Ways to improve FF?

[Chickenprotector]

Alright, I’m only here on ricey’s request. So let’s try and be civil, read the entire essay below before you post if we’re clear on that, let’s begin.

I was discussing with Ricey on why I don’t play pickups (this is not what this is about, it stemmed from it) and the conversation stretched to the game itself and the peeves I had. Let’s get one thing straight, things can be put into a prospective if you play it commonly be it either in pubs or pickups or otherwise.

The key to competitive gaming has and has always been to have fun and have a well-balanced game as well. People don’t like losing, I agree but that’s emotions. Restricting broken gameplay elements (I.E. the overpowered pyro) because they haven’t been fixed is just utterly annoying and it’s just a Band-Aid for the real issue. That’s one of my main peeves, you turn away some players who specialize in a particular class if you do that with pickups.

Not saying the devs, namely squeek, haven’t been trying their best with the resources at their disposal. But some of them need to be addressed like a few bugs that existed since the mod was released.

Let’s begin with class-specific bugs & suggestions, note they’re not in any way, shape, or form representative of the community. They’re coming from me, myself, and I (at least for now). That being said, some of them are actually good ideas, but they don’t ALL need to be implemented.

I can understand wanting to define FF from the rest of the pack, but you really want to keep the core of the game intact like the original dev team who made 1.0 wanted. Small changes here and there and not drastically altering it from where it was before, is the rout to go, not changing or breaking core elements of the game. With that in mind, here’s a list of suggestions I came up with myself.

1) Scout
Can’t think of anything here that doesn’t go under general.

While caltrops would be nice to have again though… you slow down the defense going after you after you’ve grabbed the flag, the issue there is that if friendly fire is on, your teammates may not seem them either, and therefor get slowed themselves and it turns into a blood bath.



2) Sniper
Most of us can agree that this class annoys all of us if you’re on offense and don’t move enough.

Tweeks:
Cut down the sniper rifle damage, I can’t tell you how irritating it is… do that, the class gets balanced. Cut it to at least 30-175 (able to one-shot anything below a medic/spy that isn’t a headshot) down from 45-273 (able to one-shot most classes that isn’t a headshot)

Your advantages with fixing it like this:
1. With this some more of the medium classes can get across the yard without dying in one shot or not being as injured as before if they manage to get across.
2. it encourages the sniper to aim more therefore less spam with the shots.

Giving the Sniper Rifle a mag limit of 5 before needing to reload the actual weapon.

Giving the AR a mag limit of 40 rounds before needing to reload.

This will balance it and prevent spamming shots at an offensive character.

Bugs:
The firing system… you need to be below a certain speed threshold to even charge your weapon. I’ve experienced this multiple times, and those who have done it as well, can vouch… you need to pay close attention while you speed snipe (or make an attempt at it). For those who’re not familiar with the term, speed sniping is a term coined in TFC (at least as far as I’m aware) where you don’t charge your weapon, pop out, and shoot a target before hiding behind cover again all while running at a high rate of speed. It’s still possible in FF but not to the degree it was in tfc due to this bug.

Possible fix: implement something similar to the bunnyhop speed cap so it comes down so that if the sniper’s above the threshold, it comes down and at the same time fixing the annoying mechanism.

Advantage: Again, makes the sniper re-evaluate his or her position and would have them make their shots count more. It also helps with sniper v sniper battles and taking them down.

3) Soldier
The controversial Laser Grenade. Not to start flame wars, but it’s worthless in an offensive situation. In defense, it’s useful, but only to some extent. But in my opinion, the Nail Gren was a more useful tool both offensively and defensively. Now while the Nail grenade in its previous state was useful, most of the players who play offense commonly are right, it needed to be tweaked.

Now examine a situation, you’ve got a defensive team, 4 players; 1 sg (and engineer), 1 hw, 1 soldier, 1 demo.
On offense you’ve got 4 players as well (as with a 4v4 pickup); 1 scout, 1 medic, one soldier, and a pyro.

With the laser grenade the soldier on offense distracts the entire enemy defense by chucking it at a particular spot with the demo, hw, and other solly. It comes out and deals damage in a radius, making it a no-go zone. But in some cases it didn’t even soften up a few players if they managed to avoid it. The soldier continues to spam, trying to knock the enemies (that he can) back into the grenade’s radius. Eventually he dies, he may get one or two or at least soften up the enemies for the pyro to take them down. In the end he didn’t really do as much as he could have if he had used a nail grenade.

On the opposing side of the spectrum, a laser grenade can only lock down a limited area, and it may not even do any damage to anything that comes at the flag it doesn’t slow them down at all you’d be lucky to use a rocket on their ass you’d need to be damn good at aiming as they were running away with your flag. Again the nail grenade is superior to the laser grenade because it has an explosion at the end that can stop an enemy in their tracks (if they don’t die to it). Now that’s not to say it needs tweaks to make it more effective & balanced.

