Let's talk about Achievements. - Page 6

Desyphur · 03-03-2010, 04:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gwarsbane

I guess for the second one I don't know what your point is for that. Unless its because I posted it before and forgot about it.

I was just reversing your achievement to not involve getting killed, but rather killing

Gwarsbane · 03-03-2010, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desyphur

I was just reversing your achievement to not involve getting killed, but rather killing

Ahh ya, I think that was like one of the ones I posted for the wiki.

I want to see a mix of ones that you do to people and a mix of ones that people do to you. Heck I want to see ones where the environment does stuff to you. lift, door or what ever crushes you or you drown or you run into the enemy laser doors, stuff like that.

If we're gonna have achievements/milestones/whatever you want to call them, lets have lots of them and lets make them all stuff that happens normally in the game so that people who don't want to grind but do want them can still get them eventually.

Bridget · 03-03-2010, 07:38 AM

I want to see a mix as well, but I want them to be quality achievements. I don't give a fuck if someone grinds achievements, because they get nothing out of it. So what if someone grinds his achievements in an hour. What then? Does he suddenly become twice as powerful because of completing the achievements directly? No. Don't care.

That's the problem right there. You want to prevent people from grinding. Your suggestion for preventing people from grinding through the achievements is filler. Let's fill the gaps of every good challenging achievement with shitty low-quality achievements that have you doing something stupid a thousand times like jumping in place.

I said I wanted a mixture of easy and difficult achievements. I thought it would be nice to have a tier system and then implement a 'bragging rights' tier that wouldn't necessarily teach you anything new, but challenge what you already know. It's not repetitive achievements that necessarily annoy me, it's that no one can come up with quality ones. They're always stupid like: Jump 1,000 times. Fire your gun 10,000 times. Duck 500 times.

I have no problem with repetitive achievements (milestones, really) if:

They serve a purpose. Jumping a thousand times eventually leads to having jumped a thousand times. WOOOW? Requesting a Medic heal his team mates x times enforces good behavior. The Medic will get feedback, he will know healing team mates is a benefit and has him playing a role, so he will learn something. What does jumping a thousand times teach you? Nothing besides you tapped the space bar a thousand times.
Don't make them too repetitive. Infect 10 enemies. Heal 20 team-mates. Airshot 5 Scouts. Repair the armor of 10 team mates. I don't want to do something a thousand or ten thousand times. By the time I get a mere fraction of the way through, I have already mastered it or understand the intention.

R00Kie · 03-03-2010, 02:58 PM

Agreed, all achievements should be something that condones game play and doesn't have some guy in a full server off by himself jumping 1000000 times.

GenghisTron · 03-05-2010, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gwarsbane

And if you bothered to read anything I have said, you will see that I have said that yes people will grind, no matter if they are short term ones or long term ones. This happens with TF2 and many other games that have achievements. (with and without prizes like more powerful guns)

If the FF team is going to have achievements then why not have both short term and long term achievements.

WELL, if you had read what I said at the beginning of the thread, you'd notice that I'm completely against achivements. Just because the devs are going to adopt Steamworks (and subsequently Orange Box) in the future, doesn't mean they HAVE to use achievements.

The simple, and most glaring fact is--achievements, grindable or not, almost always work at the detriment to other players. This game already has a fragile userbase, I don't think adding achievements will help that, and in fact, I think it will do the opposite.

I think the only achievements that would be reasonable were ones that taught newbies the mechanics of the game. Like, 'go max speed bunnyhop with every class for more than 10 seconds', something that gives motivation to learn all the movement skills. Look at Portal's achievements--most of them challenge the player to learn more advanced ways of completing the levels, and after completing all the achievements, you will have learned a lot about the game. I also know that squeek has talked about the FF 'training level', a single player type deal, maybe if that ever gets formally and officially implemented, the achievements could be tied to the training level?

On the other hand, something that's superficial and superfluous will be detrimental to the game--anything that forces people to do something they normally wouldn't do in the name of achieving some pointless goal, would be a bad idea.

Gwarsbane · 03-05-2010, 06:36 PM

And I feel the say way, I'm not a fan of achievements, but as I have said, if the Devs are going to put them in, then as long as you get them for stuff that you would normally do in game then there is no problem. Don't need to be points, can just be a little picture.

