Dear FF,

Bridget · 09-30-2010, 01:26 AM

Dear Fortress Forever Community,

Please stop bitching that the only thing public players can do is 'deathmatch'. When you create an entire game that requires a giant skill requirement just to play on a basic competitive level, then you completely alienate new players. When a beginner is unable to bunnyhop across the yard fast enough to avoid the inevitable sniper fire, then what else can he do beside play in-base deathmatch-defense? When a beginner is unable to air-strafe and control a concussion jump, then how will he ever be able to bypass the defenders to get to the flag? What are objectives if you can't reach them? What is organized play if you have to have immediate skill to experience it?

This is the reason Fortress Forever sucks for the beginner. There's no compensation, no integration, nothing remains except deathmatching when the beginner realizes he lacks the minimum skill requirements to play the game on the same level as everyone else. When you can't bunnyhop, you get outrun. When you can't air-shot, people just fly past you. When you can't keep your sentry gun up, you're unable to contribute to a defensive objective. So on, and so on, and fucking so on. Deathmatching, as expected, gets old. Fortress Forever, therefore, gets old.

So, give me a break. Fortress Forever doesn't fail because 'it's a mod, man.' Garry's mod was a mod. Counter-Strike and Day of Defeat, too, were mods. They gathered enough support to go on to be retail games, because there was at-least some level of beginner integration. These games had learning curves, but they were fun to travel across. Garry's mod is extremely overwhelming when you first start experimenting, but the learning process is fun and amusing. It's encouraging. What's there to Fortress Forever? Congratulations, you've learned how to prime grenades, now there's only a dozen other mechanics that give everyone else an advantage over you that are not not fun to learn and/or are counter-intuitive to learn (eg bunny-hop, strafe-jump, conc-aim, etc).

Just a friendly reminder from, as you would call me: "Fortress Forever's #1 Troll"

NeonLight · 09-30-2010, 02:25 AM

Did this thread really need to be created? Sorry Bri :/

Bridget · 09-30-2010, 02:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeoNL

Did this thread really need to be created? Sorry Bri :/

Who knows?

Quote:

Fortress Forever that is "newb" friendly = TF2 (and no one wants that)

Ha! ha! Haaa~ No. Making the game more accessible to beginners doesn't turn it into Team Fortress 2. Take your fallacious slippery slope argument elsewhere. What's with everyone making this claim? Is it a way to scare people into disagreeing with making the game more accessible? No wonder this game is going downhill. No one has any imaginative ability? No one can think for themselves? Is it nothing but appeals to tradition and slippery slopes all the way down?

Ventry(Leo Wainker) · 09-30-2010, 03:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bridget

What's with everyone making this claim?

Perhaps because there is more truth to it than you are willing to admit and because anyone elses opinion can't possibly be as valid as yours right?
Your ego won't let you admit that other opinions are just as important as yours.
Your "opinions" while interesting don't suit my palette at all sir so, please insert them where the sun doesn't shine.

I'm not sure if any of the ORIGINAL dev team are still around?
If they are perhaps the can confirm my theory?

My opinion of what the original FF devs were trying to do was a modern gfx engine version of TFC. A tribute to TFC if you like. If my interpretation of that mandate is true then this is what the current devs should be focusing on. Making FF more TFC like. (unless the current devs have shifted focus. That would invalidate my theory)

Some changes were made to overcome issues.
Some changes were made to increase class usefulness.
Some changes were made to increase fun.
NO changes should be made to "dumb down".
"Dumbing" down is a backward step. How many backward steps are you willing to take for the sake of player numbers?

In the end devs do as you will and is your right to do. Just don't let Bridget "brow beat" you into anything "stupid".
If you were to implement his suggestions and they were to fail, Bridget would just fade into the either leaving you the devs to clean up the mess or just abandon the whole mod.

Bridget. If your so "gung-ho" about your ideas then why don't you "put your money where your mouth is" and learn the programming skills necessary to be a part of the dev team.
If not then your only "blowing hot air".

Bridget · 09-30-2010, 04:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ventry(Leo Wainker)

Perhaps because there is more truth to it than you are willing to admit and because anyone elses opinion can't possibly be as valid as yours right?
Your ego won't let you admit that other opinions are just as important as yours.
Your "opinions" while interesting don't suit my palette at all sir so, please insert them where the sun doesn't shine.

