Flagrun Suggestions

[Ricey]

Originally Posted by Gwarsbane

Blah BLah Blah Something Gwar Says Blah

It takes you ten seconds to get to the Flagroom from your own spawn O_O, slow ass. I can have a Disp and and a SG being built by the time a scout gets into the FR, and if I am alone that's the other D's Fault for being slow and not knowing how to play a simple map.

Even a nub half assed bhopping pyro can make it to the flagroom in under ten seconds.


Same thing can be applied to the map aarrrrdddddarrvaaarkkkk*stutters some more with autism* Takes a good scout ten seconds to get to the flagroom.

Takes me 10 seconds to get a Disp and a Level 2 SG up. But, yet you dont see O complaining about how a engy can be fully setup within seconds along with the D.

[Gwarsbane]

Originally Posted by GenghisTron

It should take you no more than 4-5 seconds from top spawn to the flagroom (unless you get cock blocked at the spawn exit doors), and that leaves enough time to get a Level 1 SG up.

Sorry, your hypothetical situation just doesn't work. It doesn't take 10 seconds to get to the flag room and get an SG up, and moreover, you shouldn't be alone in doing so. If you're alone, you're going to lose no matter what, the flagrun flagroom is huge and one person cannot defend it alone.

As was pointed out in the last thread, coming up on over a year ago, your hypothetical situation does not follow.

Originally Posted by Ricey

It takes you ten seconds to get to the Flagroom from your own spawn O_O, slow ass. I can have a Disp and and a SG being built by the time a scout gets into the FR, and if I am alone that's the other D's Fault for being slow and not knowing how to play a simple map.

Even a nub half assed bhopping pyro can make it to the flagroom in under ten seconds.


Same thing can be applied to the map aarrrrdddddarrvaaarkkkk*stutters some more with autism* Takes a good scout ten seconds to get to the flagroom.

Takes me 10 seconds to get a Disp and a Level 2 SG up. But, yet you dont see O complaining about how a engy can be fully setup within seconds along with the D.

I guess neither of you ever consider that there are other people on the server and that everyone spawns in the same room. When the map first plays and if its coming off a popular map and the server is full, it can be hard to get out of the spawn room in any kind of speed.

And Ricey knows for a fact when it comes to bunny hopping speed, I'm no slouch. I can get any class up to their top hopping speed quickly. Heck I can outrun most classes as a heavy. You've seen that first hand Ricey

If you just happen to be one of the lucky ones to get spawned near the flag room door great, you might be able to get to the flag room quickly and start building. But Ricey unless you somehow magically teleport next to the resupply bag and that bag regenerates faster for you then everyone else, there is no way you can get a level 2 up with a dispenser in the flag room of flag run before a decent scout gets in there and grabs the flag and then concs out.


Also comparing aardvark to flag run... thats a complete fail as they are 2 different kinds of maps. With aardvark defense can quickly setup an SG in the flag room and easily have it up to level 2 without a dispenser before someone comes flying in.

There is also the fact that even if a scout grabs the flag and caps it the round keeps going and you don't have to start from scratch all over again. If they cap your SG is still up and it can be level 3 with a near full dispenser.

On flag run however, once the 4th flag is capped, round over you get respawned, sgs and dispensers get destroyed and guess what you start from scratch.

So you can't compare maps like aardvark to flag run.



All I'm talking about is giving the defense an extra 10-15 seconds or so to be able to set up defense, are you really scared. Sure seems like you don't want any kind decent defense to be setup.

[GenghisTron]

Originally Posted by Gwarsbane

I guess neither of you ever consider that there are other people on the server and that everyone spawns in the same room. When the map first plays and if its coming off a popular map and the server is full, it can be hard to get out of the spawn room in any kind of speed.

It should take you no more than 4-5 seconds from top spawn to the flagroom (unless you get cock blocked at the spawn exit doors)

Even then, that's no excuse.

