FF alive or dead?

[Sh4x]

Originally Posted by squeek.

To me, the great thing about FF is that it is NOT like most other games. We need to revel in our uniqueness, in the speed of the game, and in the challenge.

In a market of slow, aim-based FPS games, I think if we do a sufficient job of explaining why our game is different and how to enjoy it from the first time a player loads FF, we can capture and hold a portion of the market that is looking for something different.

If not, I'd rather FF die* trying than for it to conform to what people think today's gamers want.

* FF isn't dead until there are zero people developing it

How to enjoy what?

That you have to jump while moving your mouse sideways all the time if you wanna stand a chance to compete?

That spam is the way to victory?

But seriously, for me Squeek it wouldn't be about conforming to anything but more like making a game I'd enjoy playing. I don't enjoy this game anymore the way it is, like the majority of people who tried it in its multiple revisions.

There are maybe what... less than 100 ppl still playing this game on a regular basis? I don't think the thousands who tried it and didn't stick around left because they didn't understand how to play it, but more because they didn't quite like it for some reasons I mentioned earlier.

[Sh4x]

Originally Posted by killu

Personally I'm not sure how anybody can have any fun pubbing in this game, it's just dreadful. Not playing it competitively is a waste of time and is close to no fun at all.

What's more fun in pubs in FF? It's as boring as TF2's pubs. What is it that makes FF pubs more fun in your opinion?

Sniping is the only fun shit to do in pubs it seems. I'm having more fun sniping in TF2 than in FF. Hitboxes are all wrong on fast moving targets in FF.

[Rutabeggar]

Originally Posted by killu

Buy the car? First off FF is free which is one up over the other games mentioned. Little reward in learning the game? I'm pretty sure the reward is the same as any other game ever created...to become good at it.

You mention goals pertaining to a video game, what goals do these other games have? I really hope you're not suggesting something like the achievements such as what they have in TF2 which I'm fairly confident has nothing to do with TEAM Fortress game play. Although I'm sure pubbers may enjoy it the idea.

Personally I'm not sure how anybody can have any fun pubbing in this game, it's just dreadful. Not playing it competitively is a waste of time and is close to no fun at all.

I realize now that it was pretty ambiguous when referring to buying a car. I was referring to the replay value of the game and the choice between the different games. TF2 and others may cost money, but the money is reflective of the quality. Obviously there are restrictions on FF. The developers aren't paid, they cannot be donated to, etc, but with that comes such flexibility to do what the community desires, there isn't restriction on creative ideas, so the two sort of cancel each other out.

The replay value lacks so extensively in FF. It's either a lackluster pub scene, or an overhyped pickup/league scene. The goal shouldn't be to give achievements. The goal should be to completely move on from here. Like Sh4x said, with the OB should come a completely new game that can cater to a new community, with a comprehensive training mode (that should have been out before this game released) and the overall goal of developing a pub scene and having the pickup and league scene draw from that with new gametypes and a new direction.

Just because you become good at a game doesn't make the reward worth the cost. So you become good at FF...where do you go then? The pickup scene? The league scene? Both are weak and neither lend to a substantial experience. Most people don't want to join either aspects of the game simply because of the people involved with that. This game requires too much work to take it to the level many of us invisioned. It's time for something new.

The goal of any game should be to provide substantial replay value and incentives for the players to continually return and immerse themselves in the game. Bioshock for example is an excellent example of replay value, it's not multiplayer, but you can do things so many different ways without becoming overly bored. In TF2 you may play the same maps, but each time through it's something different while maintaining the same goal. You can't do the same thing twice. In FF, you HAVE to do the same thing over and over because there aren't enough options.

[killu]

Originally Posted by Sh4x

What's more fun in pubs in FF? It's as boring as TF2's pubs. What is it that makes FF pubs more fun in your opinion?

Sniping is the only fun shit to do in pubs it seems. I'm having more fun sniping in TF2 than in FF. Hitboxes are all wrong on fast moving targets in FF.

I never claimed FF pubs were more fun. I've never played on TF2 pubs so I can't compare the two. I'm just saying pubbing in FF is not fun at all.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by Sh4x

How to enjoy what?

The immense amount of movement options, and the balance of that with defensive skill and communication.

