Looking for players to play TFC style TF2

[chilledsanity]

I don't play TF2, so I can't comment on that. From what I've seen they looked fairly powerful. I actually don't mind dumb and powerful, then positioning and engineer awareness come more into play.

Regardless, FF's are pathetic compared to TFC's and very weak compared even to early versions of the mod. Both 1.0 and 2.0 had pretty good stopping power. 1.0's stayed up longer, but its tracking wasn't as good. 2.0 had pretty good tracking, but lower health and thus flimsier. FF's in its current state has very weak push. I don't know what the devs were thinking lowering the push values so a player can literally run in a straight line right up to it while it's firing and reach it without dying.

[Bridget]

They were thinking: "Pickups will be a lot better now. Yeah baby!"

[Ventry(Leo Wainker)]

Originally Posted by Bridget

They were thinking: "Pickups will be a lot better now. Yeah baby!"

This is one thing you and I can agree on.
Sentries are woeful.

[Majesty]

A decent spy can backstab the engie and rotate along with the sentry, then, eventually sap the sentry disabling it almost immediately. Sentries are garbage if you don't have a compression-blast pyro helping you.

Oh yeah, there was a topic. Promoting a similar game with a similar play style to a still-growing community is in bad taste, honestly. And if it's true about the sentries being worse here than in TF2, then for the love of Sandvich fix them!

[collinwood]

what a crock, if you want tfc style play......play FF

[chilledsanity]

And if it's true about the sentries being worse here than in TF2, then for the love of Sandvich fix them!

It's VERY true, they're worse than any other version of team fortress. As for fixing them, you say that, but they were pretty good in earlier versions FF, then made into a complete joke in 2.1 and have only received very small improvements in 2.4, leaving them at their second-weakest state ever. I would LOVE to see them fixed, but this has gone neglected for about 2 years now. Here's a quick summary of the sentry gun push changes(straight from the official changelog):

1.11 sg push: 24 units
2.0 sg push: 15 units
2.1 sg push: 2 units
2.4 sg push: 4 units

While there's some debate about what the actual drop really is, since it's not one single number, that over a 90% drop that was left that way for a year, then increased so it was "only" a 83%. Even if the numbers aren't as clearcut as this it still FEELS weak as hell. In 2.1 - 2.3 the scout's nailgun literally had more push than the sg. The reason all this matters is that for gamemodes like AvD and I/D the reality is that it makes a large difference as to how fast the game is over.

Originally Posted by collinwood

what a crock, if you want tfc style play......play FF

I would love to, however the balance for AvD and I/D (and even hunted) is atrocious compared to TFC. Offense winning 90% or more of the games I play in AvD is NOT tfc-style.

[eomoyaff]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

It's VERY true, they're worse than any other version of team fortress. As for fixing them, you say that, but they were pretty good in earlier versions FF, then made into a complete joke in 2.1 and have only received very small improvements in 2.4, leaving them at their second-weakest state ever. I would LOVE to see them fixed, but this has gone neglected for about 2 years now. Here's a quick summary of the sentry gun push changes(straight from the official changelog):

1.11 sg push: 24 units
2.0 sg push: 15 units
2.1 sg push: 2 units
2.4 sg push: 4 units

While there's some debate about what the actual drop really is, since it's not one single number, that over a 90% drop that was left that way for a year, then increased so it was "only" a 83%. Even if the numbers aren't as clearcut as this it still FEELS weak as hell. In 2.1 - 2.3 the scout's nailgun literally had more push than the sg. The reason all this matters is that for gamemodes like AvD and I/D the reality is that it makes a large difference as to how fast the game is over.

I would love to, however the balance for AvD and I/D (and even hunted) is atrocious compared to TFC. Offense winning 90% or more of the games I play in AvD is NOT tfc-style.

THATS BECAUSE THIS ISN'T TFC, IDIOT.. SG's are fine in this game. 2.41 is fine. As I've always said, Sg's play as destractions. If you can't keep one going, then you're obviously doing something wrong.

[Ricey]

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

THATS BECAUSE THIS ISN'T TFC, IDIOT.. SG's are fine in this game. 2.41 is fine. As I've always said, Sg's play as destractions. If you can't keep one going, then you're obviously doing something wrong.

No, the SG is a joke.

[Elmo]

I agree the SG needs sorting... I liked what we were working on in the beta (powerful sg with more health but which will eventually go down). Still it wasn't right n I dunno what the plan is at the moment to really fix it.

