ffdev roll call - Page 6

XPelargos · 06-23-2014, 02:42 AM

If it's a mod that will put it in a legal gray area for getting funding from kickstarter.

XPelargos · 06-23-2014, 03:16 AM

What concerns me most is how much of a remake this will be.

Will we have to tap crouch at the top of a ramp slide?
Will there be cl_autoreload 1?
Will you spawn with half armor? (Such a strange idea, since nearly every spawn room just put the armor there anyway.)
What about Teleporters?

A "frame for frame" TFC remake is okay, but surely we've learned something about good game design in 16 years since its release.

What is "vestigial" about the Team Fortress style and what should remain?

the_cake · 06-23-2014, 04:11 AM

Needing to get health/armor/ammo does a little more than people think in comp play. It prevents soldiers from being able to consistently rocket jump back to position on a lot of maps before the o has a chance to really do anything.

In FF this creates a weird dynamic where it's actually better NOT to kill the soldier, but rather to get him down low enough that one nade will kill him next run or he'll have to reload before suiciding (usually enough time for you or teammate to beat him to his spot). Killing him and getting out with very little health left actually helps the enemy team, you've just respawned the sol with full health (-rj) and nades, you're too weak to do anything, and the backline knows exactly where your team is and can probably hold for the 3 seconds it takes the sol to get back even if you have support. This is why the plays in ff that actually get work done usually involve concing by a preoccupied frontline.

Bags created an interesting dynamic for sol in tfc, you COULD skip the bags and rocket jump back if the situation demanded it, but you would have basically no health and risk starting the flood gate effect. Skipping the bags and RJing back every time was not sustainable like in FF, you had to choose when it would benefit your team. A smart soldier on a team with good comms would know when to rush back and when to let the backline handle it.

XPelargos · 06-23-2014, 05:22 AM

That's a good point and something I've been working on. An almost dead frontline defender is better than a frontline defender that dies at the same time as your scouts.

What I"m hoping for is a deeper understanding of the pace of the game. Maps dictate the pace somewhat but also the base movement speed, speed with rockets, concs, nades, pipes, etc.

A lot of competitive strategy was built on "breaking" the game (quotes are necessary because not all broken things are bad.). BHop is very deep and fun to analyze, because it's based on breaking vector physics in a way Jon Carmack didn't foresee. http://www.funender.com/quake/articl...ng_theory.html

What I mean by "vestigial" is looking at mechanics that have become so broken that they are now part of the required skills to success.

Bunny Hopping, Conc jumping, trimping, sliding, etc. are encouraged in FF while they were not initially intended to be used the way they are used back in 1996.

Saving a keystroke at the top of a ramp is a good thing FF did, IMO. Unnecessary keystrokes =/= skill.

But deeper than keystrokes, the actual math behind speed, self damage (Some people think FF Nades self hurt too much. They could be used as movement tools more than they are currently), even respawn. (A different penalty for death vs suicide could alter the metagame when deciding whether or not to kill yourself.)

Saying "We'll remake TFC" is so vague that it borders on the meaningless. Team Fortress comp, Team Fortress pub, and Team Fortress skillz focus on very different aspects of the classes. And really, it seems like a copout to do a copy of something 16 years old. It says that nothing has been learned in that time.

FDA_Approved · 06-23-2014, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XPelargos

(Some people think FF Nades self hurt too much. They could be used as movement tools more than they are currently)

Tbh it'd be nice if you could even get a decent horizontal jump with one. Other than that they are more useful for movement than most people take advantage of, I think. Still would be nice to see a little more flexibility and speed out of nades.

FF's knock back mechanics suck all the dicks. Explosions are weird and not as fun as in other games.

NeonLight · 06-23-2014, 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FDA_Approved

Tbh it'd be nice if you could even get a decent horizontal jump with one. Other than that they are more useful for movement than most people take advantage of, I think. Still would be nice to see a little more flexibility and speed out of nades.

FF's knock back mechanics suck all the dicks. Explosions are weird and not as fun as in other games.

P sure I'm the best nade using medic in the game.

FDA_Approved · 06-23-2014, 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voss

P sure I'm the best nade using medic in the game.

By a slim margin at best. Get at me.

XPelargos · 06-23-2014, 06:25 AM

That's not the point, NeoN. Everyone knows you're da bes.

The issue at hand is whether we can give ALL people more fun tools to use.

You'd still be da bes, but we'd ALL have more fun with slightly more fluid movement.

