Ways to improve FF?

[eomoyaff]

I *WAS going to avoid this topic, until i decided to approach this after thinking about it for a while.

[XPelargos]

Originally Posted by XPelargos

Okay, let's try this method of inquiry.

Rather than focus on what to change, could you tell me why

SCOUT
DEMOMAN
HWGUY
SPY
ENGINEER

should not be altered?

I'm serious about this. You clearly have a lot of ideas, but putting into words why you think these classes are balanced will give you insight into how you want to balance the others.

Is it Movement? Health? Weapons? What "niche" do these classes fill that you feel is balanced?

[oaties]

I find it interesting that nearly all of your suggestions are to just revert the game to how it was in 2.41.

[XPelargos]

No reply on why the above classes are balanced? Ah well.

How I would improve a few things:

Scout - Has 50 armor that is "light". The only class who has a large portion of armor that goes unused when he dies. Either drop armor to 25 or change class of armor.
Sniper - Give him a crossbow, like the HL2 one Freeman uses. Make him actually lead his shot a little. Barring that, remove from game.
Pyro - Create another offensive class. Make his flamethrower entirely movement based tool and focus on flags, not frags.
Demo - Grant the "Charge shot" ability like the TF2 sticky launcher to make frag movie kills with a lucky blue pipe.
Spy - Grappling hook. AAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWW YYYYEEEEEEAAAAAAHHHH

[KubeDawg]

Crossbow with 5 explosive rounds per clip for Sniper would be a neat secondary weapon. Direct hit = kill, indirect hit is like indirect pipe bomb hit.

Primary Sniper weapon: Single fire long-range railgun. Charge the gun to increase the speed/damage of the projectile.

Secondary Sniper Grenade: Looks like a ball, a bit smaller than a conc. It has spikes that shoot in all directions at once. Anything it hits gets radio tagged.
Similar to the hedgehog grenade from Resistance:

[Raynian]

The reason why scouts have excess armor is so that they can still utilize it after picking up medkits or a bag that contains only health. Such as on monkey - if you go water route but eat an indirect rocket, you can pick up the available medpacks and go into the flag room at full health and effectively full armor again.

[XPelargos]

Okay, I agree with the scout armor and sniper suggestions. That's 2 down.

Definitely still want a jetpack focused pyro, more "OMG A SUPER BLUE PIPE ULTRA KILL %H %A", and dat grappling hook.

[eomoyaff]

Originally Posted by XPelargos

I'm serious about this. You clearly have a lot of ideas, but putting into words why you think these classes are balanced will give you insight into how you want to balance the others.

Is it Movement? Health? Weapons? What "niche" do these classes fill that you feel is balanced?

The way i see it, anything that involves an offensive class that is knocked below 40% of its total health (Hp and armor) before that class reaches the enemy base, practically takes away most of that classes worth while performing with in the enemy base. By example:

If a scout gets hit to 35hp and 17 armor (random numbers) in shutdown 2 (defensive map) before he reaches the enemy base; by the time he reaches the flag room, he's pretty much dead, if not before he even reaches it. With 35hp, practically no skill is applied to the defensive side to kill that scout, unless that scout gets damn lucky, which isn't the case most of the time. In a map like that, it's as simple as awaiting a scout at a choke point and shooting your feet, or wall, or ceiling with an rpg and that scout is dead. Perhaps a tad bit more work required on medium classes, but it's the same result. They are practically deemed worthless by the time they reach the flag room. If this is a repetitive cycle for an offense, who can't even make it into the flagroom, then to me, i clearly see that as a balance issue, and improvements need to be made in that area. Reduce the damage made away from bases, thus allowing a more equal balance of game play between objective offenses and defenses.

How to apply that is simply a mystery to me. Really, player skill is determened to negate this issue, but not everyone is as good as others. You have to take into consideration as to whats best for everyone, am I right?

So take away the sniper, and replace him with a new class, with similar qualities, only to allow him to perform more objectively in a way that is applied to the nature of the game, aka, not standing in one location, shooting things from across a map, and calling it defense. The sniper worked in tfc because not only was the game slower overall, but the hitboxes weren't as rediculous as they are in Fortress Forever. This is a faster generation of TFC -- every class has naturally ascended into this new generation, except the sniper. I know he can be worth more then what he is now to a team.

