The Logical Pyro Fix.

[Credge]

Originally Posted by cjeshjoir™

I wish I could write on your face with a sharpie while you're asleep. Wake up to find "SCRIM NOT PUB" written across your eyelids.

Sigh.

Before I start, let me just tell you that you completely missed the point and began to post with blinders. Which, as I stated, is why two sides are saying the exact same thing without realizing it.

But, you know, I'm sure you consider me a clanner because I play pickups more than I pub .

It's like the clanners have never played a pub before... Not all games go the same way, and FF isn't designed solely for competitive play. Yes, I've seen games with the commonfolk where no flags are capped, I've seen one-sided games with one stacked team putting the other to shame... I've also seen balanced and active objective-based gameplay where everyone plays how they want and they all enjoy themselves. People who want to cap do just that, and people who don't... don't.

I don't really see what this has to do with what I said. What I said is fact. As the game begins to revolve more and more around following the objectives (resulting in less and less DM), the pyro loses most of his usefulness.

There's really no way you can take that as anything other than what it is at face value. If you disagree then I beg you to play pyro in any competitive environment where the objectives >matter<.

Because, all you've really said is "PYRO IS FINE IN PUB PLAY" which... I said he was. He's >not< fine in competitive play.

Diversity is a bad thing? Again, FF isn't designed solely for competitive play.

Eh, what? If you strawman me again I'll stop replying to you. Take your blinders off broseph, you're typing nonsense.

Maybe not in a 5v5 (or 6v6 or whatever is played) scrim, but pubs get larger. No class is restricted from carrying the flag, but some are better suited for it. No class is restricted from dwelling in the base, again, some are better suited for it.

No, it's not suited for competitive play in any format. 6v6, 7v7, 20v20, he just has no role. Period. He'd only ever be played regularly in a 9v9 highlander format and ONLY because you're required to have one of every class. Oddly, only sniper would be played there as well.

Please, at the end of this post I'll spell it out for you simply, but you're going to have to take your blinders off first.

These are dirty, evil, restrictive words. I pity the fool who believes this is the answer.

No, they're not.

A specialized pyro does not change how he is played in pub play. At all. Period. He retains everything he has, but he actually FITS in to a role so he can be used in a game mode.

Want to talk about restrictive? How about we talk about selfish for a moment.

Personal Note: I absolutely adore the Pyro. I am so glad he is a viable option in FF, and his current configuration seems flawlessly balanced to me. I feel an extreme sense of distress when hearing conversation of changing his lovely playstyle. I love you all, and I mean you no harm.

He's not viable in competitive FF, which makes your statement absolutely silly. It's like suggesting that the sniper is viable in FF because he's good on Aardvark. No, he's not. He's not viable.

Look, I love the pyro. The only reason I don't play him as much as I can is because he's a detriment to both O and D in competitive play. It has everything to do with his lack of specialization. Also, the fact that his flames cause more damage to allies than enemies. Note though that even if the flames caused no friendly fire damage he would still be a detriment to his team, just like the sniper, because the role he plays can be played by classes that can perform the exact same role but better. On both O and D.

Currently, an offensive pyros role is to break up the defense. He's a line breaker. His main objective is to kill the soldier. He does a decent job at this, however, the collateral damage he causes is actually far greater than a demoman. Even further, the demoman brings more things to the offensive table than just breaking the front line D. The demoman is an amazing sentry gun killer as well, something the pyro is incredibly bad at. The demoman can also get across the map just as fast as a concing medic can, something the pyro can not do.

So, why would anyone ever pick him for offense in a competitive environment? Flavor? No, you get better flavor from the spy who can also perform the same role that the pyro does. Teams just don't pick the pyro for O.

I've played O pyro, I know exactly how good it can be. It's just annoying and it's why Gator banned it from his server (I.E. me picking it).

The pyro on D is even worse. Because of his weaponry the role he is forced to play is that of the soldier. The problem is that the soldier has better medium range weaponry than the pyro, has more armor (also, maybe a higher armor class, it's been a while since I've cared enough about armor class to add it in to discussions), and is faster to react do to his primary weapons accuracy (rocket launcher is far more accurate than the IC).