Yes, as a matter of fact, I think my opinions are better than others. Otherwise, they wouldn't be my opinions, now would that? (LOLOGIC) I don't consider the opinions of people who can lie through their teeth against the fact that Fortress Forever is hard for beginners to integrate into.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ventry(Leo Wainker)

My opinion of what the original FF devs were trying to do was a modern gfx engine version of TFC. A tribute to TFC if you like. If my interpretation of that mandate is true then this is what the current devs should be focusing on. Making FF more TFC like. (unless the current devs have shifted focus. That would invalidate my theory)

I think multiple devs have stated that they want to create a Team Fortress game not a Team Fortress Classic game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ventry(Leo Wainker)

NO changes should be made to "dumb down".
"Dumbing" down is a backward step. How many backward steps are you willing to take for the sake of player numbers?

Here we go with the slippery slope argument and the fallacious assumption that making the game more accessible for new players will somehow dumb it down for everyone else. Here we fucking go.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ventry(Leo Wainker)

Bridget. If your so "gung-ho" about your ideas then why don't you "put your money where your mouth is" and learn the programming skills necessary to be a part of the dev team.
If not then your only "blowing hot air".

Does not compute. I hope you're not making the argument here that until I have experienced x, I can not express an opinion on x? Have you been murdered, Leo? Then how can you possibly conclude murder is immoral? Yeah, see how badly your logic falls apart in another context? Oh lawd.

Ventry(Leo Wainker) · 09-30-2010, 04:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bridget

Does not compute. I hope you're not making the argument here that until I have experienced x, I can not express an opinion on x? Have you been murdered, Leo? Then how can you possibly conclude murder is immoral? Yeah, see how badly your logic falls apart in another context? Oh lawd.

No, but I have seen (first hand) the devastation that murder leaves behind.
See how bad your logic is. (I doubt you will because you are ignorant)

Your "ideas" are not best for everyone. <------- TRUTH RIGHT HERE.

[AE] 82694 · 10-02-2010, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeoNL

Did this thread really need to be created? Sorry Bri :/

This. I can't believe you guys are still letting him pull this shit. Does he have soft lips or a tight ass so he's worth all the trouble of keeping around?

GenghisTron · 10-02-2010, 09:56 PM

Someone's mad.

Bridget · 10-03-2010, 02:29 AM

I've never had this many people on my e-peen at one time.

Christian · 10-03-2010, 12:36 PM

I agree that the learning curve is too high for this game. I was an avid TFC player, and the transition at the release of FF was not too difficult for me. But as all things go, I eventually lost interest in the game, and played other games for some time. (including TF2) When I returned to the game, there were far less players, and the players that were still play easily outskilled me with far more successful conc jumps and awareness on maps I previously enjoyed, when the community was as new to the game as I was. Unfortunately I did not possess the patience nor interest to continue up the skill hill, and eventually quit the game all together.
What I would like to see would be the option to remove bunny hopping, conc jumping, strafe jumping and all these other dated concepts that scare newcomers away from a mod with great potential.

Ventry(Leo Wainker) · 09-30-2010, 02:27 AM

Fortress Forever that is "newb" friendly = TF2 (and no one wants that)

Yes, you are FF's #1 troll.

You need to go into Gary's Mod, build a bridge and GET OVER IT.

Everyone is aware of YOUR opinion. STFU and stop trying to "bully" everyone into seeing things your way.
Just because you say so doesn't make it so.

CHURCHMOUTH · 09-30-2010, 02:46 AM

i feel the exact same way about counterstrike 1.6 and its the number 1 multiplayer game on the net

Bridget · 09-30-2010, 03:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ventry(Leo Wainker)

You need to go into Gary's Mod, build a bridge and GET OVER IT.

Iggy · 09-30-2010, 03:26 AM

TFC was originally a{HL} mod as well. It had all of the mechanix that it currently has(except teleporters), and a high learning curve. Those who could BHop, did. Those who knew the tricks you could do(concing, rjumps, air-straif, etc) could own those who didn't.

angrypyro · 09-30-2010, 04:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bridget

Dear Fortress Forever Community,

Please stop bitching that the only thing public players can do is 'deathmatch'. When you create an entire game that requires a giant skill requirement just to play on a basic competitive level, then you completely alienate new players. When a beginner is unable to bunnyhop across the yard fast enough to avoid the inevitable sniper fire, then what else can he do beside play in-base deathmatch-defense? When a beginner is unable to air-strafe and control a concussion jump, then how will he ever be able to bypass the defenders to get to the flag? What are objectives if you can't reach them? What is organized play if you have to have immediate skill to experience it?