Headz · 06-23-2014, 01:14 PM

Thinking about it, I really like ff as it is, for me I would be happy just seeing it on a more sophisticated engine, I can imagine how amazing maps like monkey and palermo would look.

Work can be started on player models/animations and updated props.
We need some great texture artists, are the original textures that were made have a higher res when created and scaled down?

By the time the above is ready perhaps info on source2 release date will be announced. It would seem the natural progression, porting existing maps a breeze, and launch ff2 with a rich map selection.

**Elmo** · 06-23-2014, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Headz

Work can be started on player models/animations and updated props.
We need some great texture artists, are the original textures that were made have a higher res when created and scaled down?

As far as I know we have no source files for the textures. So that'd probably be a fresh-ish start too.

AfterShock · 06-23-2014, 08:16 PM

For a twitch FPS like FF / TFC, visibility is super important - you can't have players missing important things like grenades or even players zooming past because they are distracted by whizzy effects. sun flares, bloomy light, smoke coming out of vents etc.

It's been said that FF is harder to see what's going on than TFC, and that's in part due to the "realism" or texture details on maps, but also due to thin models. I posted a screenshot in the dev forums a while back showing how on many maps (for example) backpacks were much easier to see than players.

So it's a difficult balance, you want the maps to look good, but you need a clean look and good enough player models so you can easily see at a glance what's going on - this includes things like exactly which direction players are facing so you can dodge rockets before they fire. (FF's RPG doesn't point towards where the rocket goes).

JackBauer · 06-23-2014, 10:15 PM

As much as the thought of a new tfc experience been thrilling me for days, it would have to implement modern factors.

no matter how much I used to enjoy tfc back in the day, I don't think a modernized version would be working well in 2015/2016 or whenever.

Times have changed, standards and taste have become different. People want instant success/kills. People want to customize their weapons, characters and so on. casual gaming anyone.

in order to enjoy some success, don't think you could ignore modern and popular elements* - however if made rightly, we all could benefit and it could take the game to the next level.

*minor things though - without effecting the actual gameplay

FDA_Approved · 06-23-2014, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AfterShock

For a twitch FPS like FF / TFC, visibility is super important - you can't have players missing important things like grenades or even players zooming past because they are distracted by whizzy effects. sun flares, bloomy light, smoke coming out of vents etc.

It's been said that FF is harder to see what's going on than TFC, and that's in part due to the "realism" or texture details on maps, but also due to thin models. I posted a screenshot in the dev forums a while back showing how on many maps (for example) backpacks were much easier to see than players.

So it's a difficult balance, you want the maps to look good, but you need a clean look and good enough player models so you can easily see at a glance what's going on - this includes things like exactly which direction players are facing so you can dodge rockets before they fire. (FF's RPG doesn't point towards where the rocket goes).

What? FF is more visually accessible than TFC by a huge margin, I think.

trepid_jon · 06-23-2014, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FDA_Approved

What? FF is more visually accessible than TFC by a huge margin, I think.

I think FF's style is all over the place without a cohesive art direction keeping it together overall, which makes it difficult to read compared to a game like TF2. FF isn't terrible by any stretch, but it could be better. It could also have more titties, but unfortunately we don't always get everything we want.

XPelargos · 06-24-2014, 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AfterShock

For a twitch FPS like FF / TFC, visibility is super important - you can't have players missing important things like grenades or even players zooming past because they are distracted by whizzy effects. sun flares, bloomy light, smoke coming out of vents etc.

It's been said that FF is harder to see what's going on than TFC, and that's in part due to the "realism" or texture details on maps, but also due to thin models. I posted a screenshot in the dev forums a while back showing how on many maps (for example) backpacks were much easier to see than players.

So it's a difficult balance, you want the maps to look good, but you need a clean look and good enough player models so you can easily see at a glance what's going on - this includes things like exactly which direction players are facing so you can dodge rockets before they fire. (FF's RPG doesn't point towards where the rocket goes).

This is an important post.

Visual Style is crucial, and the combination of superfast moving targets, and all 9 classes having the same voice, makes it hard to differentiate. The FF MOdels inspiration thread is very smart to go by outlines first.

And +1 to the FF RPG.

XPelargos · 06-24-2014, 02:08 AM

Just letting you know this is a lot of work.

Texture work is no joke.
Prop work is no joke.
Model work is no joke.

And Ass and Titties? We gotta get them shakin' too!