You would normally stab people in the game. Being able to do that 3 times to 3 different people all with in a few seconds of each other is hard and should be rewarded. Doing that 100 times should be rewarded. Doing it 1,000 times should be rewarded. Doing it 10,000 times should be rewarded.

You're going to jump or double jump in the game, they don't really need to be rewarded with anything. Doing that 10,000 times/100,000 times/1,000,000 times. Why not give them a little reward saying that they have done it that many times.

You're going to kill a fast moving scout. Why not give people a little reward for killing as fast moving scout with a hard to kill with weapon like a tranq dart or nail gun or rocket or even sniper rifle. Why not give them a little reward for killing a scout moving over a certain speed 100 times? And at 1,000 times? And at 10,000 times?

Is it repetitive? yes, but unless the devs are going to produce thousands of little tiny super simple to get achievements and keep making them then they are going to have to have ones that also are repetitive and can only be done over a long time.

People are going to grind if there are achievements, no matter if they are for points or even just a picture, its a fact that pretty much everyone here agrees with no matter how long they are. But at least give the people some long term goals along with short term goals.

Why bother putting in achievements if everyone and their dog is going to have them all within hours of just regular playing. It seems like a waste of time to put them in.

I have no problems with learning achievements. I have no problem with ones where you have to go full speed for x seconds to get an achievement. Once you get that then what? Well why not up it a level. In stead of 10 seconds, go 20 seconds and maybe add a double jump in there somewhere while keeping up the speed. Then when you've done that? Why not up it another level. Go 25 seconds with at least 2 double jumps and 1 kill. Once you are done that then what? Well why not have a long term goal of Go 25 seconds at full speed with at least 2 double jumps and 1 kill 100 times. Its not easy to do that 100 times, but people will do it. Now lets also give them a little picture for doing it 1,000 times, and another for doing it 10,000 times. There is no harm in having very long term goals that are repetitive.

For all the ones I suggested there is no reason why they couldn't have an achievement for one of the first times you do it. Then the next goal is to do it a bunch of times. I don't see any harm in giving people a little reward (of a picture) for doing some combo killing or having some combo stuff done to them to kill them.

Repeating the same achievements over and over are also teaching people how to get better. After all you don't learn something in school by only doing it once do you? No you do it over and over again.

And your argument that most of the achievements are at the detriment to other players is pointless because you are playing a game where the goal is to not just cap a flag, but also kill other players to stop them from capping your flag and to help your team get flags to the cap point.

You're already a detriment to other players because you have to kill them in game to either defend the flag or get the flag. Why not get a little picture as a reward for killing people in interesting combos which are going to be done in game anyway. You're already getting awarded points for the kills, why not get a little picture for an interesting combo?

I hope the devs give people the option to turn on and off the achievements so that if you don't care for achievements you don't have to get them but can turn them on (or off) at anytime so that you can start collecting them if you change your mind.

I really don't see why people are arguing against long term achievements/milestones/whatever you want to call them. If having achievements in the game is going to help or hurt the game then having long term ones are not going to help or hurt it any more.

Yes they are repetitive but only in the sense that you have to do the same combo of things to do them. Its not like its as simple as just jump a million times or crouch down a million times.

Yes you have to kill other players to do some/many of them, but well you're in a game where you have to kill others anyway so big deal.

Yes some of them have to be done to you for you to receive them, but they are going to be done to you anyway so big deal.

Yes some people will grind to get them all but short term or long term, for points, weapons or just a picture people are going to grind to get them all just to brag big deal.

Yes some people will leave if achievements are brought in, but while it won't stop them, maybe knowing that they can turn them off so they don't have to collect them will keep a few and knowing that collecting them will give you no extra points or or extra weapons to give an advantage will help keep more.

**Crazycarl** · 03-05-2010, 06:48 PM

If the time ever comes, we'll only make achievements that add value to the game. I think plenty of good ideas have been put forth.

Instead of long-term achievements, we could have a personal stats page--distance flown, top speed, best round, number of kills with X weapon. You can't really grind those because there's no goal to grind to.

Bridget · 03-05-2010, 06:53 PM

Those are better milestones than making achievements into milestones. Keep 'em separated.

Hawk Eye · 03-05-2010, 07:13 PM

Sure there is. Just store the value as a 32 bit int- when the player reaches 4,294,967,296 kills with the super shotgun, they wn the game. Kind of like Tetris.

**Elmo** · 03-05-2010, 07:23 PM

^^ lol

**Crazycarl** · 03-05-2010, 08:55 PM

No, it carries over to zero.

