Dear FF,

[Bridget]

I'm not against learning curves. I think learning curves should be fun to travel along. I think you should want to learn something because it's fun, not because you have to in order to enjoy the game at some minimum against other players. I'm all for things that are easy to learn and use, but difficult to master. If you're going to make a game (as the devs have stated) that focuses on movement versus combat, then how the hell will it work if the movement aspect requires huge prerequisites of knowledge just to operate? Combat is intuitive. You just master the operation.

Same goes for bunnyhop. If you want it to be "the way to travel" then you're going to have to make it accessible to beginners. If it were exceptional, then I could see not making it accessible, but it's obvious this is the de facto standard. If the ability to bunnyhop were as simple as holding jump and w and steering with the mouse, then everyone could bunnyhop, but that doesn't mean everyone would be good at bunnyhop. You still have to learn how to dodge enemies, land at the right spot, and so on. But, no, you miss that point. Anything that makes this game more accessible is dumbing it down, right?

SPOILER: Making the game more accessible won't dumb it down or retard it. I know how desperate you are to keep things in Fortress Forever redundant and overcomplicated and counter-intuitive, as it draws a "line in the sand" to separate you from the rest by default, but if this game is going to go anywhere, the beginner and how well he or she integrates is where it all starts.

OH NO, WHAT HAVE I DONE? TROLLING AGAIN. LOL

[WiFiDi]

ok whoa whoa you guys are going nutz over here if it weren't for Bridget this forum would be dead and quiet. so i kinda like that's hes around. i'm was recently what people considered a noob (still am probably.), and its very hard to get into this game unless you have the patients of well me. the bunny hoping is hard to get a hang of the other stuff is to however it doesnt mean that those mechanics should go or be dumb ed down. just means HP will now be more complicated.

grenades need to be changed make it more realistic because now whenever i throw a grenade i snap back into reality because its so unnatural to throw. armor needs to go or take a smaller role like its there but you can't see it. forumers are so stubborn getting rid of armor doesn't get rid of the complicated it just incorporates armor into hp meaning a new hp system. armor will be part of health in its own way. in other words you just don't want change because of your rebellious nature to this new team fortress style. hell that's just my opinion but seriously armor needs to go trust me it won't dumb down the game just make it more efficient. the equivalent of armor stays it just moves to the HP while the the armor value gone.

i love complicated don't get me wrong but frankly its not that its to complicated in some areas. its that its to unnecessarily complicated in some areas meaning theres no reason for it to be complicated. its not that bridget has bad ideas i just don't like his reasons for doing them. and there are no tutorials to help you on top of that this forum is notorious for being assholes to the new people. so frankly if this games dies it will be because you guys are so unfriendly towards new people and change that it drives everyone away.

in game is a different story much better i actually learned a whole lot because they explain stuff to people. this is a great thing these people need to be making tutorials. threes this one guy that helped me out a lot I'd thank him for this however i can't remember his name. he should make the official tutorials.

also also the reason that tf2 doesn't play much ctf is because its unorganized so naturally the best solution's is to play organized games i agree totally. for this game instead of capture point or payload. go with
A/D CTF it would be awesome you already do it now just make it the standard ctf for this game and fix the medic and ctf takes off.

to bridget

also bridget your not in charge i know you want to be and i know that you think your opinion is the best but intimidating them, into agreeing with you isn't right. your just ranting when you present stuff not giving us facts just same old opinion over and over. right now i see none of what you say is a problem and if it is its in alot of other games to. however none of what you said is a serous problem. i was a noob more recently (by some peoples standards i still am.) and i can tell you its not the the air shooting the bunny hoping, or the skills of the players unless your 1 on 1 or 2 on 2 its the fact that there's so much to the game and the menus are confusing, very confusing. there is no tutorial or even videos in the game you can watch about each class or something. (or online for that matter.) then you just get thrown in there personally i think there should be tutorial videos not a level. that teaches you about all the team play elements. some things need to be changed ammo and armor but that doesn't mean dum them down just integrate them differently.