Those who disagree and state that there isn't anything wrong with the sniper, and their only reason they can come up to back that is that it is "fun," (which is pretty much all I've ever gotten out of anyone to which I've asked how the sniper is beneficial) -- This doesn't mean that anything NEW and IMPROVED wont be just as fun, if not funner. Did you like the sniper before you tried it? The same can be applied to a new implimentation. We really dont have anything to lose in this community.

Think about it.

Edit: I'm not stating that I absolutely hate the Sniper class. I'm stating it doesn't fit the face-paced acrade shooter adrenaline that the rest of the game packs, and negates this type of game-play with a walking (if not moving at all) Charging bullet, thus slowing the momentum of the game. Gameplay needs improvements, not distractions.

[Ricey]

Remember Improving FF doesn't just mean changes to classes, it can also mean graphical improvements and the user experience in each map.

[oaties]

Originally Posted by Ricey

Remember Improving FF doesn't just mean changes to classes, it can also mean graphical improvements and the user experience in each map.

I say we replace all the official maps with versions that only have solid geometry and dev textures.

[Ricey]

Well, think of it this way, should we add a text commands so the user can do "I've dropped the flag @ Location" or, 'Incoming Front'.

Should the official maps have better tips for the users, such as showing off trimp spots?

Simple things like that can enhance the user experience as well.

[oaties]

Originally Posted by Ricey

Well, think of it this way, should we add a text commands so the user can do "I've dropped the flag @ Location" or, 'Incoming Front'.

Should the official maps have better tips for the users, such as showing off trimp spots?

Simple things like that can enhance the user experience as well.

I personally believe that we shouldn't try to advertise the game as a SUPER COOL TOUGH MOVEMENT SIMULATOR!!

Lets be honest. How many new players really use %h, %a, %i and %l? They are great for experienced players, but new players don't use them.

Ive always wondered WHY the game was advertised with so many movement skills. Why not just allow new players to come into the game, bunnyhop if they want to, and do all the complex movement IF THEY WANT TO?

The problem now is getting a ton of new players in at once. No new player has a good experience in the game when its in a server filled with veterans. Imagine playing TFC for the first time, way back in 1999-2000, and having your first server you join be an competitive style OvD server, or a pickup match. I'm sure the experience for new players is pretty similar.

Now consider back in TFC, when you first played in 1999/2000. I can guarantee you that very few players bunnyhopped, most just simply ran around the maps. I'm sure alot of players mained classes like sniper, etc. The problem I find with FF is that it tries to force all these complex movement techniques down a players throat. Back in TFC, when I saw people bunnyhopping around the map, it inspired me and caused me to want to learn to do that. It didn't take countless players trying to force me to learn it for me to start to practice.

[XPelargos]

What exactly do you propose then, oaties?

Veterans will always use advanced movement. This franchise's metagame has been evolving for over a decade now. The reason people didn't bhop in 2000 is because they were newbies.

The trick should not be to LOWER the skill ceiling but to RAISE the newbies' skillz as fast as possible.

[eomoyaff]

Originally Posted by XPelargos

What exactly do you propose then, oaties?

Veterans will always use advanced movement. This franchise's metagame has been evolving for over a decade now. The reason people didn't bhop in 2000 is because they were newbies.

The trick should not be to LOWER the skill ceiling but to RAISE the newbies' skillz as fast as possible.

I disagree with both of you, to an extent.

The Dev team created the Training map for a reason. It does help -- by example, I was practicing some new concs as a medic on Monkey, when someone had joined. He told me they'd been trying to get the game to work for them forever but when i started watching him, he was naturally bunnyhopping around the map, a little jittery, but none-the-less, he was bhopping.. I asked him how long he'd been playing and he said it was his first time, but he was able to do the training course, despite not being able to connect to servers at first. He went through some classes, asking me if everyone was able to bhop, and thus I showed him. But there was a lack of other skills and other features that weren't to his knowledge, such as the sharking technique, and a lot of the classes special features.

