Elitism ruining the game

[Bomber]

Hey Born in Xixax! Never knew you were on the forums. I love your name and agree with your points.

Also agree with the person who said the scout need to seriously be nerfed because now the scout is way too fast and can conc way too much. It really isn't fair for a defense standing there and seeing a scount fly by and not even have a chance to shoot them.

Some elite scouts just make it impossible for sgs to lock on they need to do something about scout!

[NeonLight]

Or you could just get better at defense. It's not hard to adjust to the speed of FF (offensive playing) after you've played for a while.

[WiFiDi]

Originally Posted by Ricey

LOOK it's your penis, bent like a candy cane!

ZING BITCH!

ricey your one of the ones were talking about.

but also it really is but from what i can tell, the etlist is a major problem here on the forums. in game i find that most people are relatively nice and helpful. so from what i can tell all the etlists don't play the game anyway they just bitch about the game on the forums. there still are some etlists but how many compared to the numbers on the forums.

this disrespect to new blood is driving people away (and its got to stop). when first got here. i was met with a wall of etlists, luckily I'm not so easily deterred.

[Ricey]

Originally Posted by WiFiDi

ricey your one of the ones were talking about.

but also it really is but from what i can tell, the etlist is a major problem here on the forums. in game i find that most people are relatively nice and helpful. so from what i can tell all the etlists don't play the game anyway they just bitch about the game on the forums. there still are some etlists but how many compared to the numbers on the forums.

this disrespect to new blood is driving people away. when first got here. i was met with a wall of etlists, luckily I'm not so easily deterred.

Wait, I'm an elitist? REALLY!!?! I am part of the elite group, FUCK YES.


God you are stupid.

[Gwarsbane]

Originally Posted by NeoNL

Or you could just get better at defense. It's not hard to adjust to the speed of FF (offensive playing) after you've played for a while.

I've played for a while and most of the people I play with have played for a while, but when 1, then 2 then 3 scouts zoom though (sometimes 1 at a time right behind each other, sometimes all at once) with 3/4 of your team on defense and get the flag with very little problem then theres a problem. And thats with SGs, engies, demos, soldiers and heavys on defense.

There are some maps that no matter how much defense you have, if you have 1 or 2 people that are good with concs they get through.

Many times since the last patch, it usually ends up with one side pretty much on defense only because thats the only way to protect the flag. Though as long as there is one person going over to the other team they just can't throw everything at that defense as they need a defense of at least 2 or 3 people.


But since I'm a pub only player then you think I must suck so I'm just whining. Course the reality is, I've played this game since it first came out, and I played TFC since about 6 months after it came out. So I'm a long time player, I'm pretty decent as I am almost always near or at the top of the score board. I also don't limit myself to 1 class and while I don't do it often, I do play defense, though I prefer being offense.

I'm just posting about what I regularly see. I figure as a regular player the devs could use information from a pub player.

[NeonLight]

Actually no I dont think you suck, nor did I say ANYONE did especially any pub players. Yes I have pubbed with you before. I am one who would go out of my way to help those in need of it but oh well.

I do agree that there is major elitism problems in this community.. pointing my finger at the pickup community even though I am apart of it too. But there is nothing you can really do, that's how people are. You just gotta deal with it.

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by WiFiDi

ricey, your one of the ones were talking about.

but also it really is, but from what i can tell, the etlist is a major problem here on the forums. in-game, i find that most people are relatively nice and helpful. so from what i can tell, all the etlists don't play the game anyway, they just bitch about the game on the forums. there still are some etlists, but how many compared to the numbers on the forums.

this disrespect to new blood is driving people away (and its got to stop). when I first got here. i was met with a wall of etlists, luckily, I'm not so easily deterred.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Iggy]

Originally Posted by Born_In_Xixax

Elitism happens. It's perfectly natural, and earning the chops and respect to become one of the 1337 is arguably one of the strongest long-term draws of the game.

However, especially with a small player base, the elitist attitude can be over strong to the point of toxicity for newcomers. IMHO the only way to address this within the framework of the current game is to segregate the pros from the beginners. To some extent FF has naturally gravitated to this setup in the US, with 2 servers - OT and Talos - one oriented more towards public friendly casual fun and the other aimed more at 'league-style pub' play. TFC also had this dynamic, between Drippy's-style and Odin's-style servers.

