the way for ff to suceed - Page 4

Bridget · 10-10-2010, 02:01 PM

Don't worry, guys. The SG is being thoroughly tested by like 5 people. Rest assured that they will be able to represent everyone.

WiFiDi · 10-10-2010, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHURCHMOUTH

what i like about the sentry... i really like the fact that its really easy to conc around and it makes this game so much easier for people like me who are already ballin at the game to begin with! oh my god how i love easy games ones that take like almost no skill at all to rape face in. i love fortress forever

cummon how can u say that to me it seems like the sentry is maybe trying to be a little more appealing to new players than anything. if anything the competitive community should be the ones bitching about sgs but i really dont think anyone in the scene gives a shit. we dont rely on sentry guns like you do maybe? sentry guns are a big pain in the ass on virtually any capture the flag map if the games being played properly. as a scout im always dying in the flag room if theres a gun up therefor a medic has to kill it. well if the medics killing a gun hes also getting shot at by a hwg and a soldier or a demo or something which makes the gun not totally a dead give away.

when you get thru bitching about the gun come try a pickup game out and see if its as easy as you think noobs

okay, sentry guns are important because if they are strong enough they force you to attack with other classes besides scout and medic making a more team balanced game. this is important. you don't realize it yet but a more powerful sentry makes the game more of a team game. also it makes for tatics to move up the the flag. (teamwork.) which i haven't seen from day one. just people saying there is instead of actually proving it. its just spam with scouts and medics on offense and the rest of d there are 9 classes each has to be balanced to another that's what you've lost in this game. because pro players like guy above me don't want to improve the game just want to drive it into the ground, and call people noobs.

Bridget · 10-10-2010, 05:03 PM

Here's the inconsistency in how things are developed:

Churchmouth claims that pickups demonstrate how efficient Sentry Guns are. However, anyone with a brain knows that Sentry Guns are harder to take down in a competitive or organized environment because they are heavily defended. This says nothing about the gun, which is what we're discussing. It's like if we argue that a piece of paper is easy to burn up if caught on fire (which is true) so someone tries to argue that a piece of paper is not easy to burn up when placed inside of a reinforced fire-proof lockbox. No, the paper would still easily burn if exposed to fire. That fact doesn't change. You just prevent it from burning.

Now, the development team might use this point as justification for the Sentry being a pile of shit. If you have a competent team of excellent players, then they can defend your Sentry Gun from enemies and thus it will last longer than if it takes fire without protection. Oh, but I thought one of the design philosophies of Fortress Forever was that other players on your team should not be a detriment to your performance? In this case, if your team is not up to par, then your abilities as an Engineer are heavily reduced. Out the window goes your design goal. Not just that, but another design goal is that the game is not too team-oriented, because if you end up with a bad team, no matter how hard you try to do things individually, you won't make any progress.

That's why single Scouts can maneuver through an entire defense. That's why a lone Medic can destroy an entire defense. In these cases, an individual is permitted to be powerful enough to do things for himself to avoid the problem of players being a detriment to other players. Why, then, is the Engineer exempt from this rule? Why does the Engineer's potential have to be directly linked to his team's potential when the Scout or Medic can do excellent as individual classes? If you have a bad team, then your SG will get fucking raped. If you have a good team, then it might do some good?

Yeah, makes no fucking sense. Learn how to develop a game correctly, please. Learn how to be consistent in your design goals, not just when it suits you. TL;DR I'm too stupid to understand you bri, so you're a troll.

