Windows Vista = Goodbye OpenGL

[o_osiris]

Originally Posted by Tetrachromatic

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opengl#...rosoft_Windows

Wow. Fuck Microsoft.

[o_drtom]

lol what are the chances everyone just sticks with xp?
what kind of retard is gonna run something that looks basically liek xp with a couple of silly tack ons but makes their pc run as if its 5 years older.

[o_mooga]

M$ is trying to make Long Horn greater then any other version of windows and in that presses they are KILLING backwards-compadibility.

People are already saying that Firefox can really gain power since the next version of IE is only for XP and up meaning that anyone running 2000, ME, or 98 have no way of upgrading besides Firefox.

[o_travis dane]

Okay before everyone's jumping the gun, I think they're talking about OpenGL on the aeroglass-desktop. I presume you can select between D3D and OGL to accomplish the aeroglass effect. So at the moment, it's just OpenGL on the desktop that'll take the 50% hit, not games\applications. Still a bad thing though.

M$ is trying to make Long Horn greater then any other version of windows and in that presses they are KILLING backwards-compadibility.

People are already saying that Firefox can really gain power since the next version of IE is only for XP and up meaning that anyone running 2000, ME, or 98 have no way of upgrading besides Firefox.

People on 98\ME should consider upgrading their crappy OS, instead of worrying about an outdated IE. And Win2000 doesn't have a lot to show for either, compared to XP.

[o_binarylife]

And Win2000 doesn't have a lot to show for either, compared to XP.
_________________

Win2000 is just the last, good, stable version of windows. I'm using cause I don't feel like buying XP. Mostly because I have the option of holding off and therefore can save money to build my new box.

...but that doesn't relate to anything.
I'm doing that thing where I keepy talking even after all relevant information has been given. Isn't that strange? I do that every now and then. It bothers some people. I mean, seriously. ... OK doing that intentionally is hard.

[o_simmadown]

I doubt the mongoloids that still use 9x are going to be too concerned about upgrading to the next IE. Probably haven't even heard of Mozilla.

-Simma

[mervaka]

Originally Posted by Osiris

It would be technically straightforward to provide an OpenGL ICD within the full Aeroglass experience without compromising the stability or the security of the operating system. Layering OpenGL over Direct3D is a policy more than a technical decision.

As a result, the future of OpenGL as a mainstream library for computer and video games now looks precarious. Microsoft have taken the decision not to release the information necessary to allow third parties (such as those at NVidia, ATI or the other large graphics card manufacturers) to develop replacement drivers, leaving no way to avoid the 50% speed drop.

i thought they had a court order to make windows MORE friendly for other companies to develop compatibly with? indeed fuck microsoft.

Originally Posted by Travis Dane

Okay before everyone's jumping the gun, I think they're talking about OpenGL on the aeroglass-desktop

even so, the statement said it was in a technical sense perfectly possible and straightforward. M$ are just being cunts

[o_travis dane]

Originally Posted by Mervaka

i thought they had a court order to make windows MORE friendly for other companies to develop compatibly with? indeed fuck microsoft.

even so, the statement said it was in a technical sense perfectly possible and straightforward. M$ are just being cunts

Being the Devil's advocate that I am, I'd argue MS is doing nothing wrong. First, I'd state that the aeroglass-interface is a mere gimmick, and doesn't provide anything remotely useful over the Win2000-ish interface. So MS is pretty much free to do whatever they like, as long as the users aren't affected in negative way. So as long as their OpenGL support for games and applications is fine, there's really nothing to argue about. Of course you might think MS are being asses for going with D3D exlusively, and only including a crippled OpenGL version. But then, didn't VALVe do the exact same thing with HL2? Painkiller? FarCry? I don't see anyone here complain about those games, while in fact they are on pretty much the same level as that aeroglass-interface gimmick.

People are free to sue if they can't use windows anymore because of a direction MS has chosen to take, but this aeroglass-interface is completely optional, and doesn't cripple Windows' functionality in any way.

[mervaka]

but still, they chose to be cunts about it, what harm comes to letting the user decide. if OGL works better for a user than D3D, hes naturally going to want the better one, so why did they need to get in a tantrum about the fact their software is potentially inferior, and lock it all down? it only makes them look bad

[o_general levy]

to be honest, the sooner we have standardised standards (no pun intended!) on the PC, the better for games and gamers games just cost too much to produce these days cos of all the different configs....plus the performance boost from more efficient code would be v nice.

[o_travis dane]

Originally Posted by Mervaka

but still, they chose to be cunts about it, what harm comes to letting the user decide. if OGL works better for a user than D3D, hes naturally going to want the better one, so why did they need to get in a tantrum about the fact their software is potentially inferior, and lock it all down? it only makes them look bad

They chose to do it in D3D, which makes sense as it's their own API. Having to incoporate OpenGL as well brings along a truckload of work. It's quite the same reason why a lot of game developers choose a single API these days. Using 2 different APIs at the same time just brings along a lot of overhead.