and your post quality seems to be declining. why because your so emotional in your posts. i mean you just rant there's no depth to any of your posts anymore (you just rant with anger not any evidence to make me believe what your saying.) you've said all there is to be said (10x's over) and your not going to say anything new.


response to the opinion i have. about the whole change thing which ive said before.

ok assuming tfc source is coming out soon (in valve time.) whats gonna happen to this game. uh lets see its gonna die. why because if i wanna play tfc now ill go play the official one. which means that this game has to change and become its own game now not later. i'm all for keeping some of the things that make this game great. the 9 classes, but team play needs to become more of a focus so far its not.

get rid of armor integrate it with health make (hp complicated). give a throw grenade animation then i be happy. i want to see him throw that grenade. and fix those sentry's then i really be happy.

[chilledsanity]

My memory's a bit blurry, but from TFC even when I barely knew anything, most of what I played was dustbowl (some avanti, warpath, etc.) where even though I didn't know all the intricacies of the game, I could feel the repercussions. If I killed several people then see that our cap moved up, I felt like I was contributing, even though at the time I was only DM'ing. Having that front line of defense or offense really used to help in FF for AvD and benefited the team, while the more experienced players were trying to accomplish the objectives. A bunch of random people acting as individuals still led to what felt like a team effort, even if it wasn't cooperation in the normal sense. I hope FF can get back on track to restore this kind of dynamic.

[Ricey]

Who has the biggest vagina in this thread?

[moosh]

Originally Posted by Gwarsbane

I know lets do everything we can to make this game easy for noobs...

Lets remove concs because noobs ask how to do that...

Lets remove grenades because noobs ask how to use them...

Lets remove rockets because noobs ask how to rocket jump...

Lets remove cloaking because noobs ask how to do that...

Lets remove backstabbing because noobs ask how to do that...

Lets remove sniper rifiles because noobs ask how to kill with them...

Lets remove engineer rail gun because noobs ask how to do a powerful shot...

Lets remove bunny hopping because noobs ask how to do that...

Lets remove sabotage because noobs ask how to do that...

Lets remove upgrading sgs because noobs ask how to do that...

Lets remove triping because noobs ask how to do that...

Lets remove flag capping because noobs ask where to cap the flag...

Lets remove the bases because noobs ask how to get out of bases...

Lets remove pretty much everything because noobs ask about pretty much everything.

/sarcasticmode


I don't know what its like on other servers but over on the only server I play on when someone asks how to do something we usually tell them and in many cases even stop to try to show them how.

If you remove stuff that noobs ask or complain about because there is a learning curve then you might as well take everything out of the game and just leave people in a big empty box to shoot each other.



Guess what every game has learning curves, some more then others.


Keep getting killed by X character class? Keep playing and learn how to counter it. I have seen complaints by users for every single character class.

Can't figure something out? Ask for help, if no one there is willing to help, find a better server or keep working at it.


Getting really tried of Bridget's complaints and suggestions to pretty much nerf everything just because he can't get past certain classes.

I don't even know why he even still has the beta tester tags on cause its very obvious to most hes just a troll trying to cause problems.

QFT

[moosh]

Originally Posted by WiFiDi

ok assuming tfc source is coming out soon (in valve time.) whats gonna happen to this game. uh lets see its gonna die. why because if i wanna play tfc now ill go play the official one.

what

[Ricey]

Originally Posted by moosh

what

WHAT?!

Fortress Forever is TFC:Source in a way.

Wifidsididi, are you like bridget and play FF once a month?

I don't even know why he even still has the beta tester tags on cause its very obvious to most hes just a troll trying to cause problems.

+1 FOR GWAR.

Bridget all you do is try and stir shit up on the forums, you talk about all these ideas, but yet you rarely play FF, you have not been in a beta session in a LONG ass time, but yet you throw down ideas without even being able to completely being able to say, "I Play Fortress Forever".

