All in favor of a 4v4 league say I!

[CHURCHMOUTH]

i think that once 2.4 is released squeek or someone like squeek should take another stab at a 4v4 league but it will never work unless everyone shows their support. It seems to me like most of the frequent forum users dont even play FF or if they do they dont play it enough or they dont play it the right way (pickup games) get involved people

[WarPig]

I like planning up scrims, and I sometimes do Pickups.. rarely on those however.

I don't see how me pubbing for 8 hours a night vs doing a pickup is not as productive. I think there is some flaws in the perception here, So lemme get this straight if you don't play pickups then you are not willing to play in a league? Thats kind of what im seeing being said here, and from a personal stand point I will tell anyone who thinks that is really wrong.

I enjoy the public come and go atmosphere, and I like seeing lots of people. I don't mind doing pickups for fun when I'm in the mood but personally I don't enjoy small pickups and I don't like playing offense, so I DON"T play in pickups for that reason. As I said before If a 5v5 format happens in a league I will be there. With my team if not splitting my team in 2 so I can add more to the ladder, but until that point my group is out and we continue to scrim.

There may always be more than 1 reason for not playing in a pickup, but if it was a league I was signed too I would be damn sure im there out of respect for the other gamers and teams.

[elwood]

Originally Posted by CHURCHMOUTH

It seems to me like most of the frequent forum users dont even play FF or if they do they dont play it enough or they dont play it the right way (pickup games) get involved people

lol.

[Lateralols`]

Gotta go with the DUKE on this one.

[CHURCHMOUTH]

doesnt surprise me latty

pickup games are as close as you can get to playing FF the way it was meant to be played simple as that. there are flags for a reason.. capture them.

[GeoKill----->]

Yep exo right... in Pubs people do not really play CTF the way is meant to be but that's for another thread

[MonoXideAtWork]

I would have to say that FF was meant to be played in whatever way provides the users with the most fun experience. For some, that would be pickups or matches with other highly skilled players, and some just like to pub.

[WarPig]

I enjoy both , and I enjoy 5v5 or 8v8 league play over 4v4 pickups.

I don't see anyones point on this ? There are plenty of people with skill in pubs not just pickups.

[onE]

Originally Posted by WarPig

I enjoy both , and I enjoy 5v5 or 8v8 league play over 4v4 pickups.

I don't see anyones point on this ? There are plenty of people with skill in pubs not just pickups.

8v8 would be ideal. But to have 16 people to show up at the sametime for 1 match would be hard enough, now imagine 3-4-5 matches...at this time in ff, this would not be possible. So the next best thing would be a 4v4. It is pretty much the same exact thing as 8v8, same amount of people playin d, and same amount of people tryin to cap the flag. Just not both teams are doin d and o.

I understand you dont feel your O skill is up to par for matches, but you say you have a plethora of players at your disposal. You could always play D for your teams D rds, and then put in some other guys in O. It doesnt have to be the same 4 people playing the entire time.

And yes there are players with skill in pubs. Some of us have gone to pubs and recruited players and tried to get them interested in CTF play. Some tried it out, some are ex TFCer's that dont want to be involved in competitive play. Otherwise we would go for a 8v8 league. But the playerbase isnt as large as we like for that, so a 4v4 is the next best thing.

[WarPig]

im not pushing 8v8 tho, I say again and again 5v5 would be fine. I see no reason that I have to ask other players or have myself sit rounds in a league match because we don't enjoy O or D depending on the round.

I play leagues and play a position because I enjoy it , showing up for 1 round is not worth my time. I also wanna say if a team can't manage 5 players to show for a match then you shouldn't be signing up in the first place. This isn't fucking rocket science , you either wanna play or you don't that is the concept in the first place of JOINING A LEAGUE...

You are making that decision to say "YES I WANT TO PLAY" then to not show or have a LEADER who is not capable of filling in the gaps of players needed prolly shouldn't be leading. Maybe even the attitude of leadership should be considered on why SOME cant get more than a small portion to join up.

[MonoXideAtWork]

And this is my point, instead of working on getting a valid league up caters to larger groups of players, the majority of us are stuck in the "we'll just practice 4v4 until we get enough players, it's essentially the same anyways." line of thinking.

At this rate, the players will never go from 4v4 to 8v8, even though many say they are playing 4v4 in place of 8v8.

It's a self fulfilling prophecy: There ARE enough players in the competitive community to to at least 4 teams of 8. That's not including premade teams such as warpig's. I think you guys are afraid of allowing this game to grow.