My hope is that this necessity can be more formally recognized, and servers organized to make this spectrum of skill clear to the players and easy to understand and manage for server operators.

- Servers names can include a skill level in the title, e.g. Drippy's Pub for Beginners, Odins PRO Graveyard.
- Server MOTD can give notice of the expected experience level and playstyle, along with relevant rules (everything goes, yard D, O v D, etc.)
- With enough servers, the PRO servers can be invite only and password protected
- Server-side mods could keep track of player success and make recommendations to change servers 'You seem to be owning these newbs! How about trying your skills at PRO server XXX' or 'Getting your teeth kicked in? How about friendly match with fellow newbs at Beginner server YYY'

If we're down to only one server, though, well...SOL

Those are some very good ideas. No chance for them making 2.42 patch, but definitely something to look at in the future(maybe 2.5). Not all of them can be hard coded, and would require cooperation from server owners/moderators. You would probably end up with someone refusing to point players to certain other servers, because of who runs it(or clan affiliation), or the rules, or because they've been banned from there.

However, if the childish shit could be put aside, it would work very well.

[Bridget]

Originally Posted by Bomber

Some elite scouts just make it impossible for sgs to lock on they need to do something about scout!

No. They need to do something about the Sentry Gun.

@chilledsanity: I think that's another huge problem right now. The development team, which seems to appeal to the pickup community, shares its animosity toward the public community. Seriously, I can't count the number of times the development team has just outright trash-talked public players. "Oh, they don't know how to play Fortress Forever correctly. We're not balancing the game around pubs because some idiots don't know how to play Fortress Forever." Which is an ironic statement, because Fortress Forever doesn't come "out of the box" with an explaination for how it's supposed to be played. You have to come into the fray already equipped with the knowledge on how pickups work. But, of course, the denial-based development team blames the public community instead of their neglect for structure.

I was talking to one developer recently about the reasons why the development team refused to allow someone into the beta. The rumor floating around was that this person had reimplemented a mechanic (that the community had liked) on his servers, which in turn angered the development team. I brought up the point that one of the new items in the beta worked essentially the same way. This developer tried to writhe his way out of the fact that they are one in the same with comments like "Well, with this new item, someone has to be close to the its after-effect for it to be useful", which was, of course, incorrect because the effect the item applies to those inside of its after-effect is a detriment whether or not someone is there to capitalize on it, much like the item that was reimplemented after removal.

Said developer ignored this, and instead went on to blatantly attack the person in question, saying "He doesn't seem like he should belong in beta. He seems like an idiot who wouldn't contribute much to the development of the mod." Really? That's what you think about the people who give your creation power? You're cherry-picking those that already agree with your development stance? How will that result in anything good? I thought the whole purpose was to get mixed feedback in an effort to balance the game objectively? I guess not.

Seriously, the development team is a delusional group of people who think they can do nothing but good, and as a result need no help. (Unless, of course, this help is not involved with a creative process, and is instead labor that improves a mechanic the development team thought up in the first place. That's the whole purpose of beta, it would seem. No matter how creative you are or how many items you purpose, at the end of the day, you're just testing and improving their contributions. They need no alternatives! Their ideas are the best! When you have the best, what can be said of the rest? It's not the best. So, fuck it.

They think the public community is nothing but a bunch of idiots. This is why they refuse to make the game more transparent. This is why they don't really give a shit for the public's opinion. This is why Fortress Forever sucks. There's a big bullshit reason for the game's secrecy. "Oh, we have to make the game secretive. If we were to be transparent about it, there would be rumors galore." Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. "We have to cover these windows to block out the sun-light, because if we keep them open, the room will be pitch black!" Wonderful logic! It's like the most fundamental understandings of human behavior are alien to them. "What? Develop a game for the people playing it? That's absolutely insane." Huh. I wonder why Fortress Forever is well below the surface. Aside from things I agree cannot be tamed (competition from tf2, not having a paid development team, etc) I wonder what it could be?

[WiFiDi]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

Couldn't have said it better myself.

i apreciate the lvl you stooped to correct my spelling even though i know you could understand it.

also nice post bridget.