You're making too big a fuss out of this. You make it seem like you are somehow forced to use D3D, which is nonsense. It's just this aeroglass-interface that needs it. Also, OpenGL is only circumvented with D3D when it interferes with aeroglass's interface, and by that I mean windowed OpenGL windows. Full screen OpenGL windows pose no problem, but windowed ones can conflict when transparent windows (aeroglass) are dragged over them.

I personally have a great preference for OpenGL in everything I do, but the reason I don't mind what MS is doing, is because I simply do not use these useless gimmicks, hence I'm not bothered by it. And I think any self-respected PC user doesn't even bother with fancy desktop-themes, when they're more interested in their performance.

[o_sobe green]

There isn't alot I can't do in Win2k that I'd want to do in XP. I like Win2k better. I don't have -anything- like IE or MSN Messenger integrated. I don't have any product activation that might one day decide it isn't activated. My main GUI doesn't look like a piece of candy or a child's toy. And all of the service packs I've downloaded worked like they were supposed to. Why I'd want to spend 200$ to run a buggy OS is beyond me.

[o_travis dane]

Originally Posted by SoBe Green

I don't have -anything- like IE or MSN Messenger integrated.

MSN isn't integrated, and IE if not used takes up a staggering 1 megabyte, cry me a river.

I don't have any product activation that might one day decide it isn't activated.

Never encountered ANYTHING relating to any kind of activation what so ever.

My main GUI doesn't look like a piece of candy or a child's toy.

Four clicks to disable the luna theme.

And all of the service packs I've downloaded worked like they were supposed to.

Glad to hear that, mine too.

Why I'd want to spend 200$ to run a buggy OS is beyond me.

You failed to point out a single bug, and WindowsXP doesn't even come close to 200$.

[o_frz]

I think windows beta1 vista looks allot more "professional" & "solid" then windows XP or windows 2000.

I even like the new improvements and search features of the OS.

Don't understand why u would stick to windows 2000, when u can have windows XP and dissable the gui in the performance options, making it look like windows 2000 (u can do the same thing in vista).

Just for the installer of vista alone, i would trow XP in the bin.

I'm prolly happy with any try to improve windows. Lets face it, aslong no other OS can provide any level of half decent media content & a product that easy to work with. M$ windows is all we have.

[Jiggles]

The difference between XP and 2k, as far as I'm concerned, is that under XP, I need to spend 8 or so minutes disabling various settings, on a clean install. That's basically it. No real reason to upgrade, unless you really want System Restore (nope), IE with a pop-up blocker (nope), or a built-in firewall (nope).

Though I have a volume liscense version of XP Pro, so I don't have to activate it, ever.

[o_mooga]

Originally Posted by BinaryLife

Win2000 is just the last, good, stable version of windows. I'm using cause I don't feel like buying XP. Mostly because I have the option of holding off and therefore can save money to build my new box.

...but that doesn't relate to anything.
I'm doing that thing where I keepy talking even after all relevant information has been given. Isn't that strange? I do that every now and then. It bothers some people. I mean, seriously. ... OK doing that intentionally is hard.

I like both 2000 and XP but I feel XP is better becuase it's about at stable as 2000 and it's compleatly compatible with everything. I don't know if it's still a problem but when 2000 came out, very few programs ran on it

[o_osiris]

The performance hit DOES effect games.

Originally Posted by Slashdot.org

OpenGL is the industry choice for cross platform, hardware accelerated 3D graphics, and it is also the only way you can get fast 3D graphics on your Linux desktop. It now seems Windows Vista implements OpenGL via Direct3D, seriously degrading its performance and attractiveness to developers." From the article: "In practice this means for OpenGL under Aeroglass: OpenGL performance will be significantly reduced - perhaps as much as 50%, OpenGL on Windows will be fixed at a vanilla version of OpenGL 1.4, No extensions will be possible to expose future hardware innovations. It would be technically straightforward to provide an OpenGL ICD within the full Aeroglass experience without compromising the stability or the security of the operating system. Layering OpenGL over Direct3D is a policy more than a technical decision.

[mervaka]

dont really know why i havnt gone back to 2k, i should when i get around to finding my CD :/

[o_travis dane]

Originally Posted by Osiris

The performance hit DOES effect games.

I didn't claim otherwise, let me quote myself again:

Also, OpenGL is only circumvented with D3D when it interferes with aeroglass's interface, and by that I mean windowed OpenGL windows. Full screen OpenGL windows pose no problem, but windowed ones can conflict when transparent windows (aeroglass) are dragged over them.

So yes, it interferes with anything that is using OpenGL and is running in windowed mode. However, I felt liberal enough to assume most of you ran games in FULLSCREEN, in which case it does not affect them in any way. But I can't stress enough that the performance loss only involves the aeroglass-interface, and DOES NOT, I repeat DOES NOT occur when you're using other themes (Luna, Win2000).

[mervaka]

as long as i can still run opengl stuff in a basic window i dont mind really tbh