Gwarsbane · 03-05-2010, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazycarl

If the time ever comes, we'll only make achievements that add value to the game. I think plenty of good ideas have been put forth.

Instead of long-term achievements, we could have a personal stats page--distance flown, top speed, best round, number of kills with X weapon. You can't really grind those because there's no goal to grind to.

I wouldn't mind seeing a page like that. Maybe the devs could keep adding suggestions by users for combos like what has been suggested here so that we could keep track of combos that interest us.

As i have said there are many combos that I have done that I would like to know how many times I have done them. How many times have I killed more then 2 or more people while carrying the flag and still capped. How many times have I roasted people while I was in the air, or they were in the air. Top 10 people I have killed the most, top 10 that have killed me the most.

Something else I'm wondering if its possible if users could set their own custom achievements. Basically have the devs set up a little page where people could select specific things like jump, double jump, death, kill, weapon. stuff like that.

Then they could select kill then select a number (say between 1 and 100) then select a class (say scout) select within then select another number (between 1 and 100) then select seconds or minutes

I know there would still be some limits but it would still be interesting if we could do that along with having official ones that everyone gets tracked.

**Crazycarl** · 03-06-2010, 07:57 PM

Get a piece of paper and make a space for every stat you're interested in. Then keep a tally

I think this is a good feature. Put it in the project tracker so it doesn't get lost and forgotten. http://forums.fortress-forever.com/p...hp?projectid=1

Gwarsbane · 03-06-2010, 08:17 PM

I'm sorry but I don't have a piece of paper large enough to keep track of all the ways I hunted you.

I put up my idea of the custom user achievements.

**Crazycarl** · 03-06-2010, 09:44 PM

lol lets compare numbers: your long-distance tranq kills with my point-blank headshots.

Gwarsbane · 03-06-2010, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazycarl

lol lets compare numbers: your long-distance tranq kills with my point-blank headshots.

Going by the game I had the other night, you would loose. lol

And who needs to do a long distance tranq kill when I can get up close and carve "Gwar was here" in peoples back. BTW make sure you get that taken care of.

gibz · 03-08-2010, 01:12 PM

Achievement: Kill someone with a crowbar while both of you are in the air.
I didn't steal that from QuakeLive...

moosh · 03-08-2010, 03:08 PM

On that subject,quake live has loads of interesting and fun to do achievements. FF should have something like those, you know "mad skillz" achievs.

R00Kie · 03-08-2010, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gibz

Achievement: Kill someone with a crowbar while both of you are in the air.
I didn't steal that from QuakeLive...

Sweeeet, what do i get? =D

gibz · 03-09-2010, 01:27 PM

You now get a sword/shield combo, and a hat.
http://defaultprime.com/wp-content/u...oman121509.jpg
Feel free to run around like an idiot now!

03-03-2010, 07:38 AM	#103
Bridget Banned Join Date: Sep 2008 Class/Position: Soldier Gametype: AVD Affiliations: TALOS Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times	I want to see a mix as well, but I want them to be quality achievements. I don't give a fuck if someone grinds achievements, because they get nothing out of it. So what if someone grinds his achievements in an hour. What then? Does he suddenly become twice as powerful because of completing the achievements directly? No. Don't care. That's the problem right there. You want to prevent people from grinding. Your suggestion for preventing people from grinding through the achievements is filler. Let's fill the gaps of every good challenging achievement with shitty low-quality achievements that have you doing something stupid a thousand times like jumping in place. I said I wanted a mixture of easy and difficult achievements. I thought it would be nice to have a tier system and then implement a 'bragging rights' tier that wouldn't necessarily teach you anything new, but challenge what you already know. It's not repetitive achievements that necessarily annoy me, it's that no one can come up with quality ones. They're always stupid like: Jump 1,000 times. Fire your gun 10,000 times. Duck 500 times. I have no problem with repetitive achievements (milestones, really) if: They serve a purpose. Jumping a thousand times eventually leads to having jumped a thousand times. WOOOW? Requesting a Medic heal his team mates x times enforces good behavior. The Medic will get feedback, he will know healing team mates is a benefit and has him playing a role, so he will learn something. What does jumping a thousand times teach you? Nothing besides you tapped the space bar a thousand times. Don't make them too repetitive. Infect 10 enemies. Heal 20 team-mates. Airshot 5 Scouts. Repair the armor of 10 team mates. I don't want to do something a thousand or ten thousand times. By the time I get a mere fraction of the way through, I have already mastered it or understand the intention.

