Engineer Buildable Ideas - gogogo?

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by episkopos

Really, a gun that never misses is a pretty good deal for a class, the idea of it being able to take out eight people out of ten bumrushing it before it goes down is ridiculous.

You misunderstood. I was talking about an example of 8 out of 10 flagrunners trying to get through an area with the flag that an sg was covering. I wasn't saying that many players before it goes down, nor saying all 10 at once (probably 1 - 3 at a time). These are players focused primarily on capping, not taking out the sg. My point in that post was that even if the sg is smarter and likely damaging more people, it's stopping less flags, which is more important.

In old TF and FF AvD games, the way O usually won was by having some players focused on breaking up D (specifically going after sg's, demomen, etc.) while the flagrunners tried to slip in during the confusion. Nowadays that's usually unnecessary. I can pretty much win most games on O by run, die, run, die, run, die, flag capped, offense wins.

[episkopos]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

You misunderstood. I was talking about an example of 8 out of 10 flagrunners trying to get through an area with the flag that an sg was covering. I wasn't saying that many players before it goes down, nor saying all 10 at once (probably 1 - 3 at a time). These are players focused primarily on capping, not taking out the sg.

Ah, that makes more sense

[Hammock]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

You say "you" and "certain people" but let's name names. Without that I can't tell who you're responding to

Well Bridget for one, as for who else, I honestly don't care to know. He's not the only one who's suggested shielding of some sort. But seriously... shielding is just adjusting sg's life/ac for the most part, it's not a very ingenius idea. As soon as I read the mention of "shield" or something along those lines, I sorta just skip the post. As for me atleast (now this is just my opinion of course), it's not really addressing any problems, other than just giving people a more indestructable sg.

You know it's funny, I chose not to comment on other people's ideas here for a reason, they're just suggestions, just let people speak their mind, add my 2cents, and that's how brainstorming goes. Then he goes with his bitterness shooting down ideas left right and center without actually thinking about them.

So let me lay it out for you Bridget. My suggestion of being able to teleport an sg instantly to a different location, is soo potentially unbelievabley powerfull you have no idea.

Examples:

Map: ff_destroy

Engy builds sg in the corner in the flag room (typical spot). Lets say a demo man and a medic come from button to spam and shoot the shit out of it. Instead of having to stand right in the corner (right where the unavoidable spam is going), he can stand at the top of the ladder, already pre shooting these guys. Pre shooting doesn't work, they get around and throw a mirv 2 nades and a pipe. Before the mirv even goes off, he's triggered the tele move, now all of a sudden the sg is at the top of the ladder.

They've now wasted a significant amount of spam in a corner that has nothing to kill, the SG is now on higher ground with the advantage, and they're both killed in the corner.

Another example. The SG is sitting above the button, engy is in the flag room defending the ramp. He notices the life dropping on his sg, so he teleports his sg back to the flag room, wacks it with his wrench and heals it up to full, mean while the offense who was dealing with the sg at button, now has to contend with a fully healed sg in the flag room.

The possibilities of what moving your sg around can do for the engineer is unbelievable, but since it didn't invovle giving it an amazing shield that makes it super incredibley difficult to kill, it's obviously not something worth even thinking about in your mind as all you want to do is build an sg in a static location that becomes meaningless once that area has no use to defend, then walk away from it.

[Bridget]

Now that you mention being able to pull your Sentry out of spam, I'd like to see the idea tested. It might solve that problem of tweaking the Sentry Gun's stats causing it to be balanced on one map for one game and broken for another map in another game. Nonetheless, my idea has never been to make the Sentry Gun overtly powerful. Right now, it sucks both ways. It sucks in terms of dealing damage and sustaining damage. You have to buff one over the other. It makes sense to buff the defense because the Sentry Gun is supposed to be a support weapon used for weaking and/or finishing off weakened enemies.

There's the problem of offensive Engineering though. What if an Engineer builds up his Sentry Gun in his spawn, runs to the enemy base, then deploys it instantly at their spawn door?