[CHURCHMOUTH]

the only people i ever see talking bad about the sentry guns are people who i never see playing the game.. how would u know

[eomoyaff]

Originally Posted by CHURCHMOUTH

the only people i ever see talking bad about the sentry guns are people who i never see playing the game.. how would u know

ex-fucking-actly! The SG doesn't need an upgrade. The only upgrade needed is the player's who can't keep one up. And a lot of people who are inclined to talk bad about the SG, are usually 1 of 3 people. 1) being the people mentioned above. 2) the people who compare this to OTHER fortress games. and 3)Idiots who misunderstand FFs' purpose behind the Sentry Gun.

[Ricey]

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

ex-fucking-actly! The SG doesn't need an upgrade. The only upgrade needed is the player's who can't keep one up. And a lot of people who are inclined to talk bad about the SG, are usually 1 of 3 people. 1) being the people mentioned above. 2) the people who compare this to OTHER fortress games. and 3)Idiots who misunderstand FFs' purpose behind the Sentry Gun.

Wait, so Me and Elmo are : Mentioned Above, People who compare this game to other Fortress Games and idiots who don't understand that SG purpose? Really? When did this happen?

There is nothing wrong with comparing SGs to other TF Typed Games, and if you think that is a bad, then just stop talking. They all have the same type of functionality and that's being the Engy's MAIN Weapon.

[eomoyaff]

Originally Posted by Ricey

Wait, so Me and Elmo are : Mentioned Above, People who compare this game to other Fortress Games and idiots who don't understand that SG purpose? Really? When did this happen?

There is nothing wrong with comparing SGs to other TF Typed Games, and if you think that is a bad, then just stop talking. They all have the same type of functionality and that's being the Engy's MAIN Weapon.

Chances are you are one of the 3 Ricey. And there is a problem with comparing FF's SG to other TF type games. The reason is because they all run on different dynamics and different engines, done by different developers under different speeds. And of course it's the Engy's main weapon. And it's a GOOD Weapon as it stands... Have a cookie.

(No really, my brother made some bad-ass suger cookies. They are amazing.)

[Ricey]

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

Chances are you are one of the 3 Ricey. And there is a problem with comparing FF's SG to other TF type games. The reason is because they all run on different dynamics and different engines, done by different developers under different speeds. And of course it's the Engy's main weapon. And it's a GOOD Weapon as it stands... Have a cookie.

(No really, my brother made some bad-ass suger cookies. They are amazing.)

I'll use this cookie to wipe my ass and feed it to Iggy, that's what I think of your Brother's cookies.

My mom's cookies > all.



Back on to the topic:

Wanna know something fun, you talk about different engines, Source uses alot of GoldSRC Code! It's really not that different.

Also, the speeds of FF are faster then that of any OTHER Fortress Game.

Think about that for a bit.


Have some of my Mom's amazing Chocolate Cake.

[eomoyaff]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

I would love to, however the balance for AvD and I/D (and even hunted) is atrocious compared to TFC. Offense winning 90% or more of the games I play in AvD is NOT tfc-style.

Even IF The SG is upgraded, and the gameplay was altered to favor defense (even more) Offense would still win 90% of the time. Get over it, or go back to TFC and gloat about how much better it feels to be there then in FF (oh wait, you're not even playing FF...)

[eomoyaff]

Originally Posted by Ricey

I'll use this cookie to wipe my ass and feed it to Iggy, that's what I think of your Brother's cookies.

My mom's cookies > all.



Back on to the topic:

Wanna know something fun, you talk about different engines, Source uses alot of GoldSRC Code! It's really not that different.

Also, the speeds of FF are faster then that of any OTHER Fortress Game.

Think about that for a bit.


Have some of my Mom's amazing Chocolate Cake.

No offense, but I'm allergic to Chocolate. And Rice. And Ricey's mom. .

Also, Is this faster then ETF?.. I'd bargain with that.

Honestly, I really don't see the problem with it. You all act as though the SG is sooo bad that it's ALWAYS on the bottom of the score board. When I play offense, I find the hardest thing to get by (besides Cake's Fatty) is the SG. I know for a fact that if I don't get that SG down, Obtaining the flag is MUCH, MUCH, harder. So it MUST be playing the part, thus it really doesn't need anything. The only way I could see people complain is in a server with very few people. Other then that, the gun should work perfectly fine with 8 or more people. (which is what the average is.)