You want your opinion to mean something more than , "Oh Hi, I'm Scuzzy Jr"? Do pickups, play pubs once a day, and on Sunday's come to the beta tests. Until then, stfu.

Wanna do even more, Learn C++, learn to be a good developer. Throwing around ideas is nice and all, but at the end of the day they are just your ideas, that's it.

I'm not against learning curves. I think learning curves should be fun to travel along. I think you should want to learn something because it's fun, not because you have to in order to enjoy the game at some minimum against other players.

You're not against it? You think school should be fun all the time, where everyone learns on the same curve? So, you want to match up someone with an IQ of 132 to someone with an IQ of 80, where they learn on the same curve?

You think a nub should be able to match Exo's skill within a few days of playin' ?

This is Bridget's Dream World, where everyone's IQ is all the same : Idiocracy

If the ability to bunnyhop were as simple as holding jump and w and steering with the mouse, then everyone could bunnyhop, but that doesn't mean everyone would be good at bunnyhop.

Oh. My.God. Jumping, Strafing and aiming at the same time is soooooo hard.

Rici (I think that's his name, well the first part), is 8 years old. He plays FF. He CAN BHOP, not well, but he understands it.

THE KID IS 8.

Here, I'll make it even more important.

8

If it was sooo HARD TO LEARN, then why can a 8 year old do it.

SPOILER: Making the game more accessible won't dumb it down or retard it.

You know those doors where there is a handicap button? Yea, It's more accessible, but guess what. It made the DOOR STUPID. I can now flail my arms, while completely shit faced and still get in side.

You know those moving stairs that go up and down? Same thing, even with flailing arms you still get up the stairs.(yes, I know they are called escalators)



Do I have to give any more examples as to why some things should NOT be dumbed down.

[Bridget]

Originally Posted by Ricey

Bridget all you do is try and stir shit up on the forums, you talk about all these ideas, but yet you rarely play FF, you have not been in a beta session in a LONG ass time, but yet you throw down ideas without even being able to completely being able to say, "I Play Fortress Forever".

You want your opinion to mean something more than , "Oh Hi, I'm Scuzzy Jr"? Do pickups, play pubs once a day, and on Sunday's come to the beta tests. Until then, stfu.

I went to a ton of beta tests faithfully when almost all of the beta team wasn't even active. Hell, I even joined up when there were only one or two people testing. I stopped giving a shit about the beta because what's the point? If I make any discussion, I get accused of trolling, and in the end, whatever the devs say goes in the beta. Besides, beta tests are useless. Not enough shit gets added between tests to even justify 'testing'.

Originally Posted by Ricey

Wanna do even more, Learn C++, learn to be a good developer. Throwing around ideas is nice and all, but at the end of the day they are just your ideas, that's it.

I'd like to get around to this sometime, but it's hard having to manually figure out how Source works and achieves x without any "documentation", at-least for me. Plus, I'm not good with C++. Ask Dexter 'bout my adventures trying to manipulate empty pointers.

Originally Posted by Ricey

You're not against it? You think school should be fun all the time, where everyone learns on the same curve? So, you want to match up someone with an IQ of 132 to someone with an IQ of 80, where they learn on the same curve?

In after bad analogy.

Originally Posted by Ricey

You think a nub should be able to match Exo's skill within a few days of playin' ?

No, but said nub should be able to progress to Exo's skill level without having to overcome a billion obstacles like redundancies and mechanics that can be simplified without subtracting from the skill you gain from mastering it not just learning it.

Originally Posted by Ricey

Rici (I think that's his name, well the first part), is 8 years old. He plays FF. He CAN BHOP, not well, but he understands it.

THE KID IS 8.

Here, I'll make it even more important.

8

If it was sooo HARD TO LEARN, then why can a 8 year old do it.

Just because someone young or otherwise supposedly unable or unlikely accomplishes something doesn't mean that something is then immediately easy. There's apparently a ten year old kid that knows thirteen languages with fluency, that doesn't then mean learning thirteen languages is an easy feat. How can you draw such a conclusion?