[Dexter]

Originally Posted by Bridget

No. They need to do something about the Sentry Gun.

@chilledsanity: I think that's another huge problem right now. The development team, which seems to appeal to the pickup community, shares its animosity toward the public community. Seriously, I can't count the number of times the development team has just outright trash-talked public players. "Oh, they don't know how to play Fortress Forever correctly. We're not balancing the game around pubs because some idiots don't know how to play Fortress Forever." Which is an ironic statement, because Fortress Forever doesn't come "out of the box" with an explaination for how it's supposed to be played. You have to come into the fray already equipped with the knowledge on how pickups work. But, of course, the denial-based development team blames the public community instead of their neglect for structure.

I was talking to one developer recently about the reasons why the development team refused to allow someone into the beta. The rumor floating around was that this person had reimplemented a mechanic (that the community had liked) on his servers, which in turn angered the development team. I brought up the point that one of the new items in the beta worked essentially the same way. This developer tried to writhe his way out of the fact that they are one in the same with comments like "Well, with this new item, someone has to be close to the its after-effect for it to be useful", which was, of course, incorrect because the effect the item applies to those inside of its after-effect is a detriment whether or not someone is there to capitalize on it, much like the item that was reimplemented after removal.

Said developer ignored this, and instead went on to blatantly attack the person in question, saying "He doesn't seem like he should belong in beta. He seems like an idiot who wouldn't contribute much to the development of the mod." Really? That's what you think about the people who give your creation power? You're cherry-picking those that already agree with your development stance? How will that result in anything good? I thought the whole purpose was to get mixed feedback in an effort to balance the game objectively? I guess not.

Seriously, the development team is a delusional group of people who think they can do nothing but good, and as a result need no help. (Unless, of course, this help is not involved with a creative process, and is instead labor that improves a mechanic the development team thought up in the first place. That's the whole purpose of beta, it would seem. No matter how creative you are or how many items you purpose, at the end of the day, you're just testing and improving their contributions. They need no alternatives! Their ideas are the best! When you have the best, what can be said of the rest? It's not the best. So, fuck it.

They think the public community is nothing but a bunch of idiots. This is why they refuse to make the game more transparent. This is why they don't really give a shit for the public's opinion. This is why Fortress Forever sucks. There's a big bullshit reason for the game's secrecy. "Oh, we have to make the game secretive. If we were to be transparent about it, there would be rumors galore." Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. "We have to cover these windows to block out the sun-light, because if we keep them open, the room will be pitch black!" Wonderful logic! It's like the most fundamental understandings of human behavior are alien to them. "What? Develop a game for the people playing it? That's absolutely insane." Huh. I wonder why Fortress Forever is well below the surface. Aside from things I agree cannot be tamed (competition from tf2, not having a paid development team, etc) I wonder what it could be?

This isn't true at all but ok

[Bomber]

Originally Posted by Gwarsbane

I've played for a while and most of the people I play with have played for a while, but when 1, then 2 then 3 scouts zoom though (sometimes 1 at a time right behind each other, sometimes all at once) with 3/4 of your team on defense and get the flag with very little problem then theres a problem. And thats with SGs, engies, demos, soldiers and heavys on defense.

There are some maps that no matter how much defense you have, if you have 1 or 2 people that are good with concs they get through.

Many times since the last patch, it usually ends up with one side pretty much on defense only because thats the only way to protect the flag. Though as long as there is one person going over to the other team they just can't throw everything at that defense as they need a defense of at least 2 or 3 people.


But since I'm a pub only player then you think I must suck so I'm just whining. Course the reality is, I've played this game since it first came out, and I played TFC since about 6 months after it came out. So I'm a long time player, I'm pretty decent as I am almost always near or at the top of the score board. I also don't limit myself to 1 class and while I don't do it often, I do play defense, though I prefer being offense.

I'm just posting about what I regularly see. I figure as a regular player the devs could use information from a pub player.

I agree, I have played clan style play as well, and the scout as it is now is way faster it seems than before the updates. Sg's can't stop them and demo and soldier are just left wondering what the hell just flew by and they had one shot to try and hit the thing going 1000 miles per hour.