The thing new players don't understand about FF, and the thing that they will have never seen before unless they have a background in TFC/Quake, is that FF is basically a movement-based game. If someone comes and expects to be able to do anything but avoid combat and work towards completing the map's objective as a scout, they are going to have a bad time. A really, really bad time. They will also conclude that the game is horribly unbalanced, which is a conclusion that is false because of false premises.

Watch caesium's 8v8 scouting video. If you think someone is going to open FF and understand that that is what the FF scout is all about, then you're wrong. Until we can say that people understand what makes FF different than any game they've likely played AND don't want to play it, I don't see any reason to switch gears entirely.

That said, FF is not at an end result of balance by any means. Of course there are improvements to how things work or to how the game plays in general that can be made. But, taking away what makes FF unique isn't on the top of the list.

[killu]

Originally Posted by Rutabeggar

I realize now that it was pretty ambiguous when referring to buying a car. I was referring to the replay value of the game and the choice between the different games. TF2 and others may cost money, but the money is reflective of the quality. Obviously there are restrictions on FF. The developers aren't paid, they cannot be donated to, etc, but with that comes such flexibility to do what the community desires, there isn't restriction on creative ideas, so the two sort of cancel each other out.

The replay value lacks so extensively in FF. It's either a lackluster pub scene, or an overhyped pickup/league scene. The goal shouldn't be to give achievements. The goal should be to completely move on from here. Like Sh4x said, with the OB should come a completely new game that can cater to a new community, with a comprehensive training mode (that should have been out before this game released) and the overall goal of developing a pub scene and having the pickup and league scene draw from that with new gametypes and a new direction.

Just because you become good at a game doesn't make the reward worth the cost. So you become good at FF...where do you go then? The pickup scene? The league scene? Both are weak and neither lend to a substantial experience. Most people don't want to join either aspects of the game simply because of the people involved with that. This game requires too much work to take it to the level many of us invisioned. It's time for something new.

The goal of any game should be to provide substantial replay value and incentives for the players to continually return and immerse themselves in the game. Bioshock for example is an excellent example of replay value, it's not multiplayer, but you can do things so many different ways without becoming overly bored. In TF2 you may play the same maps, but each time through it's something different while maintaining the same goal. You can't do the same thing twice. In FF, you HAVE to do the same thing over and over because there aren't enough options.

I don't see how there's much of a way to balance it. You have a group of people who have played TFC/FF for close to 10 years now and you can't expect new players to be able to match them. I'm not sure what you can really do about that. I don't think dumbing down the game by removing key aspects like bhopping is the answer though. That certainly doesn't reward the few who have stuck with this game since its inception and I guarantee you they will leave the game if that were to happen.

I agree with FF being repetitive though. It's basically the same thing over and over again but the key is to try and master those steps. The truth is that the game doesn't lend itself to newcomers and I can't really see how you can change that. There will always be a huge disparity between the new players and those who have played for years and it's not a gap that can be overcome in any short length of time and new players won't stick around to try and compete with those who have already essentially at least from their perspective mastered the game.

[Rutabeggar]

Originally Posted by killu

I don't see how there's much of a way to balance it. You have a group of people who have played TFC/FF for close to 10 years now and you can't expect new players to be able to match them. I'm not sure what you can really do about that. I don't think dumbing down the game by removing key aspects like bhopping is the answer though. That certainly doesn't reward the few who have stuck with this game since its inception and I guarantee you they will leave the game if that were to happen.

I agree with FF being repetitive though. It's basically the same thing over and over again but the key is to try and master those steps. The truth is that the game doesn't lend itself to newcomers and I can't really see how you can change that. There will always be a huge disparity between the new players and those who have played for years and it's not a gap that can be overcome in any short length of time and new players won't stick around to try and compete with those who have already essentially at least from their perspective mastered the game.

That's why I agree with Sh4x, it's time for a new direction, or even more radical, a new game. I think FF should be left as it is. It's broken. Not the game, the game is well designed, and the ideas are well executed. But the idea FF represents is broken. You can't polish a turd, and that's what FF was when it was released. Ever since then the Dev and beta teams have been playing catch-up. It's very difficult to create a game that has a team that can stick to deadlines and actually produce a well rounded experience without them actually being paid to do it. There's no consequence for not executing your task with this Dev team, mainly because it's done for free.

