Defending SGs against mirvs

[angrypyro]

Originally Posted by Crazycarl

The thing about distractions is that they are either ineffective and pointless, or they cause the other team to rage. Any class that mostly annoys people is going to be used for griefing.

Doesn't girefing usually refer to things you do to annoy your own team? I mean right now there are already lots of things you can do to cause the other team to rage. Being a good sniper, Backstabbing, Medic infection, concing a sniper, demo piping the flag, destroing sgs, etc. If something is causing rage because it is overpowered, that would be understandable but causing the other team to rage isn't inherently a bad thing.

[Iggy]

I have to agree with that. I've used taunts to make people on the other team "rage" and throw them off their game.

I do think that the spies "distraction" should be more TFC like, where it throws up false images(I'd throw in player images, as well as nades, bullets, etc...), as opposed to just turning your screen green and kinda wavy.

[Crazycarl]

Originally Posted by angrypyro

Doesn't girefing usually refer to things you do to annoy your own team? I mean right now there are already lots of things you can do to cause the other team to rage. Being a good sniper, Backstabbing, Medic infection, concing a sniper, demo piping the flag, destroing sgs, etc. If something is causing rage because it is overpowered, that would be understandable but causing the other team to rage isn't inherently a bad thing.

It is a bad thing because we want the game to be fun. Yes, owning the other team can annoy them, but if we've designed the game right, they won't be mad because they'll know they can win if they play better next time.

Of your list, some of those things we want to remove eventually. Others are just part of playing the game. If you are "distracting" players instead of completing objectives, you are just fucking with them and making them hate you. That's my definition of griefing.

[Iggy]

"fun" is a relative term.... some people consider "objective maps"(such as TFC's 'The Game" to be fun, while others consider it boring as fuck. Some people consider Mulch to be great fun, while others think it's straight retarded.

[Raynian]

People always overexaggerate buffs and nerfs, and fail to realize that both can happen at once.

Holy crap, SG's getting buffed? Gonna be OP! Without even knowing the numbers - it could be even as small as a 5% increase to health.

HERE, HAVE A SUGGESTED CHANGELOG

• Increased push value by 50%. [This will help on AvD and encourage thoughtful positioning to defend key points, by pushing away enemies.]
• Increased health values by roughly 10%, on all levels. [As it is, the SG can be taken down between wrench hits by a grenade+shotty or similar damage source. This should help remedy this problem.]
• Reduced bullet damage by 5% across all levels, reduced rocket damage by 10%. [The SG should complement a good defense by forcing the enemies to work around it, but it should not be able to hold down a defense on its own.]
• Slightly increased SG hitbox and fixed hit detection issues. [The engineer is too vulnerable while defending his gun. Increasing the hitbox requires offense to get behind the gun or wait for the engi to restock in order to kill him as easily. Also, sometimes sentries will not take damage even though they are clearly being hit.]
• Increased build time of sentry guns by 1 second. [This is to slow down the recovery rate of defense when the offense can successfully destroy the sentry gun.]
• Reduced ability of sentry to detect 'cornering' enemies by a slight amount. [Currently, the best ways to take out an SG are either outrange it, or run up to it rambo-style. This change gives offense another option to destroy guns, provided the other defenders cannot help the engineer in time.]
• Sentry guns will now continue to attack targets after they leave the 'lock on range'. This attack range is roughly 25% larger than the lock on range. [This compounds well with the increased push in AvD, as well as making SGs viable when otherwise they would lose the target in a large room.]

Some will say buff, some will say nerf. It's a tweak, plain and simple. And yet look at how SIMPLE it is. Most of the changes are very small adjustments to the values we already have. Only the push and 'longer attack range than lock on range' suggestions are significant. But implementing that changelog would help immensely with the role of the SG in AvD without hurting other kinds of gameplay much.

[Majesty]

The demoman shouldn't get into range to use a mirv. The engineer must rely on a defensive class to stop the mirv attacker.

[episkopos]

To be honest I would find increased push really annoying.

[collinwood]

If you D manages to let a slow as shit demo/hwg though you deserve to lose sg

[Bridget]

Originally Posted by collinwood

If you D manages to let a slow as shit demo/hwg though you deserve to lose sg

This is an excellent point. This is how real life should work too. For example, no matter how well you might do on your final exams, if someone else doesn't do so well, you should be failed too. This is how a society should be ideally run. I think you should run for president, Collin.