Anymore Ramble Ramble, or are you ready to stop the bashing and actually take this as a point?

[Ricey]

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

Even IF The SG is upgraded, and the gameplay was altered to favor defense (even more) Offense would still win 90% of the time. Get over it, or go back to TFC and gloat about how much better it feels to be there then in FF (oh wait, you're not even playing FF...)

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

No offense, but I'm allergic to Chocolate. And Rice. And Ricey's mom. .

Also, Is this faster then ETF?.. I'd bargain with that.

Honestly, I really don't see the problem with it. You all act as though the SG is sooo bad that it's ALWAYS on the bottom of the score board. When I play offense, I find the hardest thing to get by (besides Cake's Fatty) is the SG. I know for a fact that if I don't get that SG down, Obtaining the flag is MUCH, MUCH, harder. So it MUST be playing the part, thus it really doesn't need anything. The only way I could see people complain is in a server with very few people. Other then that, the gun should work perfectly fine with 8 or more people. (which is what the average is.)

Anymore Ramble Ramble, or are you ready to stop the bashing and actually take this as a point?

I always forget about ETF, poor ETF. Not sure, so lets make FF 90% Faster than all other TF Games.

Really? You wanna stop the bashing? But this WHOLE time that's all you've doing. I've even quoted you bashing.

Also, Cake is aims better than a SG.

The SG is a MACHINE, not a little pee shooter that the scout runs around with, which has a bit less push than the current SG. Does that make sense to you? Soliders, Medics, Snipers, Scouts,and Spies all take the SG with out a single problem from a far, the skill required to take out the SG up-close is a bit harder, but not much. That is even with Sollys and HWGuys playing.

Demo man can easily destroy the SG likes it's a dying baby with autism.

You can not treat the SG has just a simple distraction. That's not the PURPOSE of the SG. The purpose of the SG is to be the Engy's MAIN weapon. Next comes the Rail Gun and then the Dispenser. Even calling the Dispenser a weapon is a weak. As it's true PURPOSE is to supply your team mates with ammo and armour, not to block the paths of scouts or medics. It just so happens that can be a secondary purpose.

By the way, the Values that are set in Beta for LVL3 SG Push is way higher than it is in 2.41, I have only heard 1 person complain about the SG, but that was only for a bit.

[eomoyaff]

Perhaps it's because I'm tired of hearing people complain about the game, even though they aren't playing it enough to get a good feel for the changes. Right off the bat I hated 2.4, but I stuck with it and actually came to like it more once I adjusted. I'm sorry if a majority of people here can't do that.

The SG is the main weapon and always will be. There's no way I can disagree with that. But that doesn't mean it doesn't play as a Distraction. I'm not saying that the SG goes down every time it's built. And that's not the case considering you have other players on your team, playing defense. I shouldn't have to lay out examples for you to understand that your gun stays up longer because of the damage offensive players take prior to meeting the sentry gun. And that's usually the factor, even back in TFC.. The more player's to participate in a match, means the greater chance of survival with the sentry gun, unless the Defense isn't doing their job. Making your point partially valid.

[Ricey]

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

Perhaps it's because I'm tired of hearing people complain about the game, even though they aren't playing it enough to get a good feel for the changes. Right off the bat I hated 2.4, but I stuck with it and actually came to like it more once I adjusted. I'm sorry if a majority of people here can't do that.

The SG is the main weapon and always will be. There's no way I can disagree with that. But that doesn't mean it doesn't play as a Distraction. I'm not saying that the SG goes down every time it's built. And that's not the case considering you have other players on your team, playing defense. I shouldn't have to lay out examples for you to understand that your gun stays up longer because of the damage offensive players take prior to meeting the sentry gun. And that's usually the factor, even back in TFC.. The more player's to participate in a match, means the greater chance of survival with the sentry gun, unless the Defense isn't doing their job. Making your point partially valid.

Heres an example for you :

Me, Chef, Hadez D
Exo, Mental, Vinny O

Exo can conc right at the SG and not be worried about not making it, because the push sucks, so as a scout he runs around it till it dies. With FF on the demo(Chef) and the solly(Hadez) have to worry about FF(friendly fire), if they hit me, I die and SG dies as well, along with the scout, hopefully. Respawn, which allows the O to kill me, and not allow me to RESETUP the SG.

Now, with 2.4.2 (or w/e the beta is) with the push, Exo can't just easily conc up to it and run around it. As the push wouldn't let him get as close to it. He's a fucking scout for god's sake.