Powerlord · 06-24-2014, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trepid_jon

I think FF's style is all over the place without a cohesive art direction keeping it together overall, which makes it difficult to read compared to a game like TF2. FF isn't terrible by any stretch, but it could be better. It could also have more titties, but unfortunately we don't always get everything we want.

I'm glad this is on your radar for the remake.

If anything, the classes should look and sound totally different from each other (even though they're drawn in the same style) just so you can tell classes apart at a distance. Silhouettes are the exact place to start for this and Valve commented as such in the TF2 commentary maps.

Now, for a different subject: As much as I want to support Valve and encourage you to use Source 2, it doesn't look like anyone has access to the Source 2 dev kit yet outside of Valve. Meaning that if you want to start actual game development anytime soon, you need to use Unreal 4.

That in turn presents a problem for those of us who write server plugins (I write a lot of them for TF2 and other games, including exposing the game's vote UI to other server plugins). Right now, as far as I'm aware, I can write SourceMod plugins that will run on Fortress Forever. If it were a Source SDK 2013 game, I'd be able to do it there, too. Chances are SourceMod will be adapted for Source 2 when it comes out as well.

I have no clue how to write server plugins for Unreal 4 and chances are it's not similar in the slightest.

PHISH · 06-24-2014, 07:49 PM

IMO it's a waste of effort to exactly replicate TFC, especially with valve looming. Isn't that the lesson we learned w/ FF? We tried to walk that line so much in FF and it took so much time and resources just to try and get parity with TFC (which while getting close we did not even achieve) and everything else suffered/people were long burned out by release, etc..

If you are serious about this my advice would be to NOT re-create TFC, instead try to identify and agree on what core elements made TFC fun for different people...master those core elements, and build onto that from a fresh starting point. It can be done better. Don't focus on every little quirk that was in TFC, drill down into the underlying aspects of what made it fun. It is less about the specific 'what' and more about the 'why. i.e. concs were fun because they offered a viable alternative to brute force to get around somebody. You could use them to propel yourself past an opponent, or to dizzy them, or to propel your opponent out of position in a myriad of ways. There was a tremendous depth in skill in just using that one mechanic. What that mechanic allowed is what is important, not the specific implementation. But things like separate health and armor? Yeah it provided little tiny quirks, but ultimately was totally secondary to what made the game fun. It only existed in the first place because it was grandfathered in.

There's so many little aspects that are nostalgic and have charm and created very specific little strategies over the years, but they were not core to what made the game fun. In many cases they added needless complexity. A lot of them were annoyances we grew to learn and adapted to and eventually loved. The problem is that the next generation of players will not stay through that experience.

When I have played other games like monday night combat, or titanfall they have hit on some core elements that made tfc fun for me (despite totally different approaches), but miss on others. The best way to re-capture the 'magic' of tfc is to build out something new w/ the same underlying concepts.

Anyway that unsolicited advice aside I hope you would shoot for the simplest, cleanest art style you can produce w/ the fewest amount of resources. Hell dev texture maps in source are very popular and they use something like 3 different textures.

XPelargos · 06-24-2014, 11:19 PM

A very helpful post.

"instead try to identify and agree on what core elements made TFC fun for different people"

Boom. This is it right here.

What makes FF fun for me is the focus on movement abilities vs fragging abilities.

In a CTF environment, (and many AvD environments) the two teams have wildly different focuses.

I love having movement techniques to get flags, and I enjoy having tools to stop those movement techniques when on defense.

Concs offer movement of yourself and movement of the enemy.
Projectile weapons offer momentum to stop attackers.

This is why I'm so gungho about a grappling hook for the spy. Right now spy has no special movement techniques and he's ostensibly an "offense" class.

Every offense class should have some sort of movement technique.

The beta scout movement gun, the jpad, concs, whatever.

**Dexter** · 06-25-2014, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PHISH

will not stay through that experience.

did not!

agree

06-23-2014, 04:11 AM	#103
the_cake Beta Tester Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts Rated Helpful 144 Times	Needing to get health/armor/ammo does a little more than people think in comp play. It prevents soldiers from being able to consistently rocket jump back to position on a lot of maps before the o has a chance to really do anything. In FF this creates a weird dynamic where it's actually better NOT to kill the soldier, but rather to get him down low enough that one nade will kill him next run or he'll have to reload before suiciding (usually enough time for you or teammate to beat him to his spot). Killing him and getting out with very little health left actually helps the enemy team, you've just respawned the sol with full health (-rj) and nades, you're too weak to do anything, and the backline knows exactly where your team is and can probably hold for the 3 seconds it takes the sol to get back even if you have support. This is why the plays in ff that actually get work done usually involve concing by a preoccupied frontline. Bags created an interesting dynamic for sol in tfc, you COULD skip the bags and rocket jump back if the situation demanded it, but you would have basically no health and risk starting the flood gate effect. Skipping the bags and RJing back every time was not sustainable like in FF, you had to choose when it would benefit your team. A smart soldier on a team with good comms would know when to rush back and when to let the backline handle it. Last edited by the_cake; 06-23-2014 at 04:12 AM.
	1 members found this post helpful.