Even further, the pyros close range weapon is a detriment to chasing enemies as it slows down with BHopping. To add to this, all of the pyros skills can cause burn damage to his allies, and a defense tends to do a lot of friendly fire.

The reality is that the pyro does not fill any role that defense needs and there are defensive classes that perform the pyros offensive roles better than what he can.

To summarize everything I've said:

The Pyro, like the sniper, is a redundancy in any competitive format and is overshadowed by more competent classes. He is, however, effective in public play because the Pyro is a very successful DM class. The Pyro can be changed to fill a specific role so he can actually be used in competitive play without actually changing his effectiveness, or how he plays, in pubs that dramatically (read: At all).

What your response has been to this:

YOU'RE A SNOBBY COMPETITIVE PLAYER AND YOU'RE JUST THINKING OF YOURSELF!

[Credge]

Originally Posted by reaper18

Napalm should be more like the conc, except instead of a concussion, its pushing out fire. Could also be used in conjunction with flamethrower for moving across larger distances faster?

That's an option. It could be used in conjunction with the burst damage instead of area denial that would make him an offensive class.

Alternatively his current grenade could be made to actually be useful at denying an area. Some things that could change this would be better hit detection on the flames (or however that works), a spread pattern that covers a large area that can't be BHopped over, and damage that matters when passing through it.

Either of these things would make the pyro a more specialized class and would not change anything about how he is played in pubs.

[cjeshjoir™]

Originally Posted by Credge

BIG TEXT CITING REASONS WHY A PYRO ISNT GOOD FOR COMPETITIVE PLAY. REDUNDANT LISTS STATING WHY PYRO ISNT GOOD FOR COMPETITIVE PLAY.

I'm going to cap the next dude who makes suggestions to change Pyro to be better for competitive play. Write a goddamn plugin for it, and leave the rest of us alone.


IMPORTANT PART: I think Stryder put it best, in one of his THC-filled rhetoric fits, "You know, I joined a server one day, and spectated it. I was watching these guys play, and I realized they were doing a scrim, but you know what? They were still playing Fortress Forever. It was, like, the same thing they'd been doing..."

P.S.: Don't use the Pyro in a match, problem solved.

[Hammock]

Originally Posted by reaper18

Napalm should be more like the conc, except instead of a concussion, its pushing out fire. Could also be used in conjunction with flamethrower for moving across larger distances faster?

Ya I like this idea too, make him more viable for offense.

I honestly don't think the pyro is that good on D even for pubs. I pub way more than I play competitively, and really the only reason pyro's make kills on defense is because there's 10 other enemies, and you always end up just running into them, no pyro ever holds a position. He's always just running around aimlessly.

You stick a pyro in a set position in a pub and see how well he defends.

IMO the pyro is not that great on D, and sucks on O, in pubs and competitively.

The only thing he's good at is DMing, and that's mainly in the yard.

And you want to talk about balance?

Lets look at how the classes are devided

You got 3 classes, designed for offense (scout, medic, spy)
You got 5 classes, designed for defense (HW, Engy, Solly, Demo, Pyro)
Then there's the sniper.

The pyro class fits loosely into defense, because he doesn't do it very well, so right now you could say just 4 confirmed defensive classes.

So why not make the pyro designed for Offense, to create the split of 4 O, and 4 D classes.

Now it's not set in stone that you have to play O with an offensive class, or D with a defensive class. But every class should have a use (even the sniper some day hopefully)

But why have 3 O, and 5 D, when it could be 4 O, and 4 D

@credge

You're wasting your time with this guy. This guy is one of the most obnoxious racist players you'd ever meet in game, and he took a grand total of 30 seconds to be muted.

He has no idea who he's talking to, and just makes wild accusations. Considering almost none of my suggestions are/were ever made with competitive play in mind. Even when I was on beta, all my comments were made against competitive play arguements.

So cjeshjoir 90% of my FF time is spent pubbing, you don't exactly have a right to accuse any of your "competitive play" bs to me.

Please, at the end of this post I'll spell it out for you simply, but you're going to have to take your blinders off first.