I don't think that the reason people deathmatch is because the game is too hard. In fact, i think that most of the mechanics are pretty easy (you can bunnyhop without having to keep pressing the space bar, concjumping is pretty much just waiting till the timer runs out and jumping, etc). If you look up the game Gunz, its a game with a crazy learning curve due to all the glitches and movement techniques in it but it is still pretty popular whereas it would have probably died without them.
The reason is that killing people is fun and public players aren't competing so there's no real incentive for capping flags. Also since this game has instant spawn, killing people doesn't really help to cap the flag.

Bridget · 09-30-2010, 04:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angrypyro

You can bunnyhop without having to keep pressing the space bar

No, that would just be jumping while moving forward. Bunny-hopping, considering it is no longer an exceptional form of transportation and is now the de facto standard means of moving, should be simplified. Hold jump and forward and steer with the mouse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by angrypyro

concjumping is pretty much just waiting till the timer runs out and jumping, etc)

Sure, but if you want to control it, it's counter-intuitive. You instinctively try to turn the mouse and steer your character, but then are taught you have to hold a strafe key too? Sure, doesn't seem difficult when you know how to concussion jump, but it's overwhelming for a beginner. Same thing as above, you should be able to steer your character in the air simply using the mouse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by angrypyro

The reason is that killing people is fun and public players aren't competing so there's no real incentive for capping flags. Also since this game has instant spawn, killing people doesn't really help to cap the flag.

Those are definitely some of the reasons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo

No, but I have seen (first hand) the devastation that murder leaves behind.

Exactly, moron, which is why your logic fails.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo

Your "ideas" are not best for everyone. <------- TRUTH RIGHT HERE.

Admittedly, but whose are?

Ventry(Leo Wainker) · 09-30-2010, 04:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bridget

Exactly, moron, which is why your logic fails.

Moron eh?
You need to get some sleep. asshat.
My original suggestion to get some programming skillz and contribute was just that.... a SUGGESTION.
It would give you a better platform to implement your ideas.
However, seeing as you wont do that then my original assessment stands: Your just blowing hot air. fucktard.
Your not part of the solution your part of the problem. (in my opinion)
You will keep "stampin your feet" and "shootin of ya mouth" like a spoilt little girl till ya get your way.
By all means don't let me stop you. Assclown.

NeonLight · 09-30-2010, 04:49 AM

So mach hayte in hear guiz

Bridget · 09-30-2010, 05:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ventry(Leo Wainker)

Moron eh?
You need to get some sleep. asshat.
My original suggestion to get some programming skillz and contribute was just that.... a SUGGESTION.
It would give you a better platform to implement your ideas.
However, seeing as you wont do that then my original assessment stands: Your just blowing hot air. fucktard.
Your not part of the solution your part of the problem. (in my opinion)
You will keep "stampin your feet" and "shootin of ya mouth" like a spoilt little girl till ya get your way.
By all means don't let me stop you. Assclown.

I AM SO MAD RIGHT NOW.

Ventry(Leo Wainker) · 09-30-2010, 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bridget

I AM SO MAD RIGHT NOW.

Nope. Just returning fire.
Anyways I have run out of free time for this "banter".
CYA.

09-30-2010, 02:25 AM	#2
NeonLight NeoNL Wiki Team Beta Tester Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Boston, Mass Class/Position: Soldier, Medic Gametype: AvD Affiliations: +M\|M+ -RS Posts Rated Helpful 170 Times	Did this thread really need to be created? Sorry Bri :/ __________________ Stream(720p 60FPS) Recover Montage Fidd_l SpiderX Zutalors_B2 Quark_Classic DM2_MGE NeoN's Config Emporium

10-02-2010, 09:56 PM	#8
GenghisTron AKA LittleAndroidMan D&A Member Beta Tester Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Dystopia Class/Position: Demo/Medic Gametype: CTF Affiliations: [TALOS] [SR] Posts Rated Helpful 11 Times	Someone's mad. __________________ The Catacombs Steam Last.fm