06-23-2014, 05:22 AM	#104
XPelargos I like to spam binds Beta Tester Join Date: May 2009 Class/Position: Scoooooot Gametype: Capture the Flag Posts Rated Helpful 73 Times	That's a good point and something I've been working on. An almost dead frontline defender is better than a frontline defender that dies at the same time as your scouts. What I"m hoping for is a deeper understanding of the pace of the game. Maps dictate the pace somewhat but also the base movement speed, speed with rockets, concs, nades, pipes, etc. A lot of competitive strategy was built on "breaking" the game (quotes are necessary because not all broken things are bad.). BHop is very deep and fun to analyze, because it's based on breaking vector physics in a way Jon Carmack didn't foresee. http://www.funender.com/quake/articl...ng_theory.html What I mean by "vestigial" is looking at mechanics that have become so broken that they are now part of the required skills to success. Bunny Hopping, Conc jumping, trimping, sliding, etc. are encouraged in FF while they were not initially intended to be used the way they are used back in 1996. Saving a keystroke at the top of a ramp is a good thing FF did, IMO. Unnecessary keystrokes =/= skill. But deeper than keystrokes, the actual math behind speed, self damage (Some people think FF Nades self hurt too much. They could be used as movement tools more than they are currently), even respawn. (A different penalty for death vs suicide could alter the metagame when deciding whether or not to kill yourself.) Saying "We'll remake TFC" is so vague that it borders on the meaningless. Team Fortress comp, Team Fortress pub, and Team Fortress skillz focus on very different aspects of the classes. And really, it seems like a copout to do a copy of something 16 years old. It says that nothing has been learned in that time. Last edited by XPelargos; 06-23-2014 at 05:23 AM.

06-23-2014, 01:14 PM	#109
Headz Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: England Posts Rated Helpful 81 Times	Thinking about it, I really like ff as it is, for me I would be happy just seeing it on a more sophisticated engine, I can imagine how amazing maps like monkey and palermo would look. Work can be started on player models/animations and updated props. We need some great texture artists, are the original textures that were made have a higher res when created and scaled down? By the time the above is ready perhaps info on source2 release date will be announced. It would seem the natural progression, porting existing maps a breeze, and launch ff2 with a rich map selection. __________________ Compile error: Leaf portal saw into Cluster Phuck

06-23-2014, 10:15 PM	#112
JackBauer Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Switzerland Posts Rated Helpful 20 Times	As much as the thought of a new tfc experience been thrilling me for days, it would have to implement modern factors. no matter how much I used to enjoy tfc back in the day, I don't think a modernized version would be working well in 2015/2016 or whenever. Times have changed, standards and taste have become different. People want instant success/kills. People want to customize their weapons, characters and so on. casual gaming anyone. in order to enjoy some success, don't think you could ignore modern and popular elements* - however if made rightly, we all could benefit and it could take the game to the next level. minor things though - without effecting the actual gameplay __________________ Swiss Fortress Community* Last edited by JackBauer; 06-23-2014 at 10:18 PM.