Re-introducing the nail gren would satisfy most pub players including myself. But it would not satisfy the pickupers. So you need to find a balance. Making the damage of the nail grenades explosion as much as a engineers fully charged rail gun slug (that doesn’t ricochet) explosion as an example may be good enough, it’d be a better tool as it’d soften them up for someone to chuck a rocket or shoot them with a shotgun shell. But to be honest it’d need to be tweaked if it doesn’t work enough.

On the topic of the nails, having it shoot a complete ring constantly is going to be irritating for everyone involved. Retaining the mechanism of the Laser Grenade and firing them in an arc but not spamming them constantly like the laser grenade would be best. However, giving it stopping power as well, if you add in a small amount of push like the nail gun itself, it’d become a far more effective defensive tool (and offensive) for those players who use it, that’s where making it more like TFC instead of the original FF grenade comes in. Otherwise it’d be far more annoying to deal with if it were to be like that.

4) Demoman
No changes as far as I’m aware that need to be done.


5) Medic
The new infection mechanism is annoying to deal with. You brush by one in a pub and they hit you with it, you take 45 damage in 2 seconds direct to your health. You become severely weakened by it and makes it completely and utterly annoying to deal with and just slows down the pace of the game for the player who’s infected. In otherwords, it needs to be decreased in damage, so the players don’t get wtf owned just before the infections up. Having it do a maximum of 50 damage, 5/tick, in 10 ticks, sounds reasonable.

To offset it not doing as much damage, you need to compensate for it in some way. Now while the OLD infection system of spreading it is not good enough. But it can suit the needs to some extent.

If you implement it to prevent it from killing a player still, but allow it to spread (to a limited number of other subjects, like 5 maybe) it would be reasonable. Now what about noobs who run into the spawn? Deal with it by preventing it from spreading until 2 ticks of the last one after the player gains some health (mimicking an immune response) essentially if the player gets healed from the last tick, it will wait for two or three ticks before making a check to spread again. That and the players who get infected by running by carrying individual DO NOT spread it.

That’s probably a dumb idea, but, it’s the only one I have. It gives medics a terror tool again and it deals with the spreading problem at the same time. That and it makes it less of a “death sentence” again.

At the very least decrease the damage.

6) Heavy
No peeves or issues.

7) Pyro
About the most overpowered class in the game… fix that.

Possible rout to making it balanced:
http://www.fortress-forever.com/wiki...n:Flamethrower
Check the re-fire rate, and then check the damage. 16*(0.2*5=1 second)=80/sec. If you ask me, too high with the tier damage. The rest of the weapons are fine with the possible exception of the napalm (in some cases) cutting down the FT damage to 1/2 of what it is now while implementing the system below, may be a possible fix. If not with the tier system below, at least cut the damage by 1/2.

Dealing with the tier damage: Players have found it irritating to deal with. I think it’s fine, but some have suggested of coming up with something else. So that being said, I thought I would give an option. If cutting down the tier damage is a rout you want to go, may I suggest making a system that doesn’t rely on napalm to get a third degree burn.

If a target gets fried for a certain number of ticks they catch on fire (rather than immediately becoming set on fire) with a level 1 burn. Then if they continue to be fried for a couple or a few more ticks, it goes to level 2. Then if the player still refuses to die, then it hits level 3.

Out of all of that, that’s about all I can think of. The “jetpack” system is awesome and shouldn’t be tweaked. That’s just my opinion though.

8) Spy
No peeves, although a new grenade to replace the farts would be nice. Something to distract an enemy, like a hologram grenade, as someone suggested in the ancient past.

9) Engineer
No peeves.

10) General changes
Mario head landing: increasing the damage by some algorithm based off of the downward speed the player was going at. I dunno how hard it would be to implement, but it’d be damn cool to see something like that.

Nail gun: Give it a mag of 30 or 75 rounds. Please, for the sake of accuracy to the SNG and prevention of total spam at a SG.

Ammo dropping: I already suggested this, but give the player a new pack of cvars to drop amounts of ammunition based off of it. (when pressing the particular key bound for it) This will diminish the effectiveness of EMPs.

Kill bags: Revert for christs sake. I can't tell you how irritating it is to only get 30 cells out of a bag an enemy dropped. If they don't have any of that particular ammunition type or if it drops below a particular threshold, have the engine set it to default values. If it's above the threshold, tell it to leave them alone. Same can be said about vise-versa if you're looking to deminish defenses, have it have a cap on the amount of cells a bag has or something. The current system isn't good enough.