And if the game was really meant to be played the way it's played in pickups, then we would not have the sniper or pyro, and the medic would be limited to offense only.

If you don't have to do any work, why are you so against a larger league being formed? At worst, it fails and all you naysayers can laugh and say "told ya so".

[squeek.]

Go ahead and make a league then.

[R00Kie]

id rather have 8 teams of 4 than 4 teams of 8

[Credge]

Originally Posted by MonoXideAtWork

At this rate, the players will never go from 4v4 to 8v8, even though many say they are playing 4v4 in place of 8v8.

So... what is so special about 8v8 that makes 4v4 an inferior, or less wanted, choice?

[WarPig]

From my experience and personal opinion on it, I have more fun with having two large teams rather than small ones. I enjoy large scale organized matchups, that was the real deal in 98/99 for me to even get involved in Fortress gaming. I have always been a fan of it always will be and after 10 years of it I won't change my opinion on it.

I'm still confused why people are so hung up on 8v8 tho, I would love to see it but 5v5 5v5 5v5 5v5 5v5... I think thats more reasonable and shouldn't be that hard for a team who is what people call serious to manage.

I think the point is still missed tho on what monox is trying to get across, Aim big stop shorting ourselves and make it happen. We have the power to change things, and I don't remember reading or anyone saying 4v4 was inferior it's the point of pushing to build a bigger future in FF.

[Raynian]

Everyone's bitching about a lack of teams, and also saying we should bring more people in. Sure, why not?

Oh, right.

Go into #ff.pickup. Instantly be greeted with shitfests, drama about the last game/team you were on, how shitty the game is because everyone's a fag, and round it all off with a discussion on how many joints you've had recently. That's gonna keep new people in, all right. Nobody has a fucking right to try to deny this. It happens every night, MULTIPLE TIMES. The community needs to suck up who they're with in games, suck up what happened in games, and stop constantly proclaiming how they're huge druggies, otherwise anyone coming into .pickup their first time will instantly /quit IRC.

And in games, the intermediate players, the people who are new to pickups, get bitched out because ZOMG ZOMG ZOMG YOU'RE NOT PLAYING POSITION 100%, YOU DIDN'T KILL THAT PERSON, YOU DIDN'T XXXXXX (ALL CAPS BECAUSE PEOPLE ALWAYS YELL AND SHOUT). Great atmosphere! As well as dickweeds in the IRC channel like Matt and Wardy that do that shit even outside of games. "But I'm just joking, jeez! Take a pill, dawg," I hear them saying. Well, people will have one of two opinions after you flame the shit out of them -

A) They're offended, and for good reason what with all of the accusations and shitslinging that goes on.

B) They're not offended, but they think that the community is immature as all hell, also for good reason.

What's sad is that a lot of the flak comes from the admins/voices of pickups. Throw in admin abuse of their powers, and you've got a great ticket to success. Admins abusing their rights in ANY game is fucking terrible. And FF is tiny, which makes it all the worse. The community stands a great chance of growing with the current admins waving their HUEG DICKS around.

dicks! see what I did there? DIIIICKS

Getting back to league play, even ASSUMING that there'd be enough people for leagues, everybody already knows what would happen. Two of the teams (with 5 each, I presume) would be picks of...

-exo -gator -korey -stiffy -poc -spoon -etcetcetc.

The other teams would be "newbs", lower in skill (and commitment?). It wouldn't be fun for them, it'd just be all of the vets slugging the shit out of them. I haven't heard a single peep from any of them concerning starting up their own new team if FF gets more players - it's just about getting their circle of five people together and ZOMG RAPING THE SHIT OUT OF EVERYTHING.

And yes, new people do understand these people's intentions, which further keeps them away from competitive play, if they weren't already being pushed enough.

Vets need to get past their egos and actually support new people. They need to stop being so fucking immature on IRC and ingame. They need to realize that FF is a game, not a soggy biscuit for them to fap on. Without the vets cooperating and helping the community, FF will become even more disorganized. And when that happens, FF is guaranteed to die.

And I'm willing to bet those that I'm mentioning throughout the post are thinking "man, he's just mad because he's a fucking queer and we called him out on that!" Yeah, I'm totally gay for you guys, all right. Or maybe I'm just fucking stating what I feel, and what is actually happening.

[squeek.]

I don't think you can complain about people wanting to play with the people they want to play with. And I don't think a sacrifice like that is needed for leagues to expand.

It's the community as a whole, not specific individuals or teams, that has caused the downfall of every league that has tried to exist.