[Hammock]

Originally Posted by Bridget

There's the problem of offensive Engineering though. What if an Engineer builds up his Sentry Gun in his spawn, runs to the enemy base, then deploys it instantly at their spawn door?

Man, you really didn't read my post at all, lol

There could be a range limit placed on the teleporter, so the engy doesn't just build his sg outside his respawn to level 3, then run to the enemy base and instantly have a level 3 sg outside their respawn.

Theoretically, an engy could do a leap frog thing across the map to do this, but is it any faster than what griefers already do and build directly in the base? Not to mention he risks dying and loosing his sg in the yard to enemy forces.

The teleports don't need to be large distances to be usefull, most maps if you really think about it, the bases are relatively small, and this would actually make an engineer think about strategic positions he wants to plan to be in, not just sit in a certain spot all the time.

[Iggy]

Honestly, I like the "leash" idea better. It's not an instantanious movement, and if the other D players don't help stop the flagrunner, then moving it is nearly pointless. Honestly, I don't care if it's just wheels on the SG, being mobile(even in a limited capacity) would be an improvement.

[Hammock]

Originally Posted by Iggy

Honestly, I like the "leash" idea better. It's not an instantanious movement, and if the other D players don't help stop the flagrunner, then moving it is nearly pointless. Honestly, I don't care if it's just wheels on the SG, being mobile(even in a limited capacity) would be an improvement.

I actually like the leash idea better too, the teleporter thing was just another idea. But the leash sounds a lot more fun, plus the teleporter has the potential to be extremely OP'd, and difficult to balance. At least the leash doesn't instantly move the sg out of complete harms way, it's still suspect to damage.

[Iggy]

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was thinking. Still, it's good to see ideas tossed out there. Let's keep them coming!

[FreaK367]

I've thought of a basic adjustment to the SG that could greatly improve its effectiveness.

Simply increase the rate in which the SG can turn and target. Think of how easy it is as a scout to move too fast for the SG to keep up and take little if any damage, if you conc past an SG and it needs to turn to keep up with you, the turning speed is too slow. Hence why a common attack is to run up to the SG and run around it in circles while shooting it with nails. Because the SG just helplessly turns trying to get you in its line of sight and you're too fast for it.

When thinking about this post I pictured an SG in the Aardvark flagroom, and how easy it is to conc across the entire flagroom, take the flag and get out of the flag room, while the SG is trying to follow you across the room. Think if the SG was maybe 50% faster than it is now. Being able to almost instantly lock onto a fast moving enemy and maintain fire even after a conc.

That is a very basic idea compared to the complex things in the rest of this thread, but in my opinion, it would really improve the SG in fast situations that would otherwise elude the SG and Engineer.

[NeonLight]

A few of us in the beta team agree with you on the turn ability but it's very complex to do. I'm sure it'll eventually get tweaked but there has been adjustments for the next patch that should fix some of it.

[Hammock]

Also I'm not sure if you realize this but you just described the single easiest map/flag room for a scout to swoop in and out of. It's a giant "U" shape, and has a long approach from either side, and 2 mini ramps to ramp slide off of.

If you balanced the sg for the easiest map think how difficult it would be for medium-hard maps.

[FreaK367]

Originally Posted by Hammock

Also I'm not sure if you realize this but you just described the single easiest map/flag room for a scout to swoop in and out of. It's a giant "U" shape, and has a long approach from either side, and 2 mini ramps to ramp slide off of.

If you balanced the sg for the easiest map think how difficult it would be for medium-hard maps.

Well, people seem to think the SG is underpowered in general, this solution makes the SG more effective without adding any health, range, firepower or little gimmicks to it. Just making it turn and target faster.

I have mixed feelings on the SG, in my opinion the one thing I consider a downside is how easily it gets killed, an engineer needs to collect what? 390 cells or something to put up a level 3 SG. Then a scout can come along and send a stream of nails at it for about 3 seconds, and unless you're right next to your SG, it's gone. Or any other class can shoot it a few times with the nail gun or shotgun then just throw a grenade and it's destroyed.

[KubeDawg]

I think the dispenser is often overshadowed by the sentry gun. Add different levels to the dispenser. 1, 2 and 3 just like the sentry gun.

