The Logical Pyro Fix.

[eomoyaff]

After playing around with the pyro for a bit, I still believe they need a lot of work. It's too easy to play the class, and can put out any other class quicker then most other classes. So I'm going to drop a few ideas here so maybe I could get some opinions.

Lets talk about fire. Say you were to set something on fire, and of course it'd casually burn. Now, light something else on fire, and throw it into the original fire. Does the fire burn better? Burn more? Or does it just casually burn as if the object thrown into the fire was never really existent in the first place?

Ok now lets take that same casual fire, and then apply a flame thrower on it. It would in fact increase the temperate slightly, but would have more effect on the fire, causing it to spread over a wider range.

So in conclusion, if a lvl 1 burn is applied by the I.C., when using the flame thrower, it should NOT automatically change to level 2 and STAY at level 2 with just a TOUCH from a Flame Thrower. When you are at lvl 1 burn, the only way to get to lvl 2 burn should be if a flame was constantly applied ON TOP of what was already applied from the Cannon. The moment the Flame Thrower stops hitting the object, it should go back to lvl 1.

And by doing that, you could lower the damage of the flame thrower and the impact damage of the I.C. but cause the Flaming Mirv to immediately apply a lvl 3 burn for a short period of time.

By doing this I believe it would give it a skill factor far greater then what it was before. In other wards, it would take more skill to learn the class, but would be more rewarding to master then most other classes.

Feedback Welcome.

~Moya

[Desyphur]

What would be the point of flame stacking if the napalm immediately brings it to level 3? You could simply keep it there with the flamer, right?

[eomoyaff]

Fire doesn't stack unless another entity of higher temperature is applied consistently. For this reason, I believe any weapon used by the pyro should deal more damage depending on heat differences.

[Credge]

The problem with the pyro is that he's designed to be used against slower moving classes (sustained damage instead of burst, counter-intuitive special movement system). Pub environments generally don't have scouts and medics, so the pyro dominates in pubs.

In competitive player (pickups, league, etc.), the pyro is rarely used as he isn't that good at taking out fast moving classes. The reason is because he does sustained damage instead of burst.

The secondary grenade idea doesn't really work. It's ok in CTF but in AVD and other modes where secondary grenades aren't allowed or are very rare... it's just not a good idea. (Edit here: His current stack system doesn't work in AVD either.)

A better idea would be to make him an offensive class instead of a jack of all trades.

[eomoyaff]

But it's not about where the pyro would be good. It's strictly about the classes skill. Instead of walking around flaming people and getting the easy kill, it would at least apply more practice to use a pyro if you made the changes above. It would take more skill to use one in that manner.

As far as the stacking goes, it still doesn't make sense. You don't find it a little strange that all you'd have to do is touch (As in one poof of fire) the enemy with the flame thrower to see him advance to lvl 2 flame upon hitting him with an IC, and then watch is sustain at lvl 2, doing THAT much damage for THAT long of time?

And lastly, if a someone is skilled enough with a pyro, they can inflict as much as the soldier to ANY class.

[cjeshjoir™]

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

So in conclusion...

Doesn't seem like this game is meant to emulate the actual dynamics of fire. Also, being required to stand/move right next to someone as you attack them does not seem conducive to continued life function (unless you're attacking a HWG because their fat makes them burn hotter, in which case your original argument makes sense.) .

[yfni]

I think the pyro isn't liked because of preconception based on tfc.

not every FF pyro is good...I wish I could get away with playing it in pickups/matches. So I can actually test it properly.

but you people are cry babies :/

not like hwguy is a skilled class either....

[eomoyaff]

Originally Posted by yfni

but you people are cry babies :/

^--- That doesn't make any sense...

not like hwguy is a skilled class either....

Playing the HWG in Pickups does take skill. I know that GenghisTron's Conc Aim with an HW is excellent. That takes a lot of practice and perception.