Originally Posted by Gwarsbane

there is no way you can get a level 2 up with a dispenser in the flag room of flag run before a decent scout gets in there and grabs the flag and then concs out

One SG is not meant to hold down the flagrun flagroom. The flagroom is far too large, and it's far too easy for any class to take out an SG by hiding around corners. Your problem seems to be that no one helps you defend the flagroom. Considering this is a team fortress game, the fact that you're bitching that you can't get a dispenser and a level 2 sg up on a map with a HUGE flagroom is kind of a joke. It sounds to me like the last thing you tried was altering your own strategy and playing something other than engy. No matter how you slice it, your hypothetical scenario doesn't hold water.

Flagrun is fine, stop bitching, etc.

[Gwarsbane]

Wow totally still ignore whats going on... no defense can be setup... no soldiers, no demos, no engies, no sgs.... NO ONE can make it to the flag room to setup a defense BEFORE the scout from the other team can get there.

And even then its put luck if you can slow him down or stop him.




And you say its no excuse not being able to get out of your spawn because you're blocked by others... well then what would you suggest to get out of the spawn faster while being blocked by others? teleport past them? No that won't work... ask them to move? no that won't work cause it still takes time for them to move... run over top of their heads like you're on stilts? no that won't work... push them out of the way? no that won't work...

So please inform us of how we're suppose to get through a crowd of people? Oh wait we can't so I guess its as good as an excuse as anything when being blocked by people.



You want flag run exactly as it is now and you expect people to play the new one more? Isn't the definition of insanity doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. People don't play the current one because rounds are over too quick when there is a decent concer on one team. Other then that its a decent map, a few bugs still that would be nice to have fixed but other then the bottom spawn not being used (as far as I know its not used as I never spawned in it ever).

Maybe the changes coming in the next patch will help (slightly buffed sg and heavy) but the fact is you have to be able to be there in the flag room to be able to stop someone from taking it and as has been mentioned scouts CAN get from their respawn to enemy flag room as fast or faster then any defenders.

Ricey knows I don't lie, I haven't lied to him about any of the problems I see. What I have said has been confirmed by someone else. Hell I'm sure if I looked I could eventually find a demo of nubs getting to the flag room before me and I'm going at top speed.


I'm trying to improve the game to get more people to play, giving the defense an extra 10 to 15 seconds to setup, get into position or what ever will not ruin the game and it will not ruin the map. Heck you can't ruin a map that is virtually never played and clears out servers.

Heck just putting the scouts and medics into the lower spawn and have them released at the same time as everyone else would be a good start and might be all thats needed as they are further away and would have to go through 2 tunnels to get to the enemy flag room.

[Ricey]

Elwood>Gwar, enough said.

Warpath works the same way, scouts will get to any CAP zone before any other class. It's meant to be that way.

[GenghisTron]

You should probably stop lying and being so dramatic.

[Gwarsbane]

Originally Posted by Ricey

Elwood>Gwar, enough said.

Warpath works the same way, scouts will get to any CAP zone before any other class. It's meant to be that way.

Again different type of map. With warpath (as long as its the same style as it was in TFC) you have a line of cap points you have to hit and keep. A scout can't just go all the way from his base to your base and hit every single cap point before you can even get out of your own base area. There are too many twists and turns and edges and a scout can't hold the cap points they get.

Originally Posted by GenghisTron

You should probably stop lying and being so dramatic.

You're the only one that was lying. I've told the truth, I was backed up by nubs saying that he can make it to the flag room even before stuff was being set up. But you just can't seem to accept the fact that its true. Maybe its because you can't do it yourself, maybe its cause you don't want the map to be played often. Maybe its because all you play is scout and anything that even suggests slowing the scout down on the map you don't like.

I don't know why you are so unwilling to give the suggestion made a try and keep saying I'm lying (even after I showed I wasn't).

You're the one that make a crap claim and was provided a link to prove you were lying. You said it can't be done, I said it could, nubs even confirmed he did it.