Also, couldn't this:

The community needs to suck up who they're with in games, suck up what happened in games

Be applied to this:

The other teams would be "newbs", lower in skill (and commitment?). It wouldn't be fun for them, it'd just be all of the vets slugging the shit out of them.

?

For a league to survive, teams just need to play, no matter what. If teams played, then there would be active leagues.

EDIT: By the way, this post is not meant to be an attack on you or anything, I just think that the argument you used is a scapegoat. Sure, there are problems with the way people behave in pickups, but that doesn't have much to do with why the leagues died.

[Stiffy]

Wow this thread is getting a little crazy!

First and foremost, I would personally like to see a 4v4 league rather than a 5v5. I like to play both offense and defense so I guess that suits me more. Also when UGC had it's 5v5 league It got really boring in most matches to sit there for 30 minutes straight playing just one position and one class(for the most part). I like the idea of 2 20 minute rounds, that sounds like a good time limit imo. Now all of this is just my personal opinion on what I enjoy, like others have stated in this thread it's not what everybody enjoys and I respect that to the fullest.

Now on what Raynian had to say, I agree with alot of what you are saying about the pickup channel. And no I do not take offense nor am I mad at anything you said about me and everybody else you stated. I also think most people that came into the channel for the first time would get turned off almost immediately, especially if there was just a pickup that ended or one that was just about filled up because a lot of people are either complaining or being a dick to somebody about one thing or another to do with the pickup. There is also a lot of people in there that are very very mean and not welcoming to the new players that come to play. I honestly try my best to treat them with respect and not be a dick to them because that's exactly how I got treated from most people when I first started playing pickups and I know it sucks and it was one of the main reasons I stopped playing for a few months a while back. I don't know if I was one of the people you were talking about with the whole being a dick to newcomers thing Raynian but I never get on anybody's ass for not playing good, not killing somebody, or playing out of position because I know their NEW to everything and if I do that they probably won't want to come back. Just wanted to clear that up. I know this has nothing to do with the leagues per say, so sorry about that.

Sorry for getting off track on the original thread topic btw too guys. Hopefully after 2.4 gets released we will see some form of league play again.

[Raynian]

@Squeek - no offense taken, I should clarify some more. The first quote is in regards to how people behave in pickups, which are usually randomized. People (especially people like gator or spoon) whine a ton about being with newbies. All this crying just continues to hurt the community. The second quote refers to how teams would be stacked in leagues. If one or two teams are dominating everyone else, that league won't last long. It's not fun to have one team go 180-30 every single game. If players stay in pubs and never do pickups, they won't be as good as the ones that do 4+ matches a night, honestly. And with .pickup in the situation it's in now, people don't WANT to do pickups.

Thing is, if semi-competitve play - pickups - can't get started, I don't see how leagues can. You might get a few more people coming in from pubs to take part in a league, but...that might be enough for three teams of 5 (for 4ving)? That's counting the two teams you'd get from .pickup already. Maybe four teams if you're lucky. Like you said earlier, previous leagues didn't work because of a lack of teams.

I don't want to see all of this effort put into league play that'll ultimately fail when, instead, it could be put into making the game better as a whole.

And @Stiffy - no, you're fine, I like how you help people out, run 'em through basics in semi/unorganized 2v2s, etc. It's more a vocal...well, not minority so much as halfish that's ruining it for everyone else.

[caesium]

practically all league maps are designed around and best with 4 defenders (a few need 5, but that's not a major concern atm). in v basic terms this is because there is a lot more to the game when you can have a defender on each effective offy route plus 2 defenders backline.

if we're going to have those 4 defenders then the minimum number of players to have a match is 8 (4v4 taking it in turns to a/d). this is why the 4v4 a/d format is popular and good.

if we want to progress to having full matches (not taking it in turns to a/d) and still have the full 4 defenders then we need either 8v8 or perhaps 7v7. 8v8 is clearly the format ppl focus on, mainly because it's an exact extension of the currently popular and proven 4v4 a/d format, and that's a v sensible approach. however, because of player numbers 7v7 is the intruiging one to me - i've not been able to play enough 7v7 to know, but if the maps work well 7v7 then this could be v good in terms of both minimising the number of players needed and offering slightly different more thoughtful offy gameplay. on the other hand it may just be a lockout! i'd like to do some testing on it tho

so anyway, i personally very much prefer playing league maps with the full 4 defenders. i would therefore much rather play 4v4 a/d matches than play 5v5/6v6 non-a/d, but would love to progress to a proper 4 defender non-a/d format (i.e. 8v8 or perhaps 7v7 if it works) if/when we have enough players wanting to participate in such a league. it's pretty simple really.