GenghisTron · 10-10-2010, 05:09 PM

YouTube

CHURCHMOUTH · 10-10-2010, 07:57 PM

you should know that was his first game of FF and my point still stands. the engineer is not the entire defense and never should be.

edit: wifidi, you dont know me. ive done more for this game today than you have in your whole life

double edit: bridget id like to see you maneuver your way thru an entire defense as a scout take the flag and make your way out of the base... everything you say comes straight out of your asshole man you have nothing to base any of what you say on. you sucked at FF that is a fact. you didnt play much FF, thats another fact. How can u sit there and act like you know more about it than i do? ive been playing since day one. i also played tfc since 99 where you been? forums much.. Sentrys work for the most part in a competitive enviornment something you know absolutely nothing about.. why would you want to base the sentry on a public game that has no limits.. you will never ever ever ever ever ever ever make it work in both so how about make it work in a place where its being used how its meant to be used instead of a noob player blocker or whatever u want faggot

triple edit: ban this faggot above me please or ban me

GenghisTron · 10-10-2010, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHURCHMOUTH

triple edit: ban this faggot above me please or ban me

moosh · 10-10-2010, 08:15 PM

I'm with Churchmouth on this one.

GenghisTron · 10-10-2010, 08:26 PM

Bridget · 10-10-2010, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHURCHMOUTH

double edit: bridget id like to see you maneuver your way thru an entire defense as a scout take the flag and make your way out of the base...

S'been done.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHURCHMOUTH

everything you say comes straight out of your asshole man you have nothing to base any of what you say on. you sucked at FF that is a fact.

You're sounding a little mad right now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHURCHMOUTH

you didnt play much FF, thats another fact.

Yeah, all day every day for like two years, not enough though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHURCHMOUTH

How can u sit there and act like you know more about it than i do? ive been playing since day one. i also played tfc since 99 where you been?

Lemme check the care-o-meter- s'broken. Duration doesn't guarantee expertise. I can spend 10 years in college constantly failing versus someone who only spends a year and passes, am I suddenly more knowledgeable because I was there longer? You're dumb.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHURCHMOUTH

forums much.. Sentrys work for the most part in a competitive enviornment something you know absolutely nothing about.. why would you want to base the sentry on a public game that has no limits.. you will never ever ever ever ever ever ever make it work in both so how about make it work in a place where its being used how its meant to be used instead of a noob player blocker or whatever u want faggot

If they only wanted this game to appeal to a niche group of no-life losers like yourself, then why would they waste so much time with a website, forums, advertisements, review requests, a huge wiki, pr work, trying to get it on steamworks, patch previews, etc? That suggests this mod strives to be popular, and that isn't going to happen when they appeal to niche faggots.

chilledsanity · 10-10-2010, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHURCHMOUTH

why would you want to base the sentry on a public game that has no limits.. you will never ever ever ever ever ever ever make it work in both so how about make it work in a place where its being used how its meant to be used instead of a noob player blocker or whatever u want faggot

Wow, that's a real enlightened approach. News flash for you, I played TFC since 99 as well, except I never did clan/league style crap because I always found CTF boring as hell. About 95% of my games were dustbowl, warpath, and avanti. I found objective-based games like that infinitely more fun, and it scaled well with a random assortment of players. It was a blast.

As for it "never ever working", TFC sure made it work for pub AvD. It had a strong sentry gun, strong hwguy, which helped keep the games balanced in AvD. How the fuck did you guys cope with TFC for pickups and league play with such a good defense? If you can answer that, what's different about FF that what worked for TFC won't work here? If you can't answer those questions, that means you're making a logical contradiction and you're full of shit.

I can at least understand that there was a thriving league/pickup community that played TFC for entirely different reasons than I did. If you honestly can't understand a viewpoint other than your own on the topic and think that crap like pickups is all the general public played TFC for and how a lot of gameplay changes have helped alienate a lot of would-be FF players, then I think there's no reasoning with you. You're basically defining yourself as a bigot.

GenghisTron · 10-10-2010, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

Wow, that's a real enlightened approach. News flash for you, I played TFC since 99 as well, except I never did clan/league style crap because I always found CTF boring as hell. About 95% of my games were dustbowl, warpath, and avanti. I found objective-based games like that infinitely more fun, and it scaled well with a random assortment of players. It was a blast.

As for it "never ever working", TFC sure made it work for pub AvD. It had a strong sentry gun, strong hwguy, which helped keep the games balanced in AvD. How the fuck did you guys cope with TFC for pickups and league play with such a good defense? If you can answer that, what's different about FF that what worked for TFC won't work here? If you can't answer those questions, that means you're making a logical contradiction and you're full of shit.