06-24-2014, 07:49 PM	#118
PHISH Retired FF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: cow college Posts Rated Helpful 13 Times	IMO it's a waste of effort to exactly replicate TFC, especially with valve looming. Isn't that the lesson we learned w/ FF? We tried to walk that line so much in FF and it took so much time and resources just to try and get parity with TFC (which while getting close we did not even achieve) and everything else suffered/people were long burned out by release, etc.. If you are serious about this my advice would be to NOT re-create TFC, instead try to identify and agree on what core elements made TFC fun for different people...master those core elements, and build onto that from a fresh starting point. It can be done better. Don't focus on every little quirk that was in TFC, drill down into the underlying aspects of what made it fun. It is less about the specific 'what' and more about the 'why. i.e. concs were fun because they offered a viable alternative to brute force to get around somebody. You could use them to propel yourself past an opponent, or to dizzy them, or to propel your opponent out of position in a myriad of ways. There was a tremendous depth in skill in just using that one mechanic. What that mechanic allowed is what is important, not the specific implementation. But things like separate health and armor? Yeah it provided little tiny quirks, but ultimately was totally secondary to what made the game fun. It only existed in the first place because it was grandfathered in. There's so many little aspects that are nostalgic and have charm and created very specific little strategies over the years, but they were not core to what made the game fun. In many cases they added needless complexity. A lot of them were annoyances we grew to learn and adapted to and eventually loved. The problem is that the next generation of players will not stay through that experience. When I have played other games like monday night combat, or titanfall they have hit on some core elements that made tfc fun for me (despite totally different approaches), but miss on others. The best way to re-capture the 'magic' of tfc is to build out something new w/ the same underlying concepts. Anyway that unsolicited advice aside I hope you would shoot for the simplest, cleanest art style you can produce w/ the fewest amount of resources. Hell dev texture maps in source are very popular and they use something like 3 different textures.
	6 members found this post helpful.

06-23-2014, 02:42 AM	#101
XPelargos I like to spam binds Beta Tester Join Date: May 2009 Class/Position: Scoooooot Gametype: Capture the Flag Posts Rated Helpful 73 Times	If it's a mod that will put it in a legal gray area for getting funding from kickstarter.

06-23-2014, 03:16 AM	#102
XPelargos I like to spam binds Beta Tester Join Date: May 2009 Class/Position: Scoooooot Gametype: Capture the Flag Posts Rated Helpful 73 Times	What concerns me most is how much of a remake this will be. Will we have to tap crouch at the top of a ramp slide? Will there be cl_autoreload 1? Will you spawn with half armor? (Such a strange idea, since nearly every spawn room just put the armor there anyway.) What about Teleporters? A "frame for frame" TFC remake is okay, but surely we've learned something about good game design in 16 years since its release. What is "vestigial" about the Team Fortress style and what should remain?

06-23-2014, 06:25 AM	#108
XPelargos I like to spam binds Beta Tester Join Date: May 2009 Class/Position: Scoooooot Gametype: Capture the Flag Posts Rated Helpful 73 Times	That's not the point, NeoN. Everyone knows you're da bes. The issue at hand is whether we can give ALL people more fun tools to use. You'd still be da bes, but we'd ALL have more fun with slightly more fluid movement.

06-23-2014, 08:16 PM	#111
AfterShock Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 45 Times	For a twitch FPS like FF / TFC, visibility is super important - you can't have players missing important things like grenades or even players zooming past because they are distracted by whizzy effects. sun flares, bloomy light, smoke coming out of vents etc. It's been said that FF is harder to see what's going on than TFC, and that's in part due to the "realism" or texture details on maps, but also due to thin models. I posted a screenshot in the dev forums a while back showing how on many maps (for example) backpacks were much easier to see than players. So it's a difficult balance, you want the maps to look good, but you need a clean look and good enough player models so you can easily see at a glance what's going on - this includes things like exactly which direction players are facing so you can dodge rockets before they fire. (FF's RPG doesn't point towards where the rocket goes).

06-24-2014, 02:08 AM	#116
XPelargos I like to spam binds Beta Tester Join Date: May 2009 Class/Position: Scoooooot Gametype: Capture the Flag Posts Rated Helpful 73 Times	Just letting you know this is a lot of work. Texture work is no joke. Prop work is no joke. Model work is no joke. And Ass and Titties? We gotta get them shakin' too!

06-24-2014, 11:19 PM	#119
XPelargos I like to spam binds Beta Tester Join Date: May 2009 Class/Position: Scoooooot Gametype: Capture the Flag Posts Rated Helpful 73 Times	A very helpful post. "instead try to identify and agree on what core elements made TFC fun for different people" Boom. This is it right here. What makes FF fun for me is the focus on movement abilities vs fragging abilities. In a CTF environment, (and many AvD environments) the two teams have wildly different focuses. I love having movement techniques to get flags, and I enjoy having tools to stop those movement techniques when on defense. Concs offer movement of yourself and movement of the enemy. Projectile weapons offer momentum to stop attackers. This is why I'm so gungho about a grappling hook for the spy. Right now spy has no special movement techniques and he's ostensibly an "offense" class. Every offense class should have some sort of movement technique. The beta scout movement gun, the jpad, concs, whatever.

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