These changes (at least most of them) came with a great deal of thought on my part, I’d also like some input with the community as well so if you’ve got some ideas, shoot, let’s see if squeak will program them in. In all honesty, I do want some feed back, be it negative or otherwise. How would you feel about these changes if they do come into the beta then to the public?

[squeek.]

There's a lot to respond to, so for now I'll just say nailgun will have a clip next patch (your post reminded me to finish it).

[Raynian]

Just a note, on emps - while dropped bags on the ground technically explode, they do 0 damage regardless of how much ammo is in them. It's worthless for the engineer to try to dropbag+emp an enemy. The best the engi can hope for is the enemy to accidentally pick them up again, but if he has an autodrop script, it's pointless.

If you're suggesting that you should be able to drop ammunition for guns that you use (such as dropping cells as a pyro)...maybe? I think that would be incredibly confusing, and make the emp even weaker.

Maybe use the incredibly out-dated tip system to warn newbies about EMPs after they get killed by one, though?

Also - yes yes yes PLEASE revert the bag change. It's stupid and hurt engineers, since they can't build, pick up a 200 cell bag from their last death, then continue to do shit. Also, you could take the TFC route and have it so when someone dies, 1 armor is turned into 1 cell. Repair the nearly dead fatty up to 250 armor then sshotty him to get full cells. It was an interesting mechanic for those that knew about it.

And for reasons other than engi, you could eventually starve a soldier/demo defense out of ammunition, making it so they need to restock in some way.

[Chickenprotector]

Originally Posted by squeek.

There's a lot to respond to, so for now I'll just say nailgun will have a clip next patch (your post reminded me to finish it).

It took me around an hour to write it. lol Sorry about the long-ass post, but needed to basically fit it into one. Read the particular section about the Nail Gren and the tweaks I think that may satisfy both sides. As for the nails going across the map, put a limitation on the distance for them?

Originally Posted by Raynian

Just a note, on emps - while dropped bags on the ground technically explode, they do 0 damage regardless of how much ammo is in them. It's worthless for the engineer to try to dropbag+emp an enemy. The best the engi can hope for is the enemy to accidentally pick them up again, but if he has an autodrop script, it's pointless.

If you're suggesting that you should be able to drop ammunition for guns that you use (such as dropping cells as a pyro)...maybe? I think that would be incredibly confusing, and make the emp even weaker.

-- The second paragraph is what I was referring to.

That's why it should be set to the default "throw spare ammo" and maybe something like a percentage of all ammunition that is present should the player choose.

Maybe use the incredibly out-dated tip system to warn newbies about EMPs after they get killed by one, though?

The tip system needs an overhaul at some point...

About EMPs I'd be thrilled if the bags did damage when they exploded, but with the sheer volume of corpses in some cases some players can get wtf pwned if they don't pay attention, that being said, it'd may be best if they don't do anything with the amount of damage the bags do (if at all).

Also - yes yes yes PLEASE revert the bag change. It's stupid and hurt engineers, since they can't build, pick up a 200 cell bag from their last death, then continue to do shit. Also, you could take the TFC route and have it so when someone dies, 1 armor is turned into 1 cell. Repair the nearly dead fatty up to 250 armor then sshotty him to get full cells. It was an interesting mechanic for those that knew about it.

And for reasons other than engi, you could eventually starve a soldier/demo defense out of ammunition, making it so they need to restock in some way.

I'm glad we agree on that note. But also considering the general change I mentioned about dropping ammo, it may be best to have the threshold I mentioned.

What I thought would be an awesome but a stupid idea would be for a ragdoll to do damage to a player after colliding with them (if possible). Mind you this may piss off some players, it's why I left it out. If it does get put in (I doubt it), after the ragdoll comes to rest the first time, don't let it collide with players anymore.

[Ricey]

Tip system has been updated, you can thank Neon for writing all the new stuff.

[Elmo]

Originally Posted by Ricey

Tip system has been updated, you can thank Neon for writing all the new stuff.

I know he did the post on it but did any of us devs act on it? If not then we need to raise a feature task with the thread referenced in the content

[aleXtric]

Originally Posted by squeek.

There's a lot to respond to, so for now I'll just say nailgun will have a clip next patch (your post reminded me to finish it).

why make the peashooter nailgun less effective?

[FDA_Approved]

What is the point in giving the nail gun a clip? Seriously? Is it really that game breaking. Are sg's across FF cowering in fear of the freaking nail gun?

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by FDA_Approved

What is the point in giving the nail gun a clip? Seriously? Is it really that game breaking. Are sg's across FF cowering in fear of the freaking nail gun?