I can at least understand that there was a thriving league/pickup community that played TFC for entirely different reasons than I did. If you honestly can't understand a viewpoint other than your own on the topic and think that crap like pickups is all the general public played TFC for and how a lot of gameplay changes have helped alienate a lot of would-be FF players, then I think there's no reasoning with you. You're basically defining yourself as a bigot.

People like him pretty much don't think there's any other gametype than CTF, and whatever is left over is for 'noobs'. I'm in full agreeance with you that CTF can bore you to tears (I still find it tolerable, but nothing is as epic as a game of evenly-matched AvD, nothing) especially considering the fact that the FF pickup community likes to play the same 5 maps with the same 12 or so people.

The larger FF community (aka pubs and 'noobs) also loves AvD. I haven't played in a couple months, but last time I played, the main active servers were TALOS and zE's servers, and AvD maps were hugely popular/successful. I've always thought that AvD was the natural gameplay mode for TFC/FF, and CTF seemed like a natural secondary game mode. In pubs, most of the noobs just run around and DM each other not even minding the rules of the game, and most of the more skilled players hate AvD because teams usually get stacked (which says nothing about AvD in general) and then they get frustrated because of how unbalanced it becomes. However when parity is achieved, and a game is balanced, everyone has tons of fun. That is really my main gripe with this game, it's focusing on CTF gameplay, and completely (seemingly) forgetting AvD gameplay. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems Valve focused on AvD and AvD-variant gameplay for the more casual crowd, and it seems to be paying dividends.

The irony, in my mind, is that CTF is being focused on, at the detriment to AvD, but if the development approach was more geared towards AvD, that wouldn't necessarily mean that it would be at the detriment to CTF gameplay, since CTF gameplay is more of a micro aspect of the game than a macro game, only utilizing a minority of the classes and mechanics of the game for a small segment of the game's capabilities.

/rant

inb4 uhaventbeenplayingsince1989, uranoob, isuckalotodick, etc.

CHURCHMOUTH · 10-10-2010, 10:12 PM

ff doesnt cater to CTF look at the last patch... and chilled sanity why are you attacking me yo earlier i said make the game more like TFC and you attacked me then too take a hike. people thrive on competition so thats why i think thats the correct way to play the game. if you dont think the game is meant to be played competitively then where are you going from random pubs? nowhere you keep playing pubs all day where nothing ever is accomplished (wins loses ties leagues activity more players wanting in on the action) people want to compete duhh

it doesnt matter what i say im wrong everytime everyone has their own views deal with it.. not worth my time

CHURCHMOUTH · 10-10-2010, 10:16 PM

yeah forgot i was talking to you anyway

GenghisTron · 10-10-2010, 10:20 PM

Sure it caters to CTF. The game is so much faster than TFC and the SG is so much crappier than in TFC, that it's impossible to defend. Most of the speed values in this game are 5% more than they were in TFC, which to me, shows a fallacy in game design. Simply changing values and percentages doesn't 'balance' a game, because there are so many factors involved. Making classes move 5% faster makes it harder for the mainline of defense (Soldiers) have that much of a harder time defending a CP from a pipejumping demoman or jump-padding scout, because simply upping rocket speed 5% or whatever it is now does not compensate for the miliseconds of reaction time that are lost from making fast classes 5% faster.

FF requires better demomen than it did in TFC, it requires more SG's to compensate for FF's terrible SG/pushback, and jumppads and air speed just completely wreck the diminished defenses of the defenders.

Look at it this way: Offense got a bunch of shiny new toys that made them excell in offense (In AvD), and defense basically got nothing, and actually got diminished in some key places.

CHURCHMOUTH · 10-10-2010, 10:24 PM

there you go again back up your shit bro.. you think defense is harder in FF. FF's soldier and demoman are MILES AND MILES AND MILES EASIER than they are in tfc you are so not intelligent in the ff department.

id go back to trolling if i were you

Bridget · 10-10-2010, 10:24 PM

I looked at the last patch. All the map changes were to CTF maps. The new map was a CTF. What are you getting at?

