Bots for FF?? my thoughts on FF.

[s0undch4s3r]

Would be nice to play FF with bots since nobody here plays FF anymore it seems.

I went to play FF last night and nobody was around to play with.
The fan base is leaving.

What's going on with FF? I think it needs a makeover or something strong to get more peeps to play. The elitists are killing FF.

"Don't change FF cuz it's perfect for us elitists that play it 24/7!!!" "I need my BUNNY HOP cuz I'm l337!!!!" "The game speed is fast and furious and if the nubs don't like it then too bad for them...boo hoo!!!"

Well, with this kind of thinking, FF will be a mere thought of the past (If not already). Very unfortunate for a mod that could have been kick ass.
But it was made by elitists, for elitists.

Perhaps that's what should be on FF's grave stone.
"R.I.P. FF....MADE BY ELITISTS, FOR ELITISTS"

This mod should have been beta tested publicly back in 2006.
But no...sadly it was not. If it had it may have had a much better following, input and ideals.

If you want TF bunny hop then go play TFC. Bunny hop never will be an appropriate way to play a game unless the developer advertises and implements it into the games for EVERYBODY to be able to do with a stroke of a key. None of this "hit the space bar just right and wiggle your mouse left and right and don't hit the forward key but only use the left and right keys for momentum."
Nubs will start crying "CHEATER!!!" when they see somebody doing something that they can't and then uninstall the game. I have seen this happen a couple of times and it sucks.

Until FF changes to OB, gets rid of BH, fixes the animation and the look of the characters and the sentry gun, slow down the speed of the characters, it probably won't ever have a good fan base.

I really want FF to go somewhere....someday.

We need people to play it folks. plain and simple.

[s0undch4s3r]

Do you folks remember when FF was released just before TF2?

It was amazing!!!! Every server was packed with players!!!


It can happen again and this time have it on Steams 3rd party mods list.

[Bridget]

Fortress Forever should keep the classic feel, but just find ways to make it more simple for a beginner to learn the trade. They have made attempts at this, such as implementing jump stacking, so I appreciate their effort.

FF would probably be better if the Engineer was fixed. His gun is way too easy to take down, as he is. It is, of course, the class almost every beginner starts with. Then, if practical, I think smaller more frequent updates would be better than rare but large updates. It makes things seem more lively.

[[AE] 82694]

http://store.steampowered.com/app/900646/

Not to be confused with steamworks.

[s0undch4s3r]

Originally Posted by Bridget

Fortress Forever should keep the classic feel, but just find ways to make it more simple for a beginner to learn the trade.

I like the classic feel too. Even TF2 has a "little" classic feel on some servers.

Beginners? Ahh..yes...the beginners. Well they have a long road ahead of them to learn the secrets in the dark arts of the TF masters.
There was one thread I read here where a beginner said he had a hard time distinguishing the characters because they kinda look the same. I sorta agree with him. Doesn't matter to me though, I try to kill everything I see. Isn't that what it's all about? lol

[s0undch4s3r]

Originally Posted by [AE] 82694

http://store.steampowered.com/app/900646/

Not to be confused with steamworks.

Oh my...my my my. Very NICE!!! Thank you AE. I didn't check. That's superb!

[MonoXideAtWork]

Originally Posted by s0undch4s3r

Would be nice to play FF with bots since nobody here plays FF anymore it seems.

I went to play FF last night and nobody was around to play with.
The fan base is leaving.

What's going on with FF? I think it needs a makeover or something strong to get more peeps to play. The elitists are killing FF.

Unless you play in pickups, you have absolutely zero contact with anyone that could be considered elitist. If you do play in pickups, then you're lying about not seeing players last night, as I know of at least 2 pickups that happened last night.

Originally Posted by s0undch4s3r

"Don't change FF cuz it's perfect for us elitists that play it 24/7!!!" "I need my BUNNY HOP cuz I'm l337!!!!" "The game speed is fast and furious and if the nubs don't like it then too bad for them...boo hoo!!!"

An insult is the response of someone who cannot make a valid arguement. When you post things like the above text, everyone who reads it assumes you have run out of things to say.

Originally Posted by s0undch4s3r

Well, with this kind of thinking, FF will be a mere thought of the past (If not already). Very unfortunate for a mod that could have been kick ass.
But it was made by elitists, for elitists.

Perhaps that's what should be on FF's grave stone.
"R.I.P. FF....MADE BY ELITISTS, FOR ELITISTS"

I'm sure the dev team appreciates being called elitists, they bust their ass to make this game for free, and you slam them. Good job.

Originally Posted by s0undch4s3r

This mod should have been beta tested publicly back in 2006.
But no...sadly it was not. If it had it may have had a much better following, input and ideals.