Obviously it's hard to just say "Hey, this didn't work, time to move on" there's a lot of time invested in this mod, but maybe it'd be better to walk away, gain a little perspective on things, and re-release something new, on Steam, full publicity, and let the build-up to release actually be meaningful, not something where the community constantly wonders when things are coming.

[squeek.]

Umm... what?

So, this discussion isn't about FF anymore? The only reason we have a dev team working on any game right now is because that game is FF. It's not like we're a game company, moving from one game to the next, trying to make a profitable game.

This is FF, and we are going to work on FF. If someone doesn't want to work on FF, then they don't work on FF.

FF.

[redux]

TO ME IT LOOKED LIKE FF TO ME. ALL YOU GOTTA DO IS LOOK UP IN A TREE. WHO ELSE SEEN FF SAY YEAAAAAHHHHHH!!!

[R00Kie]

FF, The game for champions.

[squeek.]

It worked for Wheaties.

Unintentional TFC pun!

[Sh4x]

Originally Posted by squeek.

Umm... what?

So, this discussion isn't about FF anymore? The only reason we have a dev team working on any game right now is because that game is FF. It's not like we're a game company, moving from one game to the next, trying to make a profitable game.

This is FF, and we are going to work on FF. If someone doesn't want to work on FF, then they don't work on FF.

FF.

I used to be around because the game was FF, the follow up of TFC. There was no TF2 at that point. But now things have changed. TF2 was released (the official follow up to TFC) and I think Valve did a pretty good job at it, or at least I like their game. Today I'd much rather work on a mod of TF2 than a mod of TFC if I had the choice. I understand I'm probably the only one in this position and everybody else on the team really likes FF the way it is now. I just wanted to voice my opinion, see what ppl would have to say about it. I kinda expected the replies I got.

Like I said, the TFC gameplay isn't for me anymore. I find it too fast, bhop is annoying to me, too much spam, etc... There are things I very much like from FF but I can find almost all of those things in TF2 too (btw there is air control in TF2, its just not as extravagant as in FF, but its there and its fun to me).

At one point I really thought that coming up with new gametypes and promoting AvD more would make the game more interesting and hopefully more people would stick around but then I realized it wouldn't change things that much because there would always be ridiculously fast movement, bhop and spam.

Then I got this carnival idea. That shit would have been pretty cool imo the way I had it envisioned in my head. It would have given a completely new angle to FF, far from the repetitiveness of all our CTF and AVD maps and the usual TFC gameplay. That's why I was really motivated to work on carnival... too bad it didn't work out in the end, I lost motivation because the workload was so huge and the player base so small.

Anyways, I'd really like to move on and try something new with this team. Leave FF as is so people could still enjoy it, and make the next generation of TF, let's call it TF3 if you will. It would still be a TF game, but the next generation of TF game, not a remake of the old TFC like we have now nor a copy of TF2.

For me TF doesn't absolutely come with crazy movements, speed and bhop. It's about 2 teams facing each other, lots of different classes to choose from, a variety of weapons and most importantly teamwork. That's the essence of TF for me. That's why I have no problem with TF2 being what it is now, I think it's a great TF game and a good evolution of TF.

I just wish we could all come together and create the next generation of TF. A real new game with new ideas, some borrowed from TFC and some others from TF2. That's what I'd like FF to become ultimately.

[PartialSchism]

[killu]

Originally Posted by Sh4x

I used to be around because the game was FF, the follow up of TFC. There was no TF2 at that point. But now things have changed. TF2 was released (the official follow up to TFC) and I think Valve did a pretty good job at it, or at least I like their game.

WOW. I don't even know what to say about that. TF2 is an ENTIRELY different game from TFC and has nothing to do with TFC besides the fact that they use the name Team Fortress. You take away staples of a game such as grenades, concs, and bhop and your left with just a shell of that game. A shitty shell of the best game I ever played. TF2 is an insult to all those who played TFC, it cannot compare to TFC and is in no way a true sequel to that game.