He left right after mooney came into the server and joined me. But my point is, the training map actually helps new players. That's what it is there for, and it's working. I believe it is our duty as veteran players, to continue playing the way we do, to inspire those newer players, and to offer assistance where it seems lacking to them.

To add to my story involving that guys experience with the training map, after the update released with that map in mind, I've notice a lot of people in O-T who are now bhopping, concing, etc etc, who never could of before, and from that they are learning to new ways to do certain things around the maps because of it.

Therefore it's within my opinion, that we continue to grow on this training map, and add more material that teaches players about CTF, CP, class features, and a few more advanced movement techniques near the end of the map.

[CaptainAhab]

Just thought I'd add my two cents from the perspective of a, comparatively speaking, very new player.

I thought that the training map did what it set out to do very well: teach the absolute basics of FF physics. Sure, it took me a little while to figure out bunny hopping, and God knows how long I spent on the final flag cap portion, but overall I thought that it was fairly well done.

Playing in pickups, in spite of the support of numerous veterans, is still an extremely daunting experience. I know in the back of my mind that my team will almost certainly lose, and it will be because of me. Definitely not a positive thought. I feel that I am beginning to learn how to conc more efficiently, and I am slowly starting to pick up on a number of specific techniques on specific maps (such as, for example, ramp sliding on Open Fire from the water route straight to the button).

However, advanced tutorials for each map would be a welcome addition, or possibly brief videos showing flag cap routes most commonly used for efficiency. Granted, this might take some of the fun part of exploring the intricacies of the game out, so a balance between teaching new players through tutorials and letting them figure out stuff on their own must be met.

The major problem with games like this is the skill needed to succeed, especially with so many veterans playing. It's the reason QL is failing miserably. These days, who wants to spend hundreds of hours just busting their ass to get remotely decent? Besides me and a handful of others.

In any case, the game is still incredibly daunting, so some in-game guidance might be beneficial for us newer players, or punters who would like to get more serious and play pickup games. Helpful veterans are always a plus, but advanced tutorials for showcasing maps and accompanying movement techniques would be a splendid addition to the game, in my opinion.

Just my two cents.

[CaptainAhab]

Final note: I meant pubbers, not punters, damn you auto correct. Yes, I typed all this on an iPad.

Finally, the game being hard is not a problem. It is only a problem regarding the issue of bringing in new players in this day and age.

[caesium]

to help new players get into pickups, what if the admin could assign a handicap to inexperienced players which simply scales all damage done to them by a fixed amount? if needed there could be 2 handicap levels (e.g. "first timer" and "i can win"). any player with a handicap (and the level if there's more than 1) could be clearly shown on the scoreboard and on their player model (e.g. some glowing effect or icon above them).

[CaptainAhab]

Originally Posted by caesium

to help new players get into pickups, what if the admin could assign a handicap to inexperienced players which simply scales all damage done to them by a fixed amount? if needed there could be 2 handicap levels (e.g. "first timer" and "i can win"). any player with a handicap (and the level if there's more than 1) could be clearly shown on the scoreboard and on their player model (e.g. some glowing effect or icon above them).

Interesting idea... it is present in many other games, and sounds relatively easy to implement.

[FDA_Approved]

Originally Posted by caesium

to help new players get into pickups, what if the admin could assign a handicap to inexperienced players which simply scales all damage done to them by a fixed amount? if needed there could be 2 handicap levels (e.g. "first timer" and "i can win"). any player with a handicap (and the level if there's more than 1) could be clearly shown on the scoreboard and on their player model (e.g. some glowing effect or icon above them).

That's sounds likes a really bad idea to me honestly. I feel that any time you handicap yourself you get cheated out of experience. Some times the only way to get better is to get the crap kicked out of you over and over.

[NeonLight]

Originally Posted by FDA_Approved

That's sounds likes a really bad idea to me honestly. I feel that any time you handicap yourself you get cheated out of experience. Some times the only way to get better is to get the crap kicked out of you over and over.

That's how I got good at TFC. I'd say this is almost better than any tutorial. Playing with better players, whether you get destroyed or playing with them will always help you immensely.