Level 1 does everything it does now.

Level 2 has a radar that detects when an enemy is nearby. Similar to detection when someone tries to use it now, but with a greater radius. Either that or armor/ammo depletion if an enemy gets near it.

Level 3 has all of the above, plus the ability to swap locations with your SG. Sort of a 1 use teleport and it could be made so it can only be done when both the SG and dispenser are level 3.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by FreaK367

I've thought of a basic adjustment to the SG that could greatly improve its effectiveness.

Simply increase the rate in which the SG can turn and target. Think of how easy it is as a scout to move too fast for the SG to keep up and take little if any damage, if you conc past an SG and it needs to turn to keep up with you, the turning speed is too slow. Hence why a common attack is to run up to the SG and run around it in circles while shooting it with nails. Because the SG just helplessly turns trying to get you in its line of sight and you're too fast for it.

When thinking about this post I pictured an SG in the Aardvark flagroom, and how easy it is to conc across the entire flagroom, take the flag and get out of the flag room, while the SG is trying to follow you across the room. Think if the SG was maybe 50% faster than it is now. Being able to almost instantly lock onto a fast moving enemy and maintain fire even after a conc.

That is a very basic idea compared to the complex things in the rest of this thread, but in my opinion, it would really improve the SG in fast situations that would otherwise elude the SG and Engineer.

The SG is a double-edged sword. Sure, we can make it more effective in a myriad of ways. But, you have to keep in mind that it is not a player. It is a robot. It is perfect in what we allow it to do, so making it effective against any and all strategies makes it first and foremost frustrating to have to deal with.

The SG wouldn't be doing "well" or "playing better" it'd just be "too effective," and the only thing that could be blamed is the game itself. It's a fine line, and I think having an exploitable AI (turn rate being the best way to make it exploitable in my opinion) remedies a lot of that potential frustration.

[reaper18]

Originally Posted by squeek.

The SG is a double-edged sword. Sure, we can make it more effective in a myriad of ways. But, you have to keep in mind that it is not a player. It is a robot. It is perfect in what we allow it to do, so making it effective against any and all strategies makes it first and foremost frustrating to have to deal with.

The SG wouldn't be doing "well" or "playing better" it'd just be "too effective," and the only thing that could be blamed is the game itself. It's a fine line, and I think having an exploitable AI (turn rate being the best way to make it exploitable in my opinion) remedies a lot of that potential frustration.

couldnt have put it better myself, squeek

[FreaK367]

Originally Posted by squeek.

The SG is a double-edged sword. Sure, we can make it more effective in a myriad of ways. But, you have to keep in mind that it is not a player. It is a robot. It is perfect in what we allow it to do, so making it effective against any and all strategies makes it first and foremost frustrating to have to deal with.

The SG wouldn't be doing "well" or "playing better" it'd just be "too effective," and the only thing that could be blamed is the game itself. It's a fine line, and I think having an exploitable AI (turn rate being the best way to make it exploitable in my opinion) remedies a lot of that potential frustration.

Well said, I don't mind the SG the way it is, but many seem to want to improve it, hence this entire thread mainly focussing around adding a buildable to the game that can protect or temporarily improve the SG. The turning speed was just my two pence for an easier tweak than a brand new buildable.

I would rather see an improvement to its durability than its power/effectiveness. The ease of it being taken out compared to the effort it takes to get it to level 3 is unbalanced in my opinion.

[FreaK367]

To throw out another idea, I think Engineers would appreciate a short term Shield to trigger on the SG.

For those times when you're the only one near your SG, and a scout or any class sends a stream of fire at your SG from out of its range, and you're behind it hitting it with your wrench just keeping it alive. Knowing that unless a team mate jumps in to kill the enemy, you're going to run out of cells and it will blow up in your face...

It could be something where you need to be right next to your SG to trigger it, like close enough to Dismantle, it could be an added option to trigger the shield, which puts a sphere around your SG that absorbs all damage for maybe 5 - 10 seconds. And has a cooldown of 1 - 2 minutes. The same way cloaking for a spy has a short cooldown, but longer, with a small timer or bar on the HUD to show you when it is ready to use again.

