Snipers! They don't belong.

[Spliffalot]

Save the sniper class, and FF, BAN SSCUJO AKA KING AKA Justgiveup, known cheat.

[Ricey]

Originally Posted by be_

I read a suggestion somewhere here suggesting that the sniper extend the reload time, charge time or a recoil effect. Sounds pretty good for non-snipers as it gives them more time to run across the map or get cover if the shot doesn't hit.

What about this...

There is only a charged shot or a non-charged shot. If you charge up to anything in-between these two extremes and shoot before the bar is full, the damage dealt will be that of a completely non-charged shot.

Non-charged shot gives radio-tag. Leg shots and head shots don't give any effects.

Charged shot has 3 levels of damage:
- legshot = deals the least amount of damage (still more than a non-charged) and gives slowed movement effect.
- mid section = middle amount of damage, no effect.
- head shot = insta-gib. death no matter what class, armor, or health boost.

Combine all these with an extended charge time.

If this is something that can be worked with, this is only nerfing and I feel there should be something added to the sniper as well. Just can't think of a good idea.

Wait, so a HWGUY and a Solly should both be insta-gibbed? The two heaviest classes? haha, sorry no. But I will agree everything else as a temp fix. Either it's fully charged and does more damage or it's not and does fair damage.

[be_]

Originally Posted by Ricey

Wait, so a HWGUY and a Solly should both be insta-gibbed? The two heaviest classes? haha, sorry no. But I will agree everything else as a temp fix. Either it's fully charged and does more damage or it's not and does fair damage.

Sure. Why not? That's how it was in TFC and I saw no problem. If it's a headshot, give the snipers that gib satisfaction; they earned it. Especially if that's the only time they will get it.

[Ricey]

Originally Posted by be_

Sure. Why not? That's how it was in TFC and I saw no problem. If it's a headshot, give the snipers that gib satisfaction; they earned it. Especially if that's the only time they will get it.

I will say this till it is drilled into everyone's skull. This is FF, not TFC. Yes, the game is BASED off TFC, it is not the same game, but of course influences while carry over. That doesn't mean every single one. I have no problem with classes with lower armour being insta-gibbed,Scouts,Medics, Engys(WHICH IS MY MAIN CLASS), Spys,Pyros as they all move faster than Sollys and HWGuys.

You'll probably throw up into the air, the solly can grenade+rjump across the map, yea leaving him with no health. HWGuy, best he can do is bhop across.

Example:
Map: Openfire
HWGuy is right above the lift, sniper is in the back of the tunnel.
How is it fair to the HWGuy that a sniper can go into the tunnel, fully charged, and fire a shot and insta-gib his ass.
Damage versus distance Sniper will always win, if decent.

Same example can be applied to Aardvark, Schtop,nyx, haste(b4 I am disabling snipers, QQ SNIPERS,same goes for trench),or any map that has a decent distance between two players.

[be_]

Originally Posted by Ricey

I will say this till it is drilled into everyone's skull. This is FF, not TFC. Yes, the game is BASED off TFC, it is not the same game, but of course influences while carry over. That doesn't mean every single one. I have no problem with classes with lower armour being insta-gibbed,Scouts,Medics, Engys(WHICH IS MY MAIN CLASS), Spys,Pyros as they all move faster than Sollys and HWGuys.

You'll probably throw up into the air, the solly can grenade+rjump across the map, yea leaving him with no health. HWGuy, best he can do is bhop across.

Example:
Map: Openfire
HWGuy is right above the lift, sniper is in the back of the tunnel.
How is it fair to the HWGuy that a sniper can go into the tunnel, fully charged, and fire a shot and insta-gib his ass.
Damage versus distance Sniper will always win, if decent.

Same example can be applied to Aardvark, Schtop,nyx, haste(b4 I am disabling snipers, QQ SNIPERS,same goes for trench),or any map that has a decent distance between two players.

I was not saying that's how it was in TFC and so make it like TFC. I was saying that is how it was, and I saw no problem with it. I'm giving an example of when this worked and did not seem to be a bad thing.

I imagine that if any moderately skilled sniper can get a fully charged headshot that does not instantly kill a heavy, he will not have a problem giving him one more non-charged tap anywhere else that will finish him off. So it'd be headshot, and bam one second later, dead anyway. So is that such a big deal?