Attack and Defend and Invade and Defend are popular because there are actual objectives hard-coded into the maps. They're also popular because you can actually reach the point of victory; You can willingly progress to it. What can you do with capture the flag? You have to keep capturing the flag until the timelimit runs out. There's no 'capture limit' where you automatically win, so what's the fucking point? It's exhausting. I'd rather deathmatch, and so would everyone else.

We can blame the development team for this. They should have made CTF for the public environment a little more objective oriented with timelimits and capture limits so people could actually work toward their victory instead of having to wait around death-matching until it comes in the form of a ten-second scoreboard.

GenghisTron · 10-10-2010, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHURCHMOUTH

there you go again back up your shit bro.. you think defense is harder in FF. FF's soldier and demoman are MILES AND MILES AND MILES EASIER than they are in tfc you are so not intelligent in the ff department.

id go back to trolling if i were you

lololololol

I never said soldier and demomen were harder, I said that offense is so much stronger than it was in TFC, that it's impossible to compensate. Reading comprehension is your friend. And to anybody who has played more than a single round of AvD, public or competitive (I played a couple of the Euro AvD pickups a while back, didn't see you there, or the hundreds of pub AvD games in Talos) that offense is infinitesimally easier than it was in TFC. The rounds are so much shorter, offense pushes are much larger and much easier, and in general offense completely facerolls now.

But yea, like I said, reading comprehension, get some. If anyone's trolling, it's you.

(Moosh, this is your opportunity, hurry up and rush in and brown-nose, the window is closing as we speak!)

**Ricey** · 10-10-2010, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bridget

Yeah, makes no fucking sense. Learn how to develop a game correctly, please. Learn how to be consistent in your design goals, not just when it suits you.

Coming from the person who can't program.

Quote:

I looked at the last patch. All the map changes were to CTF maps. The new map was a CTF. What are you getting at?

And? Maybe if you played the beta you'd realize the maps most played are AvD.

I don't remember the last time we had a CTF focused Beta.

Bridget, get the dick out of your ass.

GT, get Bridget's dick out of your ass.

Exo, learn to type.

and for the 100th time, the devs know the SG is GIMPED as fuck.

Bridget · 10-10-2010, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricey

Coming from the person who can't program.

I know how to program. Nice try though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricey

I don't remember the last time we had a CTF focused Beta.

Annnnnd?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricey

Bridget, get the dick out of your ass.

ヽ(´ー｀)ﾉ I ain't even mad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricey

and for the 100th time, the devs know the SG is GIMPED as fuck.

Knowing something is wrong isn't doing something about it.

GenghisTron · 10-10-2010, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricey

GT, get Bridget's dick out of your ass.

People only think I ride Bridget's dick because I'm not on the bandwagon of 'OH BRIDGET IS A FUCKING FAGGOT BECUZ HE MAKES LONG POSTS I CANT BE BOTHERED TO READ DAT CUZ I AM SUCH A COOL MOTHERFUCKER I SIT AND SPEND 6 HOURS AT A TIME GETTING ONE PICKUP TO FILL'.

Bridget's got intellectual honesty, and the balls to say what he thinks, something most people are unable to do. Everyone has things about this game they dislike, but I see very few people other than Bridget or like chilledsanity who will analyze what they see wrong with the game, and work towards a solution (Multi-page, drawn out discussions, mind you, not some turd of a suggestion). Fuck, I don't even do that, I'm too lazy cuz I'm not as optimistic as they are. If you disagree with what he says, that's great, but don't knock someone for doing and suggesting what they feel is best for a game they care about. DAT BANDWAGON.

The reason why Bridget comes off as a troll, or has troll-like posts, is because it's the logical conclusion when you get attacked with ad hom's from idiots who can't make a logical argument against his own. You can't reason with idiots, which is why emoticons are used. It's the same reason why my posts from just a few hours ago were 'troll' posts, you just can't level with stupidity, especially when there's nothing substantive being said.