They need to slow him down or give the scout 1 conc would be good or 2 and slow him down. The amount of speed a scout can get is way out of proportion to class balance. The medic is hardly played on pickups at all because of the scouts lopsided speed.

[Bridget]

Nah, it is.

[chilledsanity]

Bridget: Wow, that's rather damning. If that's really what's been going on, then I guess elitism really IS the primary blame for FF's current state. Even with TF2, if there was a strong community focus, FF could still be thriving as more of a niche mod instead of gasping like it currently is. If this is what has been happening all along, then I guess I feel like an idiot for caring as much about the mod as I have if it's on an irreversible crash course

One thing I've wondered about for a while is the current policy on development. The current devs had made it clear that they're the ones that make the decisions about FF and they are the ones determining its direction. It's underworkings are secret and are a top-down, not bottom-up operation. Being on the beta does not influence this. Contributing as a new dev is still easily overruled, and from what you're saying, it sounds like they're careful who they chose. I can actually understand this viewpoint if they were the original creators of the mod. Speaking from experience, being a creator of something original can make you protective of it, especially if you have a clear vision of what exactly is you want to accomplish. However as I understand it, the dev team is no longer composed of its original creators, they abandoned the project a while back. The logical conclusion in that situation (to me) is to open the game up to the community and focus on what everyone wants, as the game no longer belongs to anyone, and thus the people who still care about it should determine its direction. Instead, the NEW devs are dictating terms of the game and making the decisions for us. So my question is, what "right" do the devs have for this stance, other than currently being in control? Why are their decisions more important over someone who wants to contribute and alter the game, but didn't know the right people at the right time? It feels like a textbook definition of an oligarchy. If the game had only improved over the years, I honestly wouldn't care. Instead the gameplay's gotten worse than I ever would have predicted, so I kind of view the current dev team as usurpers who came in and ruined the game, versus the original dev team, who made something I sincerely liked.

You can argue that the dev team is the one putting in the work, so they've earned the right to shut others out, but that doesn't really hold up. The majority of the work was done by other people. If the mod belonged to anybody, it was them, and they're mostly gone now. I would bet money if FF completely opened up the code, some people would swoop in and mod the hell out of it to make a game that they considered better. Unless you're talking cosmetic changes, it's understandable people don't want to slave away at the mod if they feel like they're going in against an established groupthink pattern and the mod is mostly mutated into a game they don't want. By having access to it first when the dev team dissolved and shutting others out, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy of having done more work.

You can also argue that the devs' status as dictating the direction of the mod is necessary because the community doesn't know it wants. My memory may be failing me, but I've NEVER known the devs to make a news post or anything to that extent, reaching out to the community, asking them what they want. In general they browse forums silently and reply haphazardly to some threads. Maybe later some of these are discussed in private like it's some clandestine agenda, who knows, we certainly don't. But seriously, when have the DEVS made a news post saying something like:

"hey guys, numbers are dwindling on the mod, we need to figure out how to get players back and bring in new people. We want your feedback and from anyone who might be interested, what do YOU want to see in this game?"

Of course not, we know that's a joke. Every once in a while, a forum user makes a post like this and if a dev comments at all, it's to the tune of "what makes you think you know what the direction of FF is?"

Again, remember this is mostly coming from people who became developers of FF AFTER the fact.

Here's a question for the devs: Under what circumstances would you consider opening up the original code to FF (under the assumption that all the original coders were credited?)


Dexter: Nice one-line rebuttal to multiple specific accusations with no details, no clarification, no defense, or any indication that you even know what he might be referring to. Helps restore confidence.

[Ricey]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

Dexter: Nice one-line rebuttal to multiple specific accusations with no details, no clarification, no defense, or any indication that you even know what he might be referring to. Helps restore confidence.

Dexter knows what he is referring to.

[Dexter]

I'd do all of the above but its not like he had any proof. Besides, he thinks the dev team is composed of elite pickup players when most of us just pub for fun. so apparently, we hate ourselves

All that aside what on earth makes you think I'd go out of my way to prove something to someone who goes off talking about how dead FF is? lol

" the community doesn't know it wants."
I mean look around, what few people are here are busy shouting contradicting things. The few things that do overlap have probably already been addressed. It doesn't help a few key people think they are the community as a whole

[Bomber]

Tonight I tried to join a pickup and joined and have both map packs installed, but they picked a map that isn't in either of the map packs, some obscure map and got kicked from the channel because I didn't have the map to join the server, and the server wouldn't let me dl it.