^ This

[MonoXideAtWork]

Originally Posted by Credge

The demoman is an amazing sentry gun killer as well, something the pyro is incredibly bad at

Not true. The pyro can do burst as well as damage over time, effectively draining the engineer of his cells or killing the sg, or both.

The demoman provides only burst damage, and is required to kill the engineer before, or during the attack on the sg.

[GenghisTron]

Originally Posted by cjeshjoir™

I wish I could write on your face with a sharpie while you're asleep. Wake up to find "SCRIM NOT PUB" written across your eyelids.



It's like the clanners have never played a pub before... Not all games go the same way, and FF isn't designed solely for competitive play. Yes, I've seen games with the commonfolk where no flags are capped, I've seen one-sided games with one stacked team putting the other to shame... I've also seen balanced and active objective-based gameplay where everyone plays how they want and they all enjoy themselves. People who want to cap do just that, and people who don't... don't.



Diversity is a bad thing? Again, FF isn't designed solely for competitive play.



Maybe not in a 5v5 (or 6v6 or whatever is played) scrim, but pubs get larger. No class is restricted from carrying the flag, but some are better suited for it. No class is restricted from dwelling in the base, again, some are better suited for it.



These are dirty, evil, restrictive words. I pity the fool who believes this is the answer.

Personal Note: I absolutely adore the Pyro. I am so glad he is a viable option in FF, and his current configuration seems flawlessly balanced to me. I feel an extreme sense of distress when hearing conversation of changing his lovely playstyle. I love you all, and I mean you no harm.

trollface.jpg

[Playa_FF]

How about taking normal grenades from pyro's and giving them 2 conc's... make them purely a Offensive class... this would also allow for fun pub gaming, and FUN offensive class for pick ups. Let them keep the napalm.
Dont flame me just say sounds good or no

[cjeshjoir™]

Originally Posted by Playa_FF

How about taking normal grenades from pyro's and giving them 2 conc's... make them purely a Offensive class... this would also allow for fun pub gaming, and FUN offensive class for pick ups. Let them keep the napalm.
Dont flame me just say sounds good or no

+1

I like this, with a reduction in the pyros weapon damage and burn damage.

[Raynian]

-1

I hate everybody who suggests making classes more offense by "giving them concs".

[MonoXideAtWork]

give the pyro the fabled vert nade?

[GenghisTron]

lower their armor, take out napalm, and give them an ssg

[Agent Buckshot Moose]

Concs and shotguns fix everything, apparently.

[Dr.Satan]

Originally Posted by Agent Buckshot Moose

Concs and shotguns fix everything, apparently.

don't forget to bring back the teleporter and caltrops!

[zE]

It´s basicly easy to own any newbie, but if u have a newbie as pyro not so easy : P but tbh im ok with it, because new guys like that class prolly because its the class where they die less and requires less skill and aim : )

[theqwert125]

My personal take on how to fix the Pyro is to do two things:

1. Replace BOTH his frag AND napalm with a single new type of nade:
   • It should have LESS damage than a frag, but cause a burn level with the explosion.
   • The pyro should start with 3, and have a max of 6, WITH NO OTHER NADES.
   • These should be available as frags, not special nades, from nade bags, allowing fire 3 on maps that restrict them.
2. Change fundamentally how flame levels work:
   • Either remove or leave the DOT at fire level 1 damage for ALL fire levels.
   • Increase the damage of ALL of the Pyro's fire-starting weapons as the burn level increases.
   • Fire 3 with a flamethrower should be around what it is now, possibly higher, in terms of dps, but this will stop the instant the flamethrower is removed.
   • Because of how basic Fire 2 is to playing the Pyro, I am not against lowering the flamethrower damage in fire level 1 situations, so long as the damage from Fire 2 is similar to as it is now.

This handily fixes the napalm spam problem and the get-touched-once-and-die-5-minutes-later problem, as much as I like being able to count to 6 and get a kill every time a scout passes me.

The only real issue is that the radius of the IC and flamethrower might have to be tweaked to allow the Pyro to apply damage while maneuvering, while preventing absurd situations. This also changes the dynamics of Pyro's and Sentries, not sure if more frag like nades would offset the possible damage from the napalm on SG's.