Originally Posted by Ricey

You know those doors where there is a handicap button? Yea, It's more accessible, but guess what. It made the DOOR STUPID. I can now flail my arms, while completely shit faced and still get in side.

Eh?

Originally Posted by Ricey

You know those moving stairs that go up and down? Same thing, even with flailing arms you still get up the stairs.(yes, I know they are called escalators)

Eh?

Originally Posted by Ricey

Do I have to give any more examples as to why some things should NOT be dumbed down.

Please, spare me.

[Ricey]

Originally Posted by Bridget

I went to a ton of beta tests faithfully when almost all of the beta team wasn't even active. Hell, I even joined up when there were only one or two people testing. I stopped giving a shit about the beta because what's the point? If I make any discussion, I get accused of trolling, and in the end, whatever the devs say goes in the beta. Besides, beta tests are useless. Not enough shit gets added between tests to even justify 'testing'.



I'd like to get around to this sometime, but it's hard having to manually figure out how Source works and achieves x without any "documentation", at-least for me. Plus, I'm not good with C++. Ask Dexter 'bout my adventures trying to manipulate empty pointers.

Really? Nothing gets added between the Sundays? It's not about how much stuff is added, it's about what's currently in beta phase, added a new thing EVERY week is bad. It slows down the process of beta testing. Also, the devs run the game, beta testers do not. We have a say, but that's it. If they find our points valid they look at them.

Do you think Blizzard bends over backwards for people?

Beta testing is useless? Really? How so? Everything in the world is tested before released. Would you want your car not to be tested before it went onto the market?

The reason why people say you troll is because you do. You are a douche bag. You are Scuzzy Jr. Well you are worse than Scuzzy.


Also: Don't try and learn how source works as you are learning C++. C++ is probably a bad OO language to start off with, learn AS3, it's a bit easier.

[Bridget]

Originally Posted by Ricey

Really? Nothing gets added between the Sundays? It's not about how much stuff is added, it's about what's currently in beta phase, added a new thing EVERY week is bad. It slows down the process of beta testing. Also, the devs run the game, beta testers do not. We have a say, but that's it. If they find our points valid they look at them.

Yes, and not much even gets fixed over the course of a week, so it feels like every Sunday is a "play 2.5 before everyone else" test instead of an actual test of something new whether in addition or repair. Second point is exactly why I dislike how FF dev is done. I don't think the developers should be the only ones to decide what makes or breaks the game. The community should have their part too, and that means more than those in the beta.

I mean everyone should have a say in what is going on in the beta. Yeah, the devs can iron out any concerns and balance things, but where do the people you're making this game for come into the equation?

Originally Posted by Ricey

Beta testing is useless? Really? How so? Everything in the world is tested before released. Would you want your car not to be tested before it went onto the market?

It's useless if feedback on implementations the developers choose to implement is our only option. Here's a follow-up analogy: Let's imagine a car company tests a new car. It passes the crash test, but someone has a suggestion on how to make it really protective. Imagine said car company ignores said suggestion because the car in its current state 'gets by well enough', even though that suggestion could have helped them in some way that will never be seen as it was never considered fully.

Originally Posted by Ricey

The reason why people say you troll is because you do. You are a douche bag. You are Scuzzy Jr. Well you are worse than Scuzzy.

Give me an example of how I troll. Yeah, I am more aggressive and vocal than other people, but that doesn't define trolling. Give me an example of how I troll. You know, one where I'm not making a remark after someone else insults me first or where I throw in the occasional indirect slang to emphasize my frustration.

Originally Posted by Ricey

Also: Don't try and learn how source works as you are learning C++. C++ is probably a bad OO language to start off with, learn AS3, it's a bit easier.