If you want TF bunny hop then go play TFC. Bunny hop never will be an appropriate way to play a game unless the developer advertises and implements it into the games for EVERYBODY to be able to do with a stroke of a key. None of this "hit the space bar just right and wiggle your mouse left and right and don't hit the forward key but only use the left and right keys for momentum."

It looks pretty damn appropriate here.

YouTube

YouTube

and here in TFC, Which At this point I will bring up the major difference in the Bunnyhopping between TFC and FF.

YouTube

YouTube

TFC's bunnyhop was originally uncapped and in order to do it you had to use a certain control set up or use automation to get the timing right, that is not noob friendly at all, and in my opinion crosses the line into having to cheat in order to have the best execution.

FF rectified this by adding the Jump QUEUE, to eliminate timing issues. Hold the jump in midair, and you will automatically jump when you hit the ground.

Originally Posted by s0undch4s3r

Nubs will start crying "CHEATER!!!" when they see somebody doing something that they can't and then uninstall the game. I have seen this happen a couple of times and it sucks.

I have seen this happen maybe once, but most of the time, if the person asks for help in the server, someone will be kind enough to stop what they're doing and explain what they are doing and point out resources to learn it. Thats' what's great about this community, there's no shortage of expertise and many of us are willing to help, because WE LIKE NEW PLAYERS!

Originally Posted by s0undch4s3r

Until FF changes to OB, gets rid of BH, fixes the animation and the look of the characters and the sentry gun, slow down the speed of the characters, it probably won't ever have a good fan base.

None of these have any supporting ideas. You did not explain WHY you think the game is being held back by the way the SG or characters look.

Originally Posted by s0undch4s3r

I really want FF to go somewhere....someday.

Then play, spread the word, learn the game. Love the game.

We need people to play it folks. plain and simple.[/QUOTE]

Join the steam group, and look for when people are playing. We'll be happy to help you out. Thanks.

[TFCFan]

I did a little thoughts thing on the game a while back and the one thing that's apparent for the devs of FF is "you're dammed if you do, dammed if you don't"

If they took out bhopping and slowed it down etc they would probably loose much of the fanbase they have now. You can argue that they would grow a much larger fanbase but I think it'd be fair to say that most people would rather play TF2 over a slower FF

So I say, stick with the niché but refine it a little. Yes the characters need reworking a bit, voices here and there, SGs and a few other bits I'm probably forgetting but the main problem is the activity. The game is fairly active late nights (on one or two servers) but that's only late night and I doubt playing with bots will make new people want to play it.

Overall, advertise it a bit more, maybe get on OB, sort out those models and tweek some bits here and there and add a tutorial on the main page (along with New Game, Find Servers, Settings etc) which gives video examples and ingame courses - much like the HL1 hazaard course I guess.

[chilledsanity]

Well getting back to your original statement, I think bots would be fantastic for FF, though I think the game needs more than that at this point. Here's the dilemma I face:

Pubbing CTF = not fun, it's like random deathmatch that you have to run to get to
AvD = not much fun, defense is a joke and offense is way too easy
Hunted = not as much fun, the spy upgrades make it so I can kill the hunted every time now
"Fun" maps (waterpolo, push, murderball) = still pretty fun actually, though no one ever seems to play them.

I agree with Monoxide in that attacking the devs isn't really called for, but it's sort of a frustrating situation too. One on hand, the amount of work that's gone into the mod is incredible. The graphics, physics, mapping, models, it's all superb for a fan-made mod. Compared to TFC I really can't say enough good things about it. On the other hand though, many gameplay elements (some of them fun, some of them not), have destroyed balance in many situations.

In many situations I find myself longing to go back to 1.0. It was far from perfect, but it had far better balance in my opinion and felt more fun. People often confuse this with me saying nothing should change; that's not it at all. I love new features, but not if they wreck having a balanced game. Anecdotal evidence also seems to get a lot of weight. So if one person says they played one game to the contrary, it's like everything's great again. Meanwhile, I've observed an obvious shift in which side wins after some patches from playing dozens and dozens of games. So it's hard to know what to do. Yes, the devs created an utterly fantastic mod, but made what I think are some poor decisions afterwards.

[Scuzzy]

If you want your ideas to be reviewed by the development staff please make feature requests.

[squeek.]

Related thread: http://forums.fortress-forever.com/s...t=19590&page=2

Originally Posted by squeek.

To me, the great thing about FF is that it is NOT like most other games. We need to revel in our uniqueness, in the speed of the game, and in the challenge.