[Bridget]

NIGGA PLEASE

[Iggy]

Originally Posted by Ricey

Elwood>Gwar, enough said.

Warpath works the same way, scouts will get to any CAP zone before any other class. It's meant to be that way.

Check your PM's..... biatch!

[Ricey]

No Iggy, i won't wear a skirt to the dance! I had to do it last time!

[Iggy]

How about a Skort, then?

[Gwarsbane]

And of course the racist crap comes out when they have no actual argument to back anything up.

It would be nice if the admins and mods would do something about idiots like that. It gives the mod a bad name letting stuff like that go on around here, specially when the user has the beta team tag on.

[GenghisTron]

Originally Posted by Gwarsbane

You're the only one that was lying. I've told the truth, I was backed up by nubs saying that he can make it to the flag room even before stuff was being set up. But you just can't seem to accept the fact that its true. Maybe its because you can't do it yourself, maybe its cause you don't want the map to be played often. Maybe its because all you play is scout and anything that even suggests slowing the scout down on the map you don't like.

I don't know why you are so unwilling to give the suggestion made a try and keep saying I'm lying (even after I showed I wasn't).

You're the one that make a crap claim and was provided a link to prove you were lying. You said it can't be done, I said it could, nubs even confirmed he did it.

I haven't played FF in months, I honestly don't give a fuck how often the map gets played. My point is simply that you're lying. You're either a terrible bunnyhopper or you got lost on the way to the flagroom. Just cuz nubs said he beat you to the flagroom doesn't mean shit, it tells me that you don't know what you're doing. If you knew anything about class timing, you'd realize that it's impossible for a scout to beat you to your own flagroom, unless maybe he had a jump pad in the exact optimal spot, and as we all know, jump pads don't last very long, so a scout getting to your flagroom that fast lacks consistency because he needs to keep up with setting up the jpad. As for spawning, I'm pretty sure CJ disabled spawning on the side spawn, so you're coming from one the central spawn, which is maybe 30-40 feet from your spawn, and you have to cross a little bridge, and make way into the flagroom.

As I pointed out earlier, trying to defend the flagroom ALONE as an engy is a terrible mistake, because it just doesn't work. You NEED support, because if you put your sentry gun over the cover right above the main entrance, the enemy offense can just shoot your gun down while staying far out of range. Even if you put your gun right next to the top of the elevator, you risk the same. Offense can use the same corner to throw nades and take down your gun. In this spot, they can also come in from the main entrance and crouch down and get your gun that way, again, avoiding taking damage because of line-of-sight.

So either way, you NEED support. A single engy simply cannot hold that flagroom by himself, it's just too hard. Not only that, you're basically bitching that you can't get setup in time. Well, even if this were true (unlikely at best) on a map like flagrun, Engineer should provide secondary or tertiary support. If you're the only one on your team that's going to defend, going enginner is the laughably worst idea ever. The flagrun flagroom should be manned mainly by soldiers, and only once you have enough soldiers, should you use an SG. I admit it'll be tight getting an SG and a dispenser up, but the thing you seem to be missing is that an SG is not a front-line defense. You're not playing ff_destroy, the flagroom is considerably larger, and is a lot more vulnerable. As an engineer on a large map, you're completely at the mercy of your fellow defenders.

Be less retarded in the future, please.

[Crazycarl]

Does this answer your question, Mike? is this the community you want to map for?

Be civil. If you can't agree on a matter of simple fact, maybe you should go into a server and test it. It's up to the mapper to decide these things after beta testing. Map balance can't be decided through debate.

We devs have pretty much agreed that the more objectives there are in a map, the less fun people have. I would probably make it into a straight CTF map, and balance it as such.