As far as Pub goes, there's usually 2 HWG's on the same side, spamming the yard or defending flag rediculously.

[Raynian]

Originally Posted by yfni

I think the pyro isn't liked because of preconception based on tfc.

Largely this for me. The pyro class just...kills people in FF. Sure, it sucked DPS-wise in TFC, but lighting someone on fire and watching them run around firing in random directions was satisfying. Fire obscuring view = awesome. Made the pyro an interesting support class.

On a different note - Pyro assist points, like the radiotag assists? 25/50/75 points, depending on the level of the burn.

[Circuitous]

Actually I sort of like the idea of changing how fire stacks, but without the damage reduction.

Right now, if a Pyro catches a lighter class (Engy, Medic, Scout) with an IC and manages to tap them with the flamethrower, they're dead. Not immediately, but within a few seconds. If it went back to level 1 tick damage, they might actually survive the encounter, which WOULD make Pyros less useful against lighter classes than heavy classes.

Similarly, because of a Pyros speed and maneuverability, they can dance around heavier classes and keep the flamethrower on them long enough to do some serious damage, and then get out and let tick damage take over when things get too rough. Ideally they'd be priming a napalm during the dance of death and drop it before they run away.*

They should be effective as an ambush and run class. This is how lighter fighters take out heavier fighters.

* Actually this lends some strength to the "make napalms a burst instead of AoE" argument. Increase the Pyro's maneuverability, decrease his spam/lucky kill potential, and make his focus on ambush-and-get-away tactics more apparent. If it produced a fireball similar in size to the conc effect with a light push, it would be much more effective for his role. AoE = Defense, Burst = Offense. It's true for pretty much every other class, isn't it? Nails, AoE. MIRV, AoE. Caltrops were AoE, and they're gone now. EMPs are Burst, but gosh they see a lot of use on offense don't they?

[BOSTWIX]

^ That shit makes sense... FREAL.

+1 for moya and circ.

[Credge]

Originally Posted by Circuitous

They should be effective as an ambush and run class. This is how lighter fighters take out heavier fighters.

This.

* Actually this lends some strength to the "make napalms a burst instead of AoE" argument. Increase the Pyro's maneuverability, decrease his spam/lucky kill potential, and make his focus on ambush-and-get-away tactics more apparent. If it produced a fireball similar in size to the conc effect with a light push, it would be much more effective for his role. AoE = Defense, Burst = Offense. It's true for pretty much every other class, isn't it? Nails, AoE. MIRV, AoE. Caltrops were AoE, and they're gone now. EMPs are Burst, but gosh they see a lot of use on offense don't they?

And this.

AOE grenades are designed for defense. It's the fact that they deny area for a period that makes them that way. Conversely, burst damage is what an offense uses because they need to quickly take out an enemy.

The pyro has AOE right now but it sucks. Really bad. You have to use it like a burst but holy dick it's bad that way.

[Elmo]

Originally Posted by Circuitous

make napalms a burst instead of AoE" argument. Increase the Pyro's maneuverability, decrease his spam/lucky kill potential

qft

[cjeshjoir™]

Originally Posted by Elmo

qft

I can't remember a time when my kills as pyro have been the result of luck. Pyro's have to hump their targets for the kill (HWG dance-o-death), and it doesn't come quick (exception is Scout, and they can just run away). IC doesn't go straight, minimizing fire-and-forget potential on ranged targets. Shotgun isn't going to kill anything. Napalm isn't crazy deadly, and they don't get OVER 9000 of them.

Bottom line is you have to invite the Pyro get close to you if you want to die.

[eomoyaff]

Originally Posted by cjeshjoir™

I can't remember a time when my kills as pyro have been the result of luck. Pyro's have to hump their targets for the kill (HWG dance-o-death), and it doesn't come quick (exception is Scout, and they can just run away). IC doesn't go straight, minimizing fire-and-forget potential on ranged targets. Shotgun isn't going to kill anything. Napalm isn't crazy deadly, and they don't get OVER 9000 of them.