In a market of slow, aim-based FPS games, I think if we do a sufficient job of explaining why our game is different and how to enjoy it from the first time a player loads FF, we can capture and hold a portion of the market that is looking for something different.

If not, I'd rather FF die* trying than for it to conform to what people think today's gamers want.

* FF isn't dead until there are zero people developing it

Originally Posted by squeek.

We know what's up, and we're working to fix everything at all times, always. Alright?

This is a volunteer team working on a game solely because they like the game. If you want a different game, then by all means, start a different dev team.

[Elmo]

glad I'm not the only one slightly adgitated by parts of these posts.

[MonoXideAtWork]

I'm here so you guys don't have to make negative replies!

[Crazycarl]

We're working on ways to make bhopping easier to understand and more fun to do.

The player model situation will take a lot of work and we don't have anyone on the team with the expertise or the time to do it. If you do, or know someone who does, http://www.fortress-forever.com/jobs/

It's the same situation with bots. It's not being worked on, so the question whether we should have them or not is moot.

[Mase]

Lackness of respect ... Be documented before you say things like that, the ff dev team did this for free and worked hard on this. This game is made by TFC'ers for TFC'ers and for people who are interested in fast gameplay. Don't be so narrow minded, atm the dev team is focusing on new ways to comfort the noobs. Don't judge the game by writing it is made to be doomed ... The community behind this is very active on both sides, America and Europe.
Look at the #ff.pickup rates

Europe: http://www.ffpickup.com/euro/?p=trends
America: http://www.ffpickup.com/?p=trends

In Europe it is booming and America had a litle recesion .. But overall FF is back in business. Movies are beeing made, allot of people like the competition, nr. one of my motivation! There is still a litle segment in the tfc community (whish are hardcore, but one day they will accept), also the TF2 and other simular games are a portal to this great mod.

The only right thing you suggested is the elitism, they should be kinder to noobs and help them out and try to avoid puplic play . Only play pickups, if the noobs are ready for the pickups they join in, maybe clans should recruit on puplic servers and recomend the better players to play a pickup.. Just a thought.

It is true that people get frustrated when they don't understand something or need to invest alot of time in learning something. Same like on school, you would rather study something you like and that is easy then something you like but is dificult. TF2 has thought about that and chose the pad of my first suggestion. Soon FF will revive, I believe the young baby is growing and will become a kid, teen, adult, elderly and afterwords die. I also believe it is maybe posible that a group of hardcore fans will do a remake of FF when HL3 comes out. I am convinced FF has a nice future.

[Iggy]

I'm not a big fan on bunnyhop, however, I don't want it removed from the game. That may sound contradictory, but it isn't. In both pubs and in leagues in TFC, I've had to learn to deal with it, and compensate. I can't do it worth a damn, but knowing that, I can adjust my play accordingly. If you are charging against someone who is used to playing against someone who can bhop......... YOU have the advantage, because they are over-compensating for you, thinking you know how. If they act as they you don't know how, and you do... they miss because they underestimated you. It's a 2 way street.


As for bots, I'm in favor of them, because they CAN be a teaching tool. Like everything else, it's all in how you USE them.

[s0undch4s3r]

I'd like to see more than 2 servers packed with players.

FF can go far. I understand it is in the works to develop further and better.
I hope this helps the fan base 10 fold.

[TFCFan]

Well I find myself playing FF more then TFC now. The problem with TFC is it is way too elitist and people grief so often it's annoying (teamshooting, shooting people off grenades etc).

In an ideal world, I'd be playing a hybrid of FF and TFC with the best bits from both put in... and the source feature of walking through other friendly players to boot (nothing more frustrating then bhoping all the way through to get stuck behind someone walking slowly infront of you and dying).

But yeah, bots I would like to use as a 'training' feature, but one thing I would hate would be to refresh my server list to find 100s of bot-filled servers. Guess it's probably better then what is the norm now (2 servers with real players on) but okay

[Bridget]

Bunny hopping isn't a direct advantage over someone who does not bunny hop. It is a trade-off movement. If you run standard, you're moving with caution. You're more aware of your surroundings and can easily stop to take on a threat. When you bunny hop, even as a veteran, you're giving a small portion of your energy to noting enemies and buildings to your immediate foward and limited left and right, and more energy to switching strafe keys before landing, jumping as landing or queuing jumps, and strafing your view with your mouse. You might even be timing a concussion grenade. With standard running.. you're just running. You can note enemies and buildings in all direction because you have noted the situation before you stop (If you bunny hop, you usually stop and note the situation, the opposite, even for a brief second before running away or choosing to fight). You're free to take on threats if they pop up because you're not smacking your left and right keys, you're not blurring your vision by strafing left and right with your mouse, and your grenades have not been primed - yet.