Same thing happens to me when pyro on Ardvark. Vs. a good sniper, even jump pad or grenade + rocket jump + flame pushing away, and there is still much distance that the slow flame push at the end of the combo still makes for an easy air-shot. I still don't think it's too mis-balanced. Strengths and weakness for each class. Sniper's only advantage is distance.

But since people seem to hate them so much, that was my suggestion of lowering the efficiency of the class while still rewarding the skill of the individual players.

[Eon Seig]

There is no solution to this problem that isn't going to involve Sniper getting massively restricted/removed/nerfed beyond all belief. Sniper is simply too much of a rage-inducing class to be dealt with fairly. There is no middle ground and no compromises will be reached. The class is either hated with a passion or has a huge elitist devotion, and neither of those can be negotiated with.

Maybe we should just throw all caution to the wind and give the rifle a damage falloff over range. Second, halve the power of a fully charged shot to the body while increasing head shot damage by 50%. If you guys don't like getting instagibbed by shots to the foot, let's make it impossible for that to happen.

Sniper's skill aspect is preserved, range advantage is partially maintained but is more limited, weapon power is overall the same but more restricted, and light classes don't die in one hit on a little toe.

Radio tags should not last for half a fakin minute, either. In addition, they should not just be free wallhacks you get for failing to kill your target. They should be more restricted, such as a seperate firing mode of the rifle. The rifle should either deal high damage or tag, not both at the same time, which essentially fucks the guy you hit to the thousandth degree. The tag shot should be weak , like 5 damage. Better yet, merge the legshot with the tag shot so you have a low-damage bullet that cripples and tags. The killing bullet would take time to load into the rifle.

[GenghisTron]

GJ Gwarsbane, you just misrepresented every strong argument that has been used against snipers in this thread, and others. Have fun with that intellectual dishonesty.

(Since I know it'll come up, what I meant by you misrepresenting, is that you basically lied by omission. The entire debate about the sniper class in this thread is many more dimensional than you lead on in your list. You chose to include weaker talking points that could be adressed with nothing more than rhetoric, when in fact, there has been a multitude of points that objectively show the sniper is out of place, or plain overpowered in FF)

[Spliffalot]

i dont think thee is anything wrong with the sniper class as it is, just ban the cheats that exploit it, then people will continue playing as they wont be pwned every 2 seconds, in fact ban all those who exploit FF, specially those who were supposed to help/report bugs who didnt and just use them!

[mervaka]

Spliffalot: i'm not accusing anyone of cheating here. i genuinely do think there is a high level of skill in play here. the game certainly allows for it, and it currently thrives like thrush in a protitute's crotch. high levels of skill are always a good thing, but we need to ensure that opponents still have the means to interact.

[Born_In_Xixax]

lol wtf

[Gwarsbane]

Originally Posted by GenghisTron

GJ Gwarsbane, you just misrepresented every strong argument that has been used against snipers in this thread, and others. Have fun with that intellectual dishonesty.

(Since I know it'll come up, what I meant by you misrepresenting, is that you basically lied by omission. The entire debate about the sniper class in this thread is many more dimensional than you lead on in your list. You chose to include weaker talking points that could be adressed with nothing more than rhetoric, when in fact, there has been a multitude of points that objectively show the sniper is out of place, or plain overpowered in FF)

Guess you didn't see the....

Did I miss any?

So I guess you "misrepresented" that I wasn't telling the truth.

How about next time you just say "you forgot about this, how would you counter it" you'll look less like an jerk.


I've already countered the overpowered argument. The sniper can kill with one shot from a distance. The spy can kill with one stab while cloaked.

Counter to the sniper killing you long distance with one shot is to...

Learn where the sniper is. (look around, see if you see anything)

Learn to trick the sniper. (this might include tossing stuff out)

Learn to ask your team for help. (ask someone to step outside, ask someone to toss a gas grenade out, ask someone who is already outside to go distract the sniper)

Learn to distract the sniper. (put down some pipes, then wait, toss a bag out, when you hear the bullet hit run, or step out quick, then back in and if you heard a bullet hit run back out)

Learn to use items you have on you to get out of the area. (grenade/rocket/pipe jump out of the spawn or area you are in that the sniper is looking at. Toss out a gas grenade run through it. Build a jump pad.