I (probably don't) know most of how C++ works. It's just wrapping my head around concepts that I haven't grown used to with interpreted and high-level languages like Python. I dabble now and then with languages. I also do minor web development. I'm far from experienced though. :/

[Ricey]

Yes, and not much even gets fixed over the course of a week, so it feels like every Sunday is a "play 2.5 before everyone else" test instead of an actual test of something new whether in addition or repair. Second point is exactly why I dislike how FF dev is done. I don't think the developers should be the only ones to decide what makes or breaks the game. The community should have their part too, and that means more than those in the beta.

Well dur, every beta is like that, not just FF.

I mean everyone should have a say in what is going on in the beta. Yeah, the devs can iron out any concerns and balance things, but where do the people you're making this game for come into the equation?

People should have a say, but Devs have the final say, otherwise it's : Okay let's program every thing you guys want in, getting NOTHING down.

It's useless if feedback on implementations the developers choose to implement is our only option. Here's a follow-up analogy: Let's imagine a car company tests a new car. It passes the crash test, but someone has a suggestion on how to make it really protective. Imagine said car company ignores said suggestion because the car in its current state 'gets by well enough', even though that suggestion could have helped them in some way that will never be seen as it was never considered fully.

Go read the medic thread, my idea was added in, still is in and being tested.

Give me an example of how I troll. Yeah, I am more aggressive and vocal than other people, but that doesn't define trolling. Give me an example of how I troll. You know, one where I'm not making a remark after someone else insults me first or where I throw in the occasional indirect slang to emphasize my frustration.

You troll, i'd post many different examples, but I'm sitting in Mobile Device Design Class. (Designing and Developing for Mobile devices sucks)

I (probably don't) know most of how C++ works. It's just wrapping my head around concepts that I haven't grown used to with interpreted and high-level languages like Python. I dabble now and then with languages. I also do minor web development. I'm far from experienced though. :/

Front-End and Back-End programming have their difference, php/javascript aren't strict data-typed, while AS3 is. JS/PHP also dont need OO to be fully functional. PHP did just add namespaces. AS3 is Fully OO just like C++, why i suggested it.

I'll upload all the AS3 screen casts I have, and Flex(which is fun as hell to mess with).

[Gwarsbane]

Originally Posted by GenghisTron

>>Gwarsbane implying he's not a noob

No, I'm trying to give you guys my experience in helping a community survive and grow without ramming it down your throats, I do however try to counter bad ideas when I see them. I have experience in this, I've helped run a mod community for over 10 years. I've seen this stuff from both sides as a dev and as a player.

Going by just what one troll thinks is best because he believes his opinion is better then everyone else's is wrong. Going by just what the clan/league community want is wrong. Looking at what the pub players like, dislike and suggest is the best idea because without pub players you will not have any new clan/league players.

I play FF regularly and I'm telling you guys what I see. I see people asking for help, I see people giving help. I see the server I play on nearly full just about every night with people all having fun, talking, killing and just having a blast. There are no racist crap, there is no swearing, there is no making fun or yelling at a noob because he can't figure how to do something... well sometimes there is but its because its funny and even the noob is laughing but we still try to help. If someone says they are new, we welcome them and tell them if they need any help just ask, we'll try help.

I also see regulars complaining about how the game is progressing. They see certain ideas as dumbing down the game because of a very vocal minority who, some of which have said they don't even play the game anymore and haven't for a long while. We've heard some of the ideas that might be in the next patch and if even 1/4 of them are true there is a large chance that more of the community is going to leave.

BUT they also see a glimmer of hope, for example its been mentioned that the SG is getting a buff for the next patch. This is something that pub players have been asking for for a long time now. They are not looking for everything to double, they just want an increase of around 10% or so to start on the stats.


I've seen what trolls/bullies like Bridget can do to a community, they can and do drive people away, at least Bridget doesn't play anymore, course that could be because hes been banned from most servers (if I remember right I seen that somewhere on these forums that he said hes been banned from most servers). Again I don't know why Bridget has the beta tag on, he has said he doesn't play the game.