In addition, you're not obvious, you're not making yourself a target. Take two of the same class and have them run toward the enemy. Have one run at regular speed and one bunny hop. Test these players against a serious enemy who knows how to play (not some newb sniper who takes shots at the slowest target because he's a baddie) and the enemy will almost always address the bunny hopping target first. He's more of a threat. He's advancing faster and he's more obvious on your screen because he's dashing left and right. Hell, while he's taking shots at MR. Bunny Hop the other class who isn't so occupied with the actions of bunny hopping could be spamming him with EMP fire or something like that or getting closer with a superior (In the sense of movement distance and time taken, they're also trade-offs) former of movement such as a grenade jump, rocket jump, pipe jump, concussion grenade, etc.

Standard Movement

• pros
  • Full Awareness
  • More concealment
  • Less of a target in enemy priorities
  • Ability to quickly change course of action
  cons
  • Slow movement
  • Limited ability to dodge enemy fire
  • Limited trimp and ability to reach hard-to-reach areas
  • Limited ability as a flag-runner

Bunny Hopping

• pros
  • Fast movement
  • High ability to dodge enemy fire
  • Advantage in reaching hard to reach areas
  • Key to being a good flag-runner
  cons
  • Limited Awareness
  • Obvious target, limited concealment
  • More of a target in enemy priorities
  • Limited ability to quickly change course of action

Yeah, they're just opposites, but these are some examples of how they are trade-off movements. A pro of one is a con of another and a con of one is the pro of another. Now, this doesn't address the beginners who feel left out because they CAN'T bunny hop. They should be able to make their decision of whether they want to bunny hop or standard run (or conc, or rj, etc), depending on the situation. If possible, bunny hop should be easier, yeah, but I'm just pointing out that bunny hopping isn't some "holy shit, you're cheating, you have a direct advantage" form of movement - to those who were unaware.

[R00Kie]

Originally Posted by Bridget

Bunny hopping isn't a direct advantage over someone who does not bunny hop. It is a trade-off movement. If you run standard, you're moving with caution. You're more aware of your surroundings and can easily stop to take on a threat. When you bunny hop, even as a veteran, you're giving a small portion of your energy to noting enemies and buildings to your immediate foward and limited left and right, and more energy to switching strafe keys before landing, jumping as landing or queuing jumps, and strafing your view with your mouse. You might even be timing a concussion grenade. With standard running.. you're just running. You can note enemies and buildings in all direction because you have noted the situation before you stop (If you bunny hop, you usually stop and note the situation, the opposite, even for a brief second before running away or choosing to fight). You're free to take on threats if they pop up because you're not smacking your left and right keys, you're not blurring your vision by strafing left and right with your mouse, and your grenades have not been primed - yet.

In addition, you're not obvious, you're not making yourself a target. Take two of the same class and have them run toward the enemy. Have one run at regular speed and one bunny hop. Test these players against a serious enemy who knows how to play (not some newb sniper who takes shots at the slowest target because he's a baddie) and the enemy will almost always address the bunny hopping target first. He's more of a threat. He's advancing faster and he's more obvious on your screen because he's dashing left and right. Hell, while he's taking shots at MR. Bunny Hop the other class who isn't so occupied with the actions of bunny hopping could be spamming him with EMP fire or something like that or getting closer with a superior (In the sense of movement distance and time taken, they're also trade-offs) former of movement such as a grenade jump, rocket jump, pipe jump, concussion grenade, etc.

Standard Movement

• pros
  • Full Awareness
  • More concealment
  • Less of a target in enemy priorities
  • Ability to quickly change course of action
  cons
  • Slow movement
  • Limited ability to dodge enemy fire
  • Limited trimp and ability to reach hard-to-reach areas
  • Limited ability as a flag-runner

Bunny Hopping

• pros
  • Fast movement
  • High ability to dodge enemy fire
  • Advantage in reaching hard to reach areas
  • Key to being a good flag-runner
  cons
  • Limited Awareness
  • Obvious target, limited concealment
  • More of a target in enemy priorities
  • Limited ability to quickly change course of action

Yeah, they're just opposites, but these are some examples of how they are trade-off movements. A pro of one is a con of another and a con of one is the pro of another. Now, this doesn't address the beginners who feel left out because they CAN'T bunny hop. They should be able to make their decision of whether they want to bunny hop or standard run (or conc, or rj, etc), depending on the situation. If possible, bunny hop should be easier, yeah, but I'm just pointing out that bunny hopping isn't some "holy shit, you're cheating, you have a direct advantage" form of movement - to those who were unaware.

Best post in this thread. +1