[chilledsanity]

Raynian: Sounds like a fantastic changelog, it would address a lot of problems with it. My guess these values will either be ignored or else use 10-15% of your suggested values, making it practically irrelevant, but I'm cynical.

Originally Posted by episkopos

To be honest I would find increased push really annoying.

Interesting. So what's your opinion on every other fortress game made, where the sg has much more push?

Originally Posted by Majesty

The demoman shouldn't get into range to use a mirv. The engineer must rely on a defensive class to stop the mirv attacker.

Once upon a time in FF (and STILL in TFC), demomen DIDN'T get into range unless they had a clever approach, because the sg would push them back. The push has been weakened so much that demomen can literally walk up and deliver the mirv. That never used to happen before the changes.

[angrypyro]

Originally Posted by Bridget

This is an excellent point. This is how real life should work too. For example, no matter how well you might do on your final exams, if someone else doesn't do so well, you should be failed too. This is how a society should be ideally run. I think you should run for president, Collin.

Wouldn't a better analogy be if your goalie doesn't block the soccer ball, the other team scores and you lose?

[Bridget]

You completely take out the unfair consequence in that example. The ball making it to the goalie is the only consequence of the forward team not keeping control of the ball. However, the goalie is still the one that determines whether the ball goes into the goal or not (on his team). To suggest that the Sentry Gun should be an easy kill if the forward defenders slack on their job is different. Not only is the offense making it to the Engineer a consequence of the forward defenders doing poorly, but he believes the Engineer should not be the one determining whether the offense gets the flag or not, like the goalie, and should be rolled over without a problem as a direct consequence of his other team-mates.

Yeah, the goalie might avoid the necessity of keeping the ball out of post if the forward team does their job, much like how the Engineer might avoid having to deal with offending players if the defense does their job, but that's beside the point. If ever it does come before the goalie, he has his own individual influence over the ball. The suggestion made above negates that, saying the Engineer shouldn't have his own little chance to influence the offense and should just be trampled because the offense simply got to him, a consequence created by members of his own team, and not by himself.

Wall-o-text'd

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by angrypyro

Wouldn't a better analogy be if your goalie doesn't block the soccer ball, the other team scores and you lose?

That analogy works. In old FF, the goalie is your roommate who plays college soccer, training to become a professional athlete. He's still in training, but he can hold his own. In current FF, the goalie is your little 6 year old brother. Better make sure the rest of the team protects him!

[Bridget]

How dare you simplify my points, Chilled.

Lol

[CHURCHMOUTH]

it all comes back to FF being a team game no 1 person can make a defense successful or unsuccessful.

[NeonLight]

That is not completely true. One person can carry a team and most people should agree with me. Especially in pickups. Sure they may not do everything but look at yourself exo, on a few certain maps you could definitely hold your own against a whole team.

[eomoyaff]

Originally Posted by NeoNL

That is not completely true. One person can carry a team and most people should agree with me. Especially in pickups. Sure they may not do everything but look at yourself exo, on a few certain maps you could definitely hold your own against a whole team.

Church can't hold me. (Oi... What am I getting myself into..)

1up about squeek's mirv idea.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

Church can't hold me. (Oi... What am I getting myself into..)

1up about squeek's mirv idea.

Huh? What's my MIRV idea?

[Ricey]

Originally Posted by squeek.

Huh? What's my MIRV idea?

WHAT?! SQUEEK HAD AN IDEA?! NO WAI!

[Lynus]

Originally Posted by Majesty

The demoman shouldn't get into range to use a mirv. The engineer must rely on a defensive class to stop the mirv attacker.

^this. a demoman is slower than a scout/medic and that gives his team a huge disadvantage if he is unable to take out the sentrygun and more. only a proficient demoman will be able to do the offense any justice... and that's with a subpar defense. a good defense will rape a good demoman just about any given day. ive experienced this from both sides offense and defense. you people need to stop being such wimps and get better.

simply kill the demoman before he gets in range. if you fail and hes in range, the engineer needs to do 1 of 2 things.
1. dismantle sentry and get the fuck outta there n get another gun up asap or
2. sacrifice yourself for the gun and block the mirv.

(also, im sure someone mentioned this but you can repair through a mirv, it requires a bit more precision wrenching and movement but it's possible.)


NOTE: didnt read anything from chilledsanity because i pretty much already know what he will say without reading, nor bridget because he is talking about soccer.