This would allow Engineers to trigger the shield then run off to kill the enemy who is trying to take it out from out of its range, which is how SG's get taken out most of the time, bar nade spam.

And the SG's damage output could be reduced by 25% while the shield is active, as to compensate.

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by squeek.

The SG is a double-edged sword. Sure, we can make it more effective in a myriad of ways. But, you have to keep in mind that it is not a player. It is a robot. It is perfect in what we allow it to do, so making it effective against any and all strategies makes it first and foremost frustrating to have to deal with.

I think the charging-it-in-a-straight-fucking-line-while-holding-the-flag is the main "strategy" I'd like it to be able to counter. I think the sg SHOULD be frustrating when players try that.

Originally Posted by FreaK367

Well said, I don't mind the SG the way it is, but many seem to want to improve it, hence this entire thread mainly focussing around adding a buildable to the game that can protect or temporarily improve the SG. The turning speed was just my two pence for an easier tweak than a brand new buildable.

You come across some interesting points. The first is that the discussion DOES seem to be revolving around buffing the sg when I think the extra buildable idea was meant to be more open-ended. I think this is because the problem with the sg has essentially gone unadressed for years, so some people feel like that should be tackled first before looking at more "add on" stuff. It's like spending time focusing on the top row of a pyramid without finishing the foundation first.

You also mention how you mostly think it's fine. Well for you, it might be. If you've read some of my posts, you probably know that my main issue is that it simply doesn't slow down offense that much in AvD, which in turns, contributes heavily to unbalancing the whole game mode. Games will be over way too fast, offense almost always wins, and it's just not as much fun. The reason I reference older versions of FF and TFC is because it wasn't an issue there. From observing what's been changed over the versions, it seems pretty obvious now because of the drastically reduced push. Damage and turning rates seem more or less okay to me. Durability might be an issue because of no splash damage protection from the gun like TFC had, but it's harder to say with that. Push, however, is critical. Push prevents most players from getting close enough to drop grenades or mirvs on your sg in the first place. More crucially it prevents players from doing suicide runs that win the game. Trying to just shrug off the damage and push in TFC by running blindly into the flag DIDN'T work, because the sg would shove your ass back so you couldn't move forward with the flag. You had to develop an actual strategy to deal with the sg or coordinated team effort, which is how I think it should be. In FF, you just run forward over and over again until you cap, I've done it hundred times in most AvD or I/D maps. If you have a diligent demoman on D as well, you either fake him out or wait for another player to set off the pipes, it really is that simple.

Anyway, my point with that mini-rant that most of you have read already anyway is that while the sg strength in AvD is a clear problem, it may not be elsewhere. Before people go and suggest alternate "solutions" what situations OUTSIDE of AvD do people think the sg is underpowered? Name specifics. The aardvark flagroom example doesn't sound like the most concrete one since it's easy to hit blinding speeds in that area that's not as typical of other levels. If there's enough simliarity between CTF and AVD's problems, maybe similar solutions can be worked out. If people think it's fine, then don't fix problems that don't even exist, focus on the ones that do. So to reiterate, what problems does the sg have in CTF?

[episkopos]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

I think the charging-it-in-a-straight-fucking-line-while-holding-the-flag is the main "strategy" I'd like it to be able to counter. I think the sg SHOULD be frustrating when players try that.

Are we playing the same game? I've never survived more than a few seconds of charging an SG in a straight line.

[Hammock]

Originally Posted by episkopos

Are we playing the same game? I've never survived more than a few seconds of charging an SG in a straight line.

What these people who complain about charging it in a straight line and survive don't realize is the person isn't actually charging it in a straight line. They're strafing side to side (sort of a zig-zag motion), which causes the SG to loose its lock and just stop firing.

That's why medics/scouts are never standing still when nail gunning an sg, they zig-zag until they're close enough to circle strafe the thing. It actually takes a degree of skill to accomplish this. But others who don't know about it or can't do it, just think the sg is pure fail because they don't understand the trick involved.

People who charge it in a straight line die very quickly.