Learn to anticipate when the sniper is going to fire. (it might be a hit scan weapon, but guess what, it does take some reaction time for the sniper to react. Every sniper is different and will have a slightly different reaction time)


Notice a theme there, learning is what will help people counter the sniper. It will help you counter EVERY class. But there will always be people who are damn good when they use a specific class. If you want the sniper class to be remove/nerfed just because someone is damn good at it, then you might as well remove all the classes because there will always be someone who is damn good at a class and who will scare off noobs and/or make it not fun for some.


And the sniper is not out of place, again as far as I know, the sniper has been part of TF games since there have been Team Fortress games. And seeing as how this game is based off of TFC and TFC has a sniper, then that means the sniper is NOT out of place.



So what other "strong" arguments do you think I "lied by omission" about? (btw I consider all these to be silly/weak arguments to remove/nerf the sniper)

[squeek.]

All of those "counters" are not dependent on the player's actions. They are all dependent on the sniper's. They only work if the sniper does something wrong. The player is not necessarily doing anything right; even if he does all of those things perfectly, he can still lose.

Here's something you seemed to have missed: http://forums.fortress-forever.com/s...&postcount=446

[SSCUJO]

Originally Posted by squeek.

All of those "counters" are not dependent on the player's actions. They are all dependent on the sniper's. They only work if the sniper does something wrong. The player is not necessarily doing anything right; even if he does all of those things perfectly, he can still lose.

thats an odd way of putting it, if i was a medic and met exo as soli in a hallway, i would say that the only way i would win is if exo does something wrong. sure i could fight back. it would be as effective as a medic fighting a sniper from the battlements of 2fort, but sure i could fight back... does that mean the solider needs to be looked at? because it dominates a new player?

you have to ask, if you nerf the sniper so that a great sniper vs a noob is a fair fight then what happens when that great sniper meets an exo?

[Bridget]

lol...

[mervaka]

Originally Posted by squeek.

All of those "counters" are not dependent on the player's actions. They are all dependent on the sniper's. They only work if the sniper does something wrong. The player is not necessarily doing anything right; even if he does all of those things perfectly, he can still lose.

Here's something you seemed to have missed: http://forums.fortress-forever.com/s...&postcount=446

i couldn't have phrased that better, but some of you guys just still don't get it. you're like investment bankers and their bonuses.

[SSCUJO]

wait so if a player does everything perfect vs a sniper he can still lose, but that means he also has a chance of winning, right? is there a set list of bullet points to counter each class that if followed will 100% mean a sucessful kill or pass?

if so then i understand and by all means change it so that a player has a 100% chance of getting past a sniper if everything is done right.

[mervaka]

• Learn where the sniper is.
• Learn to trick the sniper.
• Learn to ask your team for help.
• Learn to distract the sniper.
• Learn to use items you have on you to get out of the area.
• Learn to anticipate when the sniper is going to fire.

notice how the arguments gwarsbane lists all involve avoidance. thats not what we're after here. the problem is you cannot actively interact with the sniper, you're running around like an ant under a magnifying glass in the sun.

i'll bring another proposition i made out from devworld into the open here: what if all players' view kicked by say, ~10 degrees when they received damage? shotguns could be fired across the map at snipers, and those players would actively affect the sniper's ability to shoot him. do the trigonometry, and tell me what you think

[SSCUJO]

i think thats a great idea, hell i even like the idea of radio/cripple being a different gun from the high dmg rifle.

i don't like the idea of removing distance (the only thing the sniper has going for it) or removing the class completely.

also the avoidence argument i think is really almost only found on arddvark in which the goal and the sniper are not at the same location, if you think 2fort, the enemy's are no longer avoiding the sniper but rather fighting to get into position to kill the sniper, which is what any class has to do to kill any class anyway.

[xks]

Originally Posted by mervaka

notice how the arguments gwarsbane lists all involve avoidance. thats not what we're after here. the problem is you cannot actively interact with the sniper, you're running around like an ant under a magnifying glass in the sun.

i'll bring another proposition i made out from devworld into the open here: what if all players' view kicked by say, ~10 degrees when they received damage? shotguns could be fired across the map at snipers, and those players would actively affect the sniper's ability to shoot him. do the trigonometry, and tell me what you think

It's already far too easy to occupy/hinder a sniper, the problem is that it takes one person 'out of the game' to do so.

The view kick idea will render the sniper almost completely useless unless you also give him the cloaking abilities of a spy.

[moosh]

Originally Posted by Bridget

lol...