Bottom line is you have to invite the Pyro get close to you if you want to die.

I can argue with this because once any class is hit with the IC they slow down to run speed in which a pyro can easily catch, by either bhopping or using the flame thrower which is quicker then a scouts bhop at max potential if combined with a reverse bhop. That may be the only thing that applies skill towards the pyro class, but they can definitely chase down their targets. As far as kills that don't come quick, I'm sure as a pyro you can kill a lot of the heavier classes quicker and more easily then a lot of other classes WHILE easily avoiding death.

[cjeshjoir™]

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

I can argue with this because once any class is hit with the IC they slow down to run speed...

Do they? Is it coded in that being on fire slows you down?

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

As far as kills that don't come quick, I'm sure as a pyro you can kill a lot of the heavier classes quicker and more easily then a lot of other classes WHILE easily avoiding death.

Right, but they have to go all out (have to land and IC, FT, and napalm for burn stack). You still have to stand next to whoever you're burning in order to do max damage, which leaves you vulnerable...

[Gwarsbane]

As some people here know, I play pyro.

Getting a level 3 burn is not as easy as people think, though getting a level 2 is.


If course a scout is gonna roast in a second if he gets anywhere near a pyro, hes wearing a tshirt for protection!!! A scout should run away as fast as he can if he sees a pyro or knows a pyro is waiting for him.

Most other classes can be a challenge to kill IF there is someone behind that class that knows how to use it. And even then if the person behind the pyro knows how to play right it can still be a fight to the death. Anyone else though that don't know the class they are playing can and will be roasted.



As a pyro player this is what I could live with for changes to the pyro...

Slow him to somewhere between the speed of a heavy and a soldier. After all hes wearing a big heavy fire resistant suit and a big tank of fuel.

Make the stream of fire a little slimmer. Keep it the same length and does the same damage.

Make it take a second or two for the stream of fire to catch someone on fire. Most things take a second or two to catch so I could live with that and it would give the scout a little time to get away. But it still should do damage if the flame touches them.

The IC and pyro grenades are just fine as is.

[Hammock]

I like the idea of the burst napalm.

That's one reason (of the seemingly infinite number of) he's not played in pickups or league matches. Since his napalm lingers, and we play with Friendly fire on, nobody likes running into their own team's flames, especially the scouts.

It'd be cool if the napalm was a burst but did almost 0 damage (maybe some damage, but very low), and the napalm was then used primarily as the device to get the enemy to level 3 burn (Or more simply +1 level burn). This is pretty much all it's used for anyways, I never see pyros trying to use napalm for pure damage (other than just spamming choke points in pubs).

Then all you'd need to do is figure out some way a pyro can recharge his napalm on the fly(sorta like what the engy does with his rally gun). This would also fix the problem with him on OvD maps where 2ndary nade packs are in short supply.

So you wouldn't be making him a god by giving him unlimited super destructive nades (since they would do almost no damage), but he'd be able to tough it out longer outside his base, and not become completely ineffective once he runs out of 2ndary nades.

[Rutabeggar]

As bassackwards as this might sound, why not consider making the Pyros napalm like the Jarate from TF2. For those who don't know, Jarate is an unlocked achievement device when thrown, shatters, soaking the player for a short duration, and from what I remember, allowing critical hits to be done in succession while the Jarate is active.

Have the pyro have his grenade as a "pod" of flammable liquid that they can either initially throw to soak an opponent to take an automatic jump to +1 level burn, or to be thrown on someone already on fire to increase the "intensity" of the burning (+2 level maybe?). You could also use it as a pathway deterrent, where the pyro throws it on the ground, and can ignite it creating a flame sort of wall that causes damage when run through.

[cjeshjoir™]

Originally Posted by Everyone

Napalm napalm napalm

There is nothing wrong with the napalm grenade. Regular grenades are just as deadly, and MIRVs are many times more deadly.