03-03-2010, 02:58 PM	#104
R00Kie Kawaii!　ルーキー Lua Team Wiki Team Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Nowhere, Kansas Class/Position: Random Gametype: CTF Affiliations: BiG, Kawaii!, MustacheBrigade, GoodFellas Posts Rated Helpful 82 Times	Agreed, all achievements should be something that condones game play and doesn't have some guy in a full server off by himself jumping 1000000 times. __________________ Released: [ Island ] [ Rookie ] [ Limbo ] [ Sonic ] [ Tomb ] [ Skydive2 ] [ Bunkerwars ] Beta: [ Argon ] [ Reflection ] [ Urbantag ] Lua: [ game_rules ]

03-05-2010, 07:23 PM	#110
Elmo Gets tickled by FF Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: UK Class/Position: Med Solly HW Gametype: Any/CTF Posts Rated Helpful 41 Times	^^ lol __________________ Support FF: Done: ff_monkey Done: ff_bases Done: ff_warpath Forever Doing: ff_medieval (beta#99999999)

03-08-2010, 01:12 PM	#117
gibz Title title title title Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: VA Class/Position: Medic O, Soldier D Gametype: CTF, Water Battle Affiliations: :e0: and n-t Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Achievement: Kill someone with a crowbar while both of you are in the air. I didn't steal that from QuakeLive... __________________

03-08-2010, 03:08 PM	#118
moosh WhenNailGrenWillOut? Beta Tester Join Date: May 2009 Gametype: mp_prematch Affiliations: [:)] - Frag Happy, babe\| Posts Rated Helpful 29 Times	On that subject,quake live has loads of interesting and fun to do achievements. FF should have something like those, you know "mad skillz" achievs. __________________ [[ ff_hotfudge - bhop_theonlyone ]] "As the the new year approaches I await for it like an case of explosive fecalomania otherwise know as diareha or the massive shits. I am gripping the sides of the toilet as my stomach produces the first hollow thud out of the anus of the year to come." DarkeN_HellspawN

03-05-2010, 06:36 PM	#106
Gwarsbane Slayer of humans D&A Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Mostly on earth though in some alt dimensions Class/Position: I'm an Offensive Defensive person Gametype: Fortress Forever Affiliations: I'm a merc, only thing that talks is money Posts Rated Helpful 3 Times	And I feel the say way, I'm not a fan of achievements, but as I have said, if the Devs are going to put them in, then as long as you get them for stuff that you would normally do in game then there is no problem. Don't need to be points, can just be a little picture. You would normally stab people in the game. Being able to do that 3 times to 3 different people all with in a few seconds of each other is hard and should be rewarded. Doing that 100 times should be rewarded. Doing it 1,000 times should be rewarded. Doing it 10,000 times should be rewarded. You're going to jump or double jump in the game, they don't really need to be rewarded with anything. Doing that 10,000 times/100,000 times/1,000,000 times. Why not give them a little reward saying that they have done it that many times. You're going to kill a fast moving scout. Why not give people a little reward for killing as fast moving scout with a hard to kill with weapon like a tranq dart or nail gun or rocket or even sniper rifle. Why not give them a little reward for killing a scout moving over a certain speed 100 times? And at 1,000 times? And at 10,000 times? Is it repetitive? yes, but unless the devs are going to produce thousands of little tiny super simple to get achievements and keep making them then they are going to have to have ones that also are repetitive and can only be done over a long time. People are going to grind if there are achievements, no matter if they are for points or even just a picture, its a fact that pretty much everyone here agrees with no matter how long they are. But at least give the people some long term goals along with short term goals. Why bother putting in achievements if everyone and their dog is going to have them all within hours of just regular playing. It seems like a waste of time to put them in. I have no problems with learning achievements. I have no problem with ones where you have to go full speed for x seconds to get an achievement. Once you get that then what? Well why not up it a level. In stead of 10 seconds, go 20 seconds and maybe add a double jump in there somewhere while keeping up the speed. Then when you've done that? Why not up it another level. Go 25 seconds with at least 2 double jumps and 1 kill. Once you are done that then what? Well why not have a long term goal of Go 25 seconds at full speed with at least 2 double jumps and 1 kill 100 times. Its not easy to do that 100 times, but people will do it. Now lets also give them a little picture for doing it 1,000 times, and another for doing it 10,000 times. There is no harm in having very long term goals that are repetitive. For all the ones I suggested there is no reason why they couldn't have an achievement for one of the first times you do it. Then the next goal is to do it a bunch of times. I don't see any harm in giving people a little reward (of a picture) for doing some combo killing or having some combo stuff done to them to kill them. Repeating the same achievements over and over are also teaching people how to get better. After all you don't learn something in school by only doing it once do you? No you do it over and over again. And your argument that most of the achievements are at the detriment to other players is pointless because you are playing a game where the goal is to not just cap a flag, but also kill other players to stop them from capping your flag and to help your team get flags to the cap point. You're already a detriment to other players because you have to kill them in game to either defend the flag or get the flag. Why not get a little picture as a reward for killing people in interesting combos which are going to be done in game anyway. You're already getting awarded points for the kills, why not get a little picture for an interesting combo? I hope the devs give people the option to turn on and off the achievements so that if you don't care for achievements you don't have to get them but can turn them on (or off) at anytime so that you can start collecting them if you change your mind. I really don't see why people are arguing against long term achievements/milestones/whatever you want to call them. If having achievements in the game is going to help or hurt the game then having long term ones are not going to help or hurt it any more. Yes they are repetitive but only in the sense that you have to do the same combo of things to do them. Its not like its as simple as just jump a million times or crouch down a million times. Yes you have to kill other players to do some/many of them, but well you're in a game where you have to kill others anyway so big deal. Yes some of them have to be done to you for you to receive them, but they are going to be done to you anyway so big deal. Yes some people will grind to get them all but short term or long term, for points, weapons or just a picture people are going to grind to get them all just to brag big deal. Yes some people will leave if achievements are brought in, but while it won't stop them, maybe knowing that they can turn them off so they don't have to collect them will keep a few and knowing that collecting them will give you no extra points or or extra weapons to give an advantage will help keep more.