Reloading in general is a simple and effective way to create depth. In the case of nailguns, specifically, it adds a bit of interaction as well due to the small window created when the nailgunner is reloading.

[FDA_Approved]

It's just the tiny nailgun...

[DarkeN_HellspawN]

But I believe the snipers rifle is under powered. It is a .50 cal sniper rifle. It should do three times that damage. Also make it so that I can sniper while jumping in the air which would be a plus. Make the sniper move faster while using the scope and a conc nade wouldnt hurt either so that I can get to some high up sniper spots. The sniper class is the most respectfull in my eyes and people generally love playing against it and playing it. We at the sniper brigade ask that this class be moved up in strength and speed since we are spammed way to much on our platforms.

[CatzEyes93]

I have a stupid idea to throw out there.

Hows about you put all the weapons, hit boxes, damage taken and given, strength and weakness settings back to vanilla such as what we see in tfc. (oohhhh I used that word again!)

I guess the reason I say this is that I think they had something there. The game was a success for a long time because... well.... the balance WORKED.

[NeonLight]

Was it really balanced though or did we play it so long that we believe it's balanced

[Myth]

Hello all,

Long time fan of TFC, first time poster on the forums here. I originally started playing TFC back in like 99'. Grew up with the game basically before it started getting old and bots started populating servers more than people. I was waiting along with a lot of other people for the release of FF but due to life in general I had dropped gaming all together until just recently. Long story short, I just now downloaded FF and finally got to play it for the first time. I thought you may like a fresh perspective.

To start, I see there's only 14 servers. Most of which are empty except for one that's password protected and had 12 people playing. I joined an empty pub and waited for someone else to join and we had a 1v1 on ff_push.

Here's my 2 cents..

The Good

- Changing the aim of the SG gun is super easy. Much, much better than TFC.

- Detpack included in weapons is definitely an improvement.

- Most maps that I saw are well done. Basically what I expected.

- The weapons are well done too for the most part, especially the charging feature on the engineer gun. (Rail gun was it? I don't remember)

The Bad

- The background for the main screen of the game. It leaves a little something to be desired.

- Soldier is way overpowered, specifically the rocket launcher. I noticed this right off the bat as that was my favorite class.

- In addition to above, the rockets seem to hit people too easily. I must have got three or four midair kills in the short time I played. Rarely did I get those in TFC unless I was on a roll and kicking some ass.

- Nail grenade for soldier? Where is it? I don't know what that laser thing is and I don't like it. I'm not trying to bash it but I can tell it wouldn't even grow on me over time, I just plain don't like it.

- Standard grenade beep is gone, the bar at the bottom is okay but the sound would be nice too.

- HW Guy secondary grenade is.. well what I said about the soldiers secondary above.

- The on fire sound. When I was playing vs a pyro the sound of me being on fire seemed to keep going from time to time, even after death and respawn.

- Scout. A jump pad? Really? Remember how much we all loved the teleporter when that was introduced? It grew on some people, although I'm not one of them. It reminds me of an old TFC update kinda thing where they just randomly throw something in no one asked for or wanted. Maybe there's a thread somewhere where people voted on it or asked for it so my apologies in advance if that's the case.

- Scout. Where are there caltrops?

- Lastly, the team select GUI. I had trouble getting out of it when I pressed it on accident. Either it's my resolution or something.. or there's no close/cancel button. It should have one. Beyond that it's a little too cluttered, I guess? Can't even think of a word. Just cluttered or clunky. I'd make the window a littler smaller and easier to read personally.


All in all, it's not bad. I'm sure there's plenty of bitching threads all around this forum and I don't want to come off as bitching. Bottom line; It's got potential to be great but needs some work IMHO.

Good work, I can tell a ton went into it. Hopefully some of the issues are addressed and it gains a following, I miss the good ole' days.

[squeek.]

Appreciate the feedback.

Originally Posted by Myth

- Standard grenade beep is gone, the bar at the bottom is okay but the sound would be nice too.

This is a bug that will be fixed in the next patch. The audio timer is there, but it is broken on fresh installs at the moment. To fix, go into the Fortress Options on the main menu, go to the Sounds tab, and hit Apply. If I remember right, that should fix it. If it doesn't, hit the Play button next to the grenade timer.

[oaties]

Originally Posted by Myth

Hello all,

Long time fan of TFC, first time poster on the forums here. I originally started playing TFC back in like 99'.

]KO[-Myth?

That passworded server was the pickup server, the password by default is pickup. The irc channel is #ff.pickup on QuakeNet.

[XPelargos]

Originally Posted by NeoNL

Was it really balanced though or did we play it so long that we believe it's balanced

[Lynus]

more disorder
less scene kids
more speed
less accuracy
more wide maps
less tunnel maps
more disorder