So how 'bout you get off my dick jewboy and go work on vidars.

10-10-2010, 07:57 PM	#65
CHURCHMOUTH crystaLcity D&A Member Beta Tester Join Date: May 2009 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Class/Position: Soldier D Gametype: Capture the Flag Affiliations: Goodfellas Posts Rated Helpful 7 Times	you should know that was his first game of FF and my point still stands. the engineer is not the entire defense and never should be. edit: wifidi, you dont know me. ive done more for this game today than you have in your whole life double edit: bridget id like to see you maneuver your way thru an entire defense as a scout take the flag and make your way out of the base... everything you say comes straight out of your asshole man you have nothing to base any of what you say on. you sucked at FF that is a fact. you didnt play much FF, thats another fact. How can u sit there and act like you know more about it than i do? ive been playing since day one. i also played tfc since 99 where you been? forums much.. Sentrys work for the most part in a competitive enviornment something you know absolutely nothing about.. why would you want to base the sentry on a public game that has no limits.. you will never ever ever ever ever ever ever make it work in both so how about make it work in a place where its being used how its meant to be used instead of a noob player blocker or whatever u want faggot triple edit: ban this faggot above me please or ban me __________________ 83745 L0LZ ff_nyx_b2 ff_schrape_b3 ff_security_b1 ff_baked_b2 ff_reloaded_b1 ff_mulch_dm_b2 ff_oppose_b1 Last edited by CHURCHMOUTH; 10-10-2010 at 08:08 PM.

10-10-2010, 08:26 PM	#68
GenghisTron AKA LittleAndroidMan D&A Member Beta Tester Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Dystopia Class/Position: Demo/Medic Gametype: CTF Affiliations: [TALOS] [SR] Posts Rated Helpful 11 Times	__________________ The Catacombs Steam Last.fm

10-10-2010, 10:12 PM	#72
CHURCHMOUTH crystaLcity D&A Member Beta Tester Join Date: May 2009 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Class/Position: Soldier D Gametype: Capture the Flag Affiliations: Goodfellas Posts Rated Helpful 7 Times	ff doesnt cater to CTF look at the last patch... and chilled sanity why are you attacking me yo earlier i said make the game more like TFC and you attacked me then too take a hike. people thrive on competition so thats why i think thats the correct way to play the game. if you dont think the game is meant to be played competitively then where are you going from random pubs? nowhere you keep playing pubs all day where nothing ever is accomplished (wins loses ties leagues activity more players wanting in on the action) people want to compete duhh it doesnt matter what i say im wrong everytime everyone has their own views deal with it.. not worth my time __________________ 83745 L0LZ ff_nyx_b2 ff_schrape_b3 ff_security_b1 ff_baked_b2 ff_reloaded_b1 ff_mulch_dm_b2 ff_oppose_b1 Last edited by CHURCHMOUTH; 10-10-2010 at 10:19 PM.

10-10-2010, 10:16 PM	#73
CHURCHMOUTH crystaLcity D&A Member Beta Tester Join Date: May 2009 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Class/Position: Soldier D Gametype: Capture the Flag Affiliations: Goodfellas Posts Rated Helpful 7 Times	yeah forgot i was talking to you anyway __________________ 83745 L0LZ ff_nyx_b2 ff_schrape_b3 ff_security_b1 ff_baked_b2 ff_reloaded_b1 ff_mulch_dm_b2 ff_oppose_b1 Last edited by CHURCHMOUTH; 10-10-2010 at 10:16 PM.