And to anyone thinking, "You think you're so big and you've got such a big mouth Gwar, why don't you sign up?" I thought about it in the past, but I just have too much going on that I don't have the time I would need to put into something like that. I play at night to relax when I have time, but I can't dedicate any specific time to play just because I don't know when I will need to take off to work on something.

[KubeDawg]

I take any advice I receive from anyone with a grain of salt. Bridget is no different. Even though some would say he's trolling, at least he has a voice on this stuff. Most people just sit on the sidelines and wait for stuff to happen.

I'm not trying to defend him, but I do think we need to constantly be talking about making the game better, and there are likely to be thousands of failed ideas before getting to a few good ones. So take it as you will, but we need Bridget lol.

What we need less of though is mindless bantering and more constructive criticism. Obviously people aren't going to agree on everything, but we need some stimulation of ideas that are practical, not going to take forever to implement and that people are going to like. And that is what I think Bridget is trying to convey, at least with the development transparency. How do you know if people will like a feature or even the concept of it unless it's talked about in the open? Obviously there are quite a few beta testers to give their opinions, but that's not necessarily indicative of the entire community.

[CHURCHMOUTH]

I have come to a conclusion while reading some of these posts. Bridget is trying to make it look like hes trying to help new players understand the game of fortress forever. What he doesnt want anyone to know is he is just having a harder time than normal understanding the game of fortress forever for himself. (being good at it) Therefore he wants the game dumbed down so someday he could possibly step foot into a server with someone like yours truely and not get killed back to back to back to back to back without so much as leaving me short of 100 200.

@kubedawg - what we need is more people playing the game of FF. it has been around for years and i dont think adding more stuff for new players to try to wrap their brain around is going to help in the numbers department. BRIDGET go outside of your realm and play a pickup or something jeeze louise

[Gwarsbane]

Its easy enough to solve that.

Make a new section. Call it Admin Polls or something like that.
Make it so that only admins can start something in there and only allow admins to make polls that have to do with game suggestions and only put in things that seriously only have a chance of getting into the game.

When an idea is suggested on the forums or in the beta area that sounds like a plausible idea put it up to see what people think.

For example, we've heard that the spy cloak is going to get nerfed badly by putting a timer on it like in TF2 and/or its going to be visible even when sitting still.


Do you think the spy cloak should have a time limit?
Yes
No
I don't care either way

Do you think the spy cloak should be seen while not moving?
Yes
No
I don't care either way


We've heard that the sniper rifle is getting nerfed.

Do you think its too hard to get past snipers.
Yes
No
Depends on the map
Depends on how helpful the team is

If we gave the sniper a secondary grenade what should it be?
Smoke, like the spies but doesn't hurt people and sniper can see through it
Smoke, like the spies but doesn't hurt people and sniper can't see through it
Radar, lasts for 10 seconds and every enemy with in X range gets a sniper like tag on them while in range. Does not tag people through walls.
Tag, explodes and every enemy in X range gets a sniper tag on them. Does 10 points of damage when it explodes to every enemy in range.
I like any of the above ideas
Doesn't matter to me
I don't think the sniper should have a secondary grenade.


If there are complaints about a map...

We've heard people spam the Aardvark sniper deck and toss stuff into the spawn, what should be done?

Nothing
Put in some sort of lasers to stop people from getting up on the deck
Put a button inside the spawn that vaporizes all enemy on the deck
Put a button inside the spawn that flings all enemy off the deck
Don't allow enemy grenades and weapons fire while on the deck


It would also allow admins to have a specific section where them and only them can ask the community questions.

We've heard that X map has problems, what should be done?

We've heard complaints about scouts being too fast, what do you think should be done?

stuff like that. Don't allow anything but serious questions that admins have for the community. If its about a certain person or people or server, don't allow it. That should be kept behind closed doors.

[WiFiDi]

Originally Posted by Ricey

WHAT?!

Fortress Forever is TFC:Source in a way.