03-05-2010, 06:48 PM	#107
Crazycarl D&A Member Wiki Team Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 31 Times	If the time ever comes, we'll only make achievements that add value to the game. I think plenty of good ideas have been put forth. Instead of long-term achievements, we could have a personal stats page--distance flown, top speed, best round, number of kills with X weapon. You can't really grind those because there's no goal to grind to.

03-05-2010, 06:53 PM	#108
Bridget Banned Join Date: Sep 2008 Class/Position: Soldier Gametype: AVD Affiliations: TALOS Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times	Those are better milestones than making achievements into milestones. Keep 'em separated.

03-05-2010, 07:13 PM	#109
Hawk Eye Who the fuck is this guy? D&A Member Beta Tester Join Date: Mar 2007 Class/Position: O Preferred Gametype: AvD Affiliations: [AE] Asseaters Posts Rated Helpful 2 Times	Sure there is. Just store the value as a 32 bit int- when the player reaches 4,294,967,296 kills with the super shotgun, they wn the game. Kind of like Tetris.

03-05-2010, 08:55 PM	#111
Crazycarl D&A Member Wiki Team Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 31 Times	No, it carries over to zero.

03-06-2010, 07:57 PM	#113
Crazycarl D&A Member Wiki Team Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 31 Times	Get a piece of paper and make a space for every stat you're interested in. Then keep a tally I think this is a good feature. Put it in the project tracker so it doesn't get lost and forgotten. http://forums.fortress-forever.com/p...hp?projectid=1

03-06-2010, 08:17 PM	#114
Gwarsbane Slayer of humans D&A Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Mostly on earth though in some alt dimensions Class/Position: I'm an Offensive Defensive person Gametype: Fortress Forever Affiliations: I'm a merc, only thing that talks is money Posts Rated Helpful 3 Times	I'm sorry but I don't have a piece of paper large enough to keep track of all the ways I hunted you. I put up my idea of the custom user achievements.

03-06-2010, 09:44 PM	#115
Crazycarl D&A Member Wiki Team Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 31 Times	lol lets compare numbers: your long-distance tranq kills with my point-blank headshots.

03-09-2010, 01:27 PM	#120
gibz Title title title title Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: VA Class/Position: Medic O, Soldier D Gametype: CTF, Water Battle Affiliations: :e0: and n-t Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	You now get a sword/shield combo, and a hat. http://defaultprime.com/wp-content/u...oman121509.jpg Feel free to run around like an idiot now! __________________

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