10-10-2010, 10:20 PM	#74
GenghisTron AKA LittleAndroidMan D&A Member Beta Tester Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Dystopia Class/Position: Demo/Medic Gametype: CTF Affiliations: [TALOS] [SR] Posts Rated Helpful 11 Times	Sure it caters to CTF. The game is so much faster than TFC and the SG is so much crappier than in TFC, that it's impossible to defend. Most of the speed values in this game are 5% more than they were in TFC, which to me, shows a fallacy in game design. Simply changing values and percentages doesn't 'balance' a game, because there are so many factors involved. Making classes move 5% faster makes it harder for the mainline of defense (Soldiers) have that much of a harder time defending a CP from a pipejumping demoman or jump-padding scout, because simply upping rocket speed 5% or whatever it is now does not compensate for the miliseconds of reaction time that are lost from making fast classes 5% faster. FF requires better demomen than it did in TFC, it requires more SG's to compensate for FF's terrible SG/pushback, and jumppads and air speed just completely wreck the diminished defenses of the defenders. Look at it this way: Offense got a bunch of shiny new toys that made them excell in offense (In AvD), and defense basically got nothing, and actually got diminished in some key places. __________________ The Catacombs Steam Last.fm

10-10-2010, 02:01 PM	#61
Bridget Banned Join Date: Sep 2008 Class/Position: Soldier Gametype: AVD Affiliations: TALOS Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times	Don't worry, guys. The SG is being thoroughly tested by like 5 people. Rest assured that they will be able to represent everyone.

10-10-2010, 05:03 PM	#63
Bridget Banned Join Date: Sep 2008 Class/Position: Soldier Gametype: AVD Affiliations: TALOS Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times	Here's the inconsistency in how things are developed: Churchmouth claims that pickups demonstrate how efficient Sentry Guns are. However, anyone with a brain knows that Sentry Guns are harder to take down in a competitive or organized environment because they are heavily defended. This says nothing about the gun, which is what we're discussing. It's like if we argue that a piece of paper is easy to burn up if caught on fire (which is true) so someone tries to argue that a piece of paper is not easy to burn up when placed inside of a reinforced fire-proof lockbox. No, the paper would still easily burn if exposed to fire. That fact doesn't change. You just prevent it from burning. Now, the development team might use this point as justification for the Sentry being a pile of shit. If you have a competent team of excellent players, then they can defend your Sentry Gun from enemies and thus it will last longer than if it takes fire without protection. Oh, but I thought one of the design philosophies of Fortress Forever was that other players on your team should not be a detriment to your performance? In this case, if your team is not up to par, then your abilities as an Engineer are heavily reduced. Out the window goes your design goal. Not just that, but another design goal is that the game is not too team-oriented, because if you end up with a bad team, no matter how hard you try to do things individually, you won't make any progress. That's why single Scouts can maneuver through an entire defense. That's why a lone Medic can destroy an entire defense. In these cases, an individual is permitted to be powerful enough to do things for himself to avoid the problem of players being a detriment to other players. Why, then, is the Engineer exempt from this rule? Why does the Engineer's potential have to be directly linked to his team's potential when the Scout or Medic can do excellent as individual classes? If you have a bad team, then your SG will get fucking raped. If you have a good team, then it might do some good? Yeah, makes no fucking sense. Learn how to develop a game correctly, please. Learn how to be consistent in your design goals, not just when it suits you. TL;DR I'm too stupid to understand you bri, so you're a troll.

10-10-2010, 08:15 PM	#67
moosh WhenNailGrenWillOut? Beta Tester Join Date: May 2009 Gametype: mp_prematch Affiliations: [:)] - Frag Happy, babe\| Posts Rated Helpful 29 Times	I'm with Churchmouth on this one.

10-10-2010, 10:24 PM	#75
CHURCHMOUTH crystaLcity D&A Member Beta Tester Join Date: May 2009 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Class/Position: Soldier D Gametype: Capture the Flag Affiliations: Goodfellas Posts Rated Helpful 7 Times	there you go again back up your shit bro.. you think defense is harder in FF. FF's soldier and demoman are MILES AND MILES AND MILES EASIER than they are in tfc you are so not intelligent in the ff department. id go back to trolling if i were you __________________ 83745 L0LZ ff_nyx_b2 ff_schrape_b3 ff_security_b1 ff_baked_b2 ff_reloaded_b1 ff_mulch_dm_b2 ff_oppose_b1 Last edited by CHURCHMOUTH; 10-10-2010 at 10:25 PM.

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