Wifidsididi, are you like bridget and play FF once a month?

first off im inslulted how you spell my name secondly while i havn't played much recently i do play alot when i play atleast 2 hours a day when i do play. haven't played in a month because of personal events. i play quite a bit i tend to play in spurts.

also if valve makes tfc source why would i stay with this game if tfc source is official and is out has less problems and is made by the same company making it originally what stops everyone form leaving for that game. as much as tfc as possible isn't a winning scenario for this game. that's my point. this game needs to come into its own pretty fast or it may just dig itself so deep it can't get back out. times a ticking.

[Ricey]

Originally Posted by WiFiDi

first off im inslulted how you spell my name secondly while i havn't played much recently i do play alot when i play atleast 2 hours a day when i do play. haven't played in a month because of personal events. i play quite a bit i tend to play in spurts.

also if valve makes tfc source why would i stay with this game if tfc source is official and is out has less problems and is made by the same company making it originally what stops everyone form leaving for that game. as much as tfc as possible isn't a winning scenario for this game. that's my point. this game needs to come into its own pretty fast or it may just dig itself so deep it can't get back out. times a ticking.

There will never be a TFC:Source lol.

Reason why I call you Wifidsididi is because you don't understand the English language. You can't even spell insulted correctly.

[chilledsanity]

Wow, lot to respond to:

Originally Posted by Gwarsbane

BUT they also see a glimmer of hope, for example its been mentioned that the SG is getting a buff for the next patch. This is something that pub players have been asking for for a long time now. They are not looking for everything to double, they just want an increase of around 10% or so to start on the stats.

I'm hoping what you just typed is just a simple miscommunication. In terms of overall strength, yes, I'd say a 10% boost would be good. In terms of PUSH however, it needs to be much more than doubled. It's this simple:

FF 1.1 - had a push value of 24, excellent stopping power, similar to TFC

FF 2.1 - had a push value of 2, nailguns had more push than this, it almost nothing, I don't understand how this got out of the experimentation phase

FF 2.4 - has a push value of 4, better, but still a joke for stopping people

FF 2.5 - ??? If it's less than doubled, it will be slightly LESS of a joke?


Old FF was comparable to TFC, which had good balance in AvD pubs, with sg push having a strong correlation to that. You seem to imply that doubling it is some extremist attitude, but after it's been reduced to a TWELTH of what it was, then to a SIXTH, I just don't understand what the dev team has been thinking all this time (the only answer I've gotten that makes any sense is they don't really care about AvD and these values make sense for pickups). If people are only asking for a small boost now, maybe that's because they feel like that's all they can wring out of the dev team and/or most of the people who enjoyed a strong engineer from TFC and old FF have long abandoned the mod and thus don't have much of a voice anymore.

Originally Posted by Gwarsbane

I've seen what trolls/bullies like Bridget can do to a community, they can and do drive people away, at least Bridget doesn't play anymore, course that could be because hes been banned from most servers (if I remember right I seen that somewhere on these forums that he said hes been banned from most servers).

I could be completely wrong here, since I've only read a fraction of Bridget's posts, but almost everything I've seen by Bridget doesn't suggest trolling. It strikes me more as someone who is adamant about the game, has strong views on it that fly almost directly against the current dev team. I think his staunch nature is almost required considering the behavior of the devs. I've seen many arguments from devs ignoring logic, acting like bullies or trolls themselves, then when a new patch finally does roll out, depending on your gamestyle preference, it feels like a slap to the face.

If you're a fan of TFC AvD, the changes the devs have felt like they're actively sabotaging the game. When you try reasoning, submitting evidence, proposing solutions, and they're all ignored and the game gets even worse, what is the appropriate reponse? Stop playing? Wait 2 years until the devs start to realize you had a point (even if they don't make the connection)? Continue arguing adamantly about your points? I think Bridget is doing the latter and am glad he isn't as worn down by feeling utterly helpless to fix the mod as I am.