What you are doing is, looking at the SG as a distraction as an O Player, not a D Player. Secondly, not every incoming O is able to be killed, the SG is to ensure that weaken foes die, not a weaken foe kills the SG, takes the flag out of the flagroom and dies.

Should scouts be able to rotate along the SG, yes, they are a movement class, should a medic? Not as easily as a scout. As a Medic is a Hybrid class, not a straight movement class. As it stands now, a Medic, even with a solly attacking him can EASILY destroy an SG with a few nails and a nade. Remember Engys are EASILY killed. 80H/50A. Medic VS Engy, Medic should win. Medic VS SG/Engy Medics should have trouble trying to run directly into with a super nailgun. It should NOT be able to walk directly up to it and be able to bash it.

You also can't generalize the SG for every map as well, which you are doing. Each map is different, each SG is placed differently in each map and has to be played differently.

Look at schtop:

You place it on the left hand(or right, depending which way you are facing)( side aiming towards the opening. Why? Because it can hit the O as they came up. Doesn't do much good, as they can walk up to the SG without a problem.

Look at Well:
You don't usually place it in the Flag Room, as it's wide open and easily passable. So you put in in the Middle Room on the sides.

Bases:
Flagroom on the side.

Trench :
Looking directly down the hallway. Covers the flag and 1 hallway.

If you have it as a distraction it goes like this , Scout:"Oh, lawl, an SG,*conc by*"

Not a distraction Scout: "Shit! A SG * goes another way till it's taken down by a medic or solly"

[eomoyaff]

Originally Posted by Ricey

Heres an example for you :

Me, Chef, Hadez D
Exo, Mental, Vinny O

Exo can conc right at the SG and not be worried about not making it, because the push sucks, so as a scout he runs around it till it dies. With FF on the demo(Chef) and the solly(Hadez) have to worry about FF(friendly fire), if they hit me, I die and SG dies as well, along with the scout, hopefully. Respawn, which allows the O to kill me, and not allow me to RESETUP the SG.

Now, with 2.4.2 (or w/e the beta is) with the push, Exo can't just easily conc up to it and run around it. As the push wouldn't let him get as close to it. He's a fucking scout for god's sake.

What you are doing is, looking at the SG as a distraction as an O Player, not a D Player. Secondly, not every incoming O is able to be killed, the SG is to ensure that weaken foes die, not a weaken foe kills the SG, takes the flag out of the flagroom and dies.

Should scouts be able to rotate along the SG, yes, they are a movement class, should a medic? Not as easily as a scout. As a Medic is a Hybrid class, not a straight movement class. As it stands now, a Medic, even with a solly attacking him can EASILY destroy an SG with a few nails and a nade. Remember Engys are EASILY killed. 80H/50A. Medic VS Engy, Medic should win. Medic VS SG/Engy Medics should have trouble trying to run directly into with a super nailgun. It should NOT be able to walk directly up to it and be able to bash it.

You also can't generalize the SG for every map as well, which you are doing. Each map is different, each SG is placed differently in each map and has to be played differently.

Look at schtop:

You place it on the left hand(or right, depending which way you are facing)( side aiming towards the opening. Why? Because it can hit the O as they came up. Doesn't do much good, as they can walk up to the SG without a problem.

Look at Well:
You don't usually place it in the Flag Room, as it's wide open and easily passable. So you put in in the Middle Room on the sides.

Bases:
Flagroom on the side.

Trench :
Looking directly down the hallway. Covers the flag and 1 hallway.

If you have it as a distraction it goes like this , Scout:"Oh, lawl, an SG,*conc by*"

Not a distraction Scout: "Shit! A SG * goes another way till it's taken down by a medic or solly"

UGghh, Riceyy.. I'm really trying to find an agreement man, but I have an argument with almost everything you talked about.

First off the 3v3 matches, you don't normally have an SG, because there isn't as much to work with as there would be with 8 people. Since we've moved on to examples, I'll throw some names out there as well..

O Team: Spoon (sct), Jay (sct), Neon (mdc)
D Team: Losi (sld), Church (sld), Mental (eng)

The Map is Schtop.