Truth of the matter is Valve fucked over the remaining loyal TFC community to turn a profit. They did not port over a TFC:S and instead decided to entirely screw over the remaining player base by making this supposed Team Fortress 2 which had nothing at all to do with its predecessor. TF2 is a slap in the face to those that had played TFC since its arrival. You can't take away the core aspects of the game and then call it a sequel, it's a joke, a very cruel sick joke.

[hlstriker]

What killu said.

[Sh4x]

Fine, that's your opinion, I got mine.

I think TF2 is a good sequel to TFC. It plays differently, and that's a good thing. No need for 2 identical games anyways. It's just an evolution. They took out what was causing problem and went for a clean game with a good balance and polished look. Something that could be fun for anybody. League matches are still hardcore, just not in the same way.

Also, I gotta disagree when you say TF2 has nothing to do with TFC besides the name. The classes are the same, they pretty much have the same functions and weapons, some maps are the same too.

[battery]

Originally Posted by killu

WOW. I don't even know what to say about that. TF2 is an ENTIRELY different game from TFC and has nothing to do with TFC besides the fact that they use the name Team Fortress. You take away staples of a game such as grenades, concs, and bhop and your left with just a shell of that game. A shitty shell of the best game I ever played. TF2 is an insult to all those who played TFC, it cannot compare to TFC and is in no way a true sequel to that game.

Truth of the matter is Valve fucked over the remaining loyal TFC community to turn a profit. They did not port over a TFC:S and instead decided to entirely screw over the remaining player base by making this supposed Team Fortress 2 which had nothing at all to do with its predecessor. TF2 is a slap in the face to those that had played TFC since its arrival. You can't take away the core aspects of the game and then call it a sequel, it's a joke, a very cruel sick joke.

When logical reasoning does not lead to the favored conclusion, it is time to stir up sentiment with strong rhetorics.

[EquilibriuM]

Originally Posted by Sh4x

Fine, that's your opinion, I got mine.

I think TF2 is a good sequel to TFC. It plays differently, and that's a good thing. No need for 2 identical games anyways. It's just an evolution. They took out what was causing problem and went for a clean game with a good balance and polished look. Something that could be fun for anybody. League matches are still hardcore, just not in the same way.

Also, I gotta disagree when you say TF2 has nothing to do with TFC besides the name. The classes are the same, they pretty much have the same functions and weapons, some maps are the same too.

TFC had no problems with anything at all, steam killed the community for the most part, imo, tfc was and always will be the best fps game of all time, or as long as i will be around in the gaming world.

[MightyLotu]

besides from having it's replay value problem, a big problem with FF is TFC, hehe

TFC offers more maps, more players, (bots), more servers, more/better skills communities(cougheuroskillz) and well yeah, basically every other gamemode-community, probably more pickups as well
(and just TFC's greatness itself)

want better replay value? start improving the gamemodes

[BlisTer]

Tfc only got and remained that big because people learned how to use concs and bhop "bugs" to develop this whole new guns-vs-movement (g-v-m) aspect. This was not intended by Valve and they made TF2 making sure the game remained to be about guns-vs-guns (g-v-g). That is certainly easier to cater to the average gamer, but indeed has lost a big part of what made tfc so strong. That part is remade in FF. The problem is that tfc already had a big playerbase willing to "keep up" and go along with climbing the movement learning curve. In FF we really have to take new ppl's hand and show them how to do it, they aren't motivated atm because they arent part of a big community.

During FF's development there have always been voices to make FF more into g-v-g instead of our current g-v-m, just like there are voices now. But then all we have to offer compared to other games are our lua capabilities. I doubt that that is strong enough compared to the professionally developed and marketed TF2 etc.

At the point we are now, everything is balanced around g-v-m. The current devs lack the motivation to turn it upside down completely, let alone they lack the time and energy. I understand the voices for g-v-g because it is "the easy way out". But you need other devs for that. And/or wait till TF2 becomes modable, it would be far easier and beter perceived to start from there.

What we do have, is the motivation to find a formula for new ppl to be motivated to learn the movement aspects, to have a very easy training mode, and to market this all (OB port, steamworks, etc). Once a polished and easy-to-learn FF OB meets a critical mass of players, i'm confident we can get the same ball rolling as tfc did way back then, because it has all the ingredients.