This doesn't mean that I think everything Bridget says is right. I think before he implied that the pacing of TF2 was a good thing, something I totally disagree with, plus some of the dumbing down angles may be carried too far, but I think many devs are quick to dismiss all his points, regardless of the logic and reasoning that may be.

On the other hand, if Bridget really is trolling, I think it's worth pointing to posts where he has. So far all I've seen is him adamant against the groupthink mentality currently possessing FF development.

Originally Posted by KubeDawg

What we need less of though is mindless bantering and more constructive criticism. Obviously people aren't going to agree on everything, but we need some stimulation of ideas that are practical, not going to take forever to implement and that people are going to like. And that is what I think Bridget is trying to convey, at least with the development transparency.

Here's another idea, how about PAST transparency? My biggest beef with FF is about decisions that were made a long time ago that I consider horrible and haven't been remedied. I'd really like to know the reasoning behind those. If I knew that, maybe I could find a way to actually communicate with the devs for recognizing the problem and possibly remeding it. The devs have said before that they don't always know what the community wants, well we have no idea what they're thinking either. It's like the blind leading the blind.

Originally Posted by Gwarsbane

When an idea is suggested on the forums or in the beta area that sounds like a plausible idea put it up to see what people think.

There's one step here that I think is missing and is perhaps crucial: CLARIFY WHAT GAMEMODE YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. AvD is a completely different world from pickups. My opinions should count for SHIT when talking about pickups, whereas I have several hundred hours playing pub AvD. Take sniper. He's not really a big deal in AvD no matter what you do to him, however he's a potential nightmare in pub CTF. So what happens is you get some people who primarily play one gamemode thinking your claims are ridiculous because they're talking about something else and you neither side realizes it. Furthermore even if they're taken seriously, without an understanding new efforts won't fix the right problems.

I also wish there was a way to confirm that people calling for nerfs to classes actually PLAY that class regularly, but I don't think that's possible.

[Ricey]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

AvD is a completely different world from pickups. My opinions should count for SHIT when talking about pickups, whereas I have several hundred hours playing pub AvD.

I'm quoting this because he's said it over a hundred times.


About Bridget's trolling is not just on the forums, it's in game as well.

He even did it on Squishy's server, and that's a TFC Server.


I have a demo of it somewhere, it was a horrible attempt at trolling.

But if you have watched Bridget you'll see a trend with him. He gets ban,and things are peaceful. When he comes back he's a good little boy, and then he goes back to being a douche hat. He's done this twice.


I also wish there was a way to confirm that people calling for nerfs to classes actually PLAY that class regularly, but I don't think that's possible.

I've played the pyro a good amount, and he is need of a nerf.

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by Ricey

I'm quoting this because he's said it over a hundred times.

I've found that if I don't mention this, someone assumes I'm talking about pickups or CTF, makes some asinine point about how what I'm saying won't work because they misunderstand the situation. This has happened MANY times. Many FF debates in the past seem completely CTF-centric, like AvD doesn't even exist. It's sort of a way of trying to remind people that some people played TFC for different reasons than they did (AvD pubs v. CTF leagues) and FF development has been destroying a lot of that.

Besides, I have no clue what sinks in around here. How many times have I mentioned the sg has been nerfed too much and this led to ruining AvD? Note that it is STILL nerfed. 2.5 may fix that, but how long did it take the devs to even realize this was a problem? How many times do I need to repeat something before it registers? 200?

Originally Posted by Ricey

About Bridget's trolling is not just on the forums, it's in game as well.

Well I haven't seen it, but assuming he really does troll, many of his posts still have some points in them. I'd just address parts where he uses logic and reasoning where you can have an actual analysis and just ignore everything else.

Originally Posted by Ricey

I've the pyro a good amount, and he is need of a nerf.

I wasn't implying you specifically, I've just seen posts before where it was clear the person had a completely one-dimensional view. I agree, I exploit the shit out of pyro on avanti, cornfield, palermo, etc. I also think that's a little lower priority than some of the other fixes.