[NeonLight]

Skillet you dont get it. YOU didn't put the effort into downloading an unzipping program to INSTALL the map.

[killu]

Originally Posted by Bomber

Tonight I tried to join a pickup and joined and have both map packs installed, but they picked a map that isn't in either of the map packs, some obscure map and got kicked from the channel because I didn't have the map to join the server, and the server wouldn't let me dl it.

08:23:58 ) ( @ralphie-G ) http://www.crystalcity.hl2sm.com/ff_schrape_b4.rar
( 08:24:00 ) ( @ralphie-G ) link works fine
( 08:24:03 ) ( @ralphie-G ) you have a minute to join
( 08:24:12 ) ( Skillet ) i don thave rar program and dont want to install a rar program
( 08:24:22 ) ( @ralphie-G ) well you cant play ff then

08:16:39 ) ( Skillet ) can you send me the map files un rared i dont want to dl a rar program
( 08:24:13 ) ( ralphie-G ) DL winrar you retard
( 08:24:25 ) ::: ( ¤ ) Kick: Skillet was kicked from #ff.pickup by ChanServ:#ff.pickup [ (ralphie-G) Bye. ]
( 08:24:28 ) ( Skillet ) i only have a few programs on my computer i dont want more

[Bridget]

Originally Posted by Dexter

I'd do all of the above but its not like he had any proof. Besides, he thinks the dev team is composed of elite pickup players when most of us just pub for fun. so apparently, we hate ourselves

The game is purposely modeled around the competitive crowd. It therefore appeals to them. I spoke with one of the developers about a plan to make the game even more competitive, who said the change was necessary because Fortress Forever has never really had a direction, and that everyone dicking around in pubs was doing it wrong. Really? Okay, but is it their fault? Is it the public community's fault this game has NEXT TO NO STRUCTURE for the public players? No. That's the development team's fault. They and the people they appeal to get by easily with an IRC channel, a pickup bot, and some agreed upon rules set beforehand. People in a pub don't have that luxury. They don't have the luxury of structure. They just have a map with some flags that they capture repeatedly for some arbitrary points.

Originally Posted by Dexter

All that aside what on earth makes you think I'd go out of my way to prove something to someone who goes off talking about how dead FF is? lol

This is typical Dexter behavior. The same person who flipped out when I pointed out that nothing was being done on a mechanic months after it had been proposed. I simply stated this was usual of the development team. Announce a big change. Focus on it for a week. Give up on it and focus elsewhere. That's why the Engineer is half-worked on in the beta. That's why we can't even roll out fucking real Engineer changes for 2.42 (There are talks about minor changes here and there to tie you guys over in the meantime, but if it were that simple, why weren't these changes made long ago to tie you guys over instead of having the lack of these changes rape balance for a year or so and discourage people away from playing?)

Dexter then told me that I was being stubborn, and that it was wrong of me to conclude nothing was being worked on simply because I could not see it being worked on. He said that the development work was logged on a different SVN. Okay, that's fine, but take a screenshot. Show me evidence its being worked on. It's that simple. All I got was "Why do I need to prove anything to you?" or "You can just go into the game and see it for yourself. Just go into the menu and click x." Long story short, nothing had changed, and there was no newly included "x" menu option. He still refuses to give me evidence that it's being worked on. So? Lulz.

Originally Posted by Dexter

" the community doesn't know it wants."
I mean look around, what few people are here are busy shouting contradicting things. The few things that do overlap have probably already been addressed. It doesn't help a few key people think they are the community as a whole

This is why I told you to put Fortress Forever up on Steamworks. It would entice a ton of new players who could constitute that community you guys would hopefully then consider. But, of course, that will never work. One day, you're telling me it's a simple follow-up email to Valve to get Fortress Forever on Steamworks. The next day, you're telling me the follow-up email has expired. The third day, you're telling me that Fortress Forever will never make it on Steamworks due to the lack of a dedicated development team or something. Well, then, we're all fucked.