Gun goes up in the Flag room, facing towards the ramp and button. Losi is playing button choke point. Church is Playing Front entrance. Spoon passes em up, get's the button. Losi moves back button more to stop sliding scouts. Church moves to flagroom ramp. Jay takes button and takes out Losi. There is no one there to replace Losi except for Mental who then put's himself at risk. Though by that time the medic is dead and all Mental has to do is block a few scouts and let the Sg pop them as they get in. And if anyone is coming straight at an SG, IT WILL PUSH THEM, even stop them in their tracks. The SG is set up in a good spot. And By that time, Church can rotate to button as Losi takes flagroom ramp. And it just rotates.

Now if someone were to get into the flagroom, I know I personally as an Engineer would position myself against wall beside the sg, thus allowing nothing to circle my gun. It's as simple as that. As A soldier I know better then to shoot directly at an SG or throw a nade if there's a scout around the SG. Thus FF is less of a factor.

Same Players except Losi is Demo now, 3v3, on the Map of Openfire.

SG placed spawn side of flag room, about midway in the balcony. from there and can get anything from the bottom of the ramp. Demo on flag, and Solly playing beside flag point looking down both button hall and balcony.

Now believe it or not, the SG is pretty hard to take down from the spot it's at. It will go down every once in a while but whose to say the SG is suppose to stay up the whole entire time? It's just a nice spot to have it and easy to protect. As long as you hide behind the SG, crouched even, you really won't take damage from nades that fly up to it. Also the Dispenser should always be built first before the SG, because you can actually take 30 cells from the dispenser after you build it, thus giving you 130 which is enough to make an SG (I'm sure you know that). If Church dies It takes him maybe 4-6 seconds to get back where he was. In that time the demo can toss a few spam nades out, or move the engi to intercept until the return of the solly, which is quicker then the medic. There isn't a problem here either. The SG will get 20 something kills in a 3v3 match, which isn't bad considering it's only 3 offensive players. And if you tally in the Engi, it's pretty dominant. I've played through these matches and have seen them succeed pretty well. Regardless the scouts will cap about 7-14 times that map depending on every defensive factor.

Now that's just Pickup style.

Chances are if you play with an SG in any pub, with very few people (who know how to play,) you're not going to get very far without a good defense, despite how good or bad the SG is or can get/will be/already is. Also Medic's can't run right into an sg and take it out. They will actually get pushed. I've seen this before. It really all depends on who is attacking your SG. And most people in Pub's won't know how to take out an sg properly, thus I believe it's ok to say that the SG is fine when it comes to pub games. As far as AvD is concerned.. Since Chille will probably bring this up eventually... No 1 SG can get the job done. When have you very seen 1 SG work in any AvD via TFC/FF? Most of the Time I see 2 sg's, and that really helps things along. OH! that's another point. What if in a pub game, you have 2 sg's instead of one in maps like destroy or Anything like that? I don't know about you, but after dealing with all the bull shit around the entrance to any enemy base, going up against 2 sg's is rough. So if you were to buff the SG's, how the hell would that make it any better? Plus by the time you take one down, the other one usually gets you. And by that time, the other SG previously taken down is BACK UP!. So then what?

And finally, for your map examples I have this to say for each:

Well - I actually build in the Flag spot area with the SG, placing my Dispenser at the Entrance to the flag. And I'll always remain near the elevators. If I see someone conc up, then I immediately attempt to cut them off. If they pass me while on their way into the room, I'll Emp the wall from the inside to hit them from the outside. I also have a Dispenser I can blow up on them. If anyone get's past that, or takes the cage area through, the sg will normally tag them as they jump through, pushing them. Again, it does push. The only time I'd build outside the flagroom is if the flag was out of it.

Bases - The Gun is normally placed against the wall, behind the Flag, near the Bag, dispenser by the bag, and the engi near it. And normally there's more then one person in the flag room playing D. If you're the only one playing flag room and you're an engi, then you need to play up and hit em early that way the Gun can finish the job. It's a duel effort.

Schtop - Explain above.

As for this: "If you have it as a distraction it goes like this , Scout:"Oh, lawl, an SG,*conc by*""

If you're placing it in a spot to primarily focus it on scouts, and that situation happens, then guess what? It's in a bad spot. If your primary focus is to stop rotating scouts, or scouts that fly by without an issue, then you need to place the gun in a spot that will take the Scout head on most of the time. It does work as long as you know how to protect your gun. And to be honest, you can't just refer to a single SG in any map, without the rest of the defense involved. That's just silly.

On a final note, If a scout has to stop playing scout to take out an SG -- if a Medic has to take out an SG in order for a scout to get closer to the flag, Then that Ricey, is a distraction.
You're turn Ricey, hit me. lol