[GenghisTron]

I have no way to test it, and not only that, Gwarsbane is the one making this ridiculous claim (again). The burden of proof is on him. I played many rounds on that map, and I'm like best friends with the guy who made the the FF version of flagrun. It's certainly a hard map to defend, no doubt about that, but people have to realize that sometimes when the game is hard, the fault rests on your shoulders, and not the map's. Maps cannot be made to be perfectly balanced for every situation, so people who play them have to adjust to this accordingly. Simply saying that a good scout can get to the flagroom too soon is not really jusitification for completely gutting the mechanics of the map, as Gwarsbane is suggesting. I've played so many rounds of flagrun in the 10 years I've been playing the map, that the bigger problem is that the map often turns into a HUGE turtlefest, and you have 2 offense struggling against 8+ defense.

Sitting there and playing a class that is poorly suited for a map, and then blaming the map is extremely retarded. It's called an PEBSAK. Problem exists between seat and keyboard. If you can't get an SG up, well, play another class. There's plenty of ways to counter a fast scout rush, ESPCIALLY if it's a single scout. There's no excuse, but come on, let's be real, the problem is not the map.

[Pixel]

... I don't understand.

Why the hell are you putting so much effort into a pointless bitchfest?

This isn't a hard issue either. Go test the damn thing. Seriously, you just insult each other. In fact, that's pretty much the only thing that happens in these forums.

[GenghisTron]

Say stupid shit, you get called on it.

/thread

[Pixel]

Originally Posted by GenghisTron

Say stupid shit, you get called on it.

/thread

^

[Gwarsbane]

Originally Posted by Pixel

... I don't understand.

Why the hell are you putting so much effort into a pointless bitchfest?

This isn't a hard issue either. Go test the damn thing. Seriously, you just insult each other. In fact, that's pretty much the only thing that happens in these forums.

Why would I need to go test it, I've already been through it live on a server.

This guy is arguing against stuff and he doesn't even play the damn game anymore.

Who do you want to make a map for...

Someone who "calls someone out" but doesn't even play the game anymore. Who is unwilling to compromise on things. Who calls someone a lier even AFTER hes had a 3rd party confirm what was being said was true. And who is very rude to people in general.


Or someone who plays the game still nearly every night, on a server that is nearly fully every night. Who is more then wiling to compromise on ideas on how to make the map better. Who doesn't put down other users and toss out racist crap all the time when the other persons ideas are not so good.



I can't personally test the conc jumping because I suck at it. I haven't wanted to talk to nubs for a while now because for what ever reason he started acting like an 8 year old.

I can run to the flag room and setup an sg, but with out someone I know who is a decent concer and knows the map like nubs and won't mess up on purpose just to "prove" I'm wrong, I have no way to do testing with new demos for 2.41 as I have looked through many of my old demos (well the text files I keep with them) and haven't found any flag run demos so far. I know a few good concers, but I don't know how well they know flag run.

I still have the 2.1 and 2.0 demos to look through, that is if they have text files with them as I am not going through every single demo I have to find one just to prove a point that has already been validated a long time ago by a 3rd party. Just to prove a point to someone who doesn't even play the game anymore.


I don't even know why people who don't play the game anymore even bother to post against ideas that could help the game.


And Crazycarl, I hope that was towards, GenghisTron and Bridget cause I have been nice. I haven't called anyone names. I did call Gen a lier because he did lie and I posted the proof on that here with a link to the other thread. Other then that hes the one that hasn't been civil.

[GenghisTron]

1. If you make a claim, you have to justify it. You must back it up with proof. So far you have provided no proof other than a shaky (at best) argument.
2. I provided a reasoned argument against your purported situation. I pointed out that the fault is possibly your own, not particularly the maps.
3. You have provided no intellectual counter to my arguments other than, "OHHHH OHHHHHHHH BUT NUBS SAID........". You essentially have no argument other than completely hear-say evidence.
4. You're making this a huge issue. A map isn't broken because a single engineer cannot defend a gigantic flagroom alone.

Provide some proof other than "LOOK! NUBS SAID X!", or stop crying. Seriously. Also, I love how people cry about previous racism in an effort to get me and Bridget banned posthumously. It's the creed of someone desperate to shut up their opposition. Nice tactics, brah.