09-30-2010, 02:46 AM	#12
CHURCHMOUTH crystaLcity D&A Member Beta Tester Join Date: May 2009 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Class/Position: Soldier D Gametype: Capture the Flag Affiliations: Goodfellas Posts Rated Helpful 7 Times	i feel the exact same way about counterstrike 1.6 and its the number 1 multiplayer game on the net __________________ 83745 L0LZ ff_nyx_b2 ff_schrape_b3 ff_security_b1 ff_baked_b2 ff_reloaded_b1 ff_mulch_dm_b2 ff_oppose_b1

09-30-2010, 04:49 AM	#18
NeonLight NeoNL Wiki Team Beta Tester Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Boston, Mass Class/Position: Soldier, Medic Gametype: AvD Affiliations: +M\|M+ -RS Posts Rated Helpful 170 Times	So mach hayte in hear guiz __________________ Stream(720p 60FPS) Recover Montage Fidd_l SpiderX Zutalors_B2 Quark_Classic DM2_MGE NeoN's Config Emporium

09-30-2010, 01:26 AM	#1
Bridget Banned Join Date: Sep 2008 Class/Position: Soldier Gametype: AVD Affiliations: TALOS Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times	Dear FF, Dear Fortress Forever Community, Please stop bitching that the only thing public players can do is 'deathmatch'. When you create an entire game that requires a giant skill requirement just to play on a basic competitive level, then you completely alienate new players. When a beginner is unable to bunnyhop across the yard fast enough to avoid the inevitable sniper fire, then what else can he do beside play in-base deathmatch-defense? When a beginner is unable to air-strafe and control a concussion jump, then how will he ever be able to bypass the defenders to get to the flag? What are objectives if you can't reach them? What is organized play if you have to have immediate skill to experience it? This is the reason Fortress Forever sucks for the beginner. There's no compensation, no integration, nothing remains except deathmatching when the beginner realizes he lacks the minimum skill requirements to play the game on the same level as everyone else. When you can't bunnyhop, you get outrun. When you can't air-shot, people just fly past you. When you can't keep your sentry gun up, you're unable to contribute to a defensive objective. So on, and so on, and fucking so on. Deathmatching, as expected, gets old. Fortress Forever, therefore, gets old. So, give me a break. Fortress Forever doesn't fail because 'it's a mod, man.' Garry's mod was a mod. Counter-Strike and Day of Defeat, too, were mods. They gathered enough support to go on to be retail games, because there was at-least some level of beginner integration. These games had learning curves, but they were fun to travel across. Garry's mod is extremely overwhelming when you first start experimenting, but the learning process is fun and amusing. It's encouraging. What's there to Fortress Forever? Congratulations, you've learned how to prime grenades, now there's only a dozen other mechanics that give everyone else an advantage over you that are not not fun to learn and/or are counter-intuitive to learn (eg bunny-hop, strafe-jump, conc-aim, etc). Just a friendly reminder from, as you would call me: "Fortress Forever's #1 Troll"

10-03-2010, 02:29 AM	#9
Bridget Banned Join Date: Sep 2008 Class/Position: Soldier Gametype: AVD Affiliations: TALOS Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times	I've never had this many people on my e-peen at one time.

10-03-2010, 12:36 PM	#10
Christian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Denmark Class/Position: O Gametype: CTF Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	I agree that the learning curve is too high for this game. I was an avid TFC player, and the transition at the release of FF was not too difficult for me. But as all things go, I eventually lost interest in the game, and played other games for some time. (including TF2) When I returned to the game, there were far less players, and the players that were still play easily outskilled me with far more successful conc jumps and awareness on maps I previously enjoyed, when the community was as new to the game as I was. Unfortunately I did not possess the patience nor interest to continue up the skill hill, and eventually quit the game all together. What I would like to see would be the option to remove bunny hopping, conc jumping, strafe jumping and all these other dated concepts that scare newcomers away from a mod with great potential.

09-30-2010, 02:27 AM	#11
Ventry(Leo Wainker) D&A Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Gametype: Capture the Flag Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Fortress Forever that is "newb" friendly = TF2 (and no one wants that) Yes, you are FF's #1 troll. You need to go into Gary's Mod, build a bridge and GET OVER IT. Everyone is aware of YOUR opinion. STFU and stop trying to "bully" everyone into seeing things your way. Just because you say so doesn't make it so.

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)