make Fortress Forever's development more transparent

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by Bridget

Oh, look, the overwhelming majority of the people think the Engineer is underpowered? That must mean something. It might be some sort of indication. Maybe we should fix the Engineer instead of wasting our resources on adding implementations to classes that arguably have no problems or balance issues?

Actually this is an interesting example. While I've known a couple players who have personally quit FF over this issue, according to squeek this has NOT been in consensus among the vocal players of FF. This is where common sense comes into play. As a longtime AvD player it is BLINDINGLY obvious to me that weakening the sg substantially will dick over defense and screw up gameplay balance unless there's a MAJOR buff added to D somewhere else. And even then, why devastate class balance so heavily unless it's for a great reason? Faster caps in CTF?

I was honestly surprised that so many people didn't see what a huge impact the nerfed sg was having, or how it was allowed in the first place. Now maybe this isn't a problem for other gameplay modes, but to neglect AvD so heavily (the sole reason I played TFC/FF) like this calls into question the judgment of the devs making the decisions. Yes, there has not been a consensus, but there are also people who only play scout on and have never played TFC crying out about the engineer. I honestly don't care about whether the devs listen to the community or not if they make good decisions, but they really haven't here. If the devs honestly don't have a clue how to act in these situations where there isn't a consensus, but TFC had a CLEAR foundation as to which way to go, the obvious path is to stick with TFC roots until a better solution can be found. I'd wager the majority of FF players enjoyed TFC, so you're at least less likely to go WRONG there.

[squeek.]

Bridget knows that the SG is currently being tweaked in the beta. He's purposely leaving out information to prove his point about development team control and prioritization.

We're not perfect (far from it). We can, have, and do make mistakes. But, Bridget, to want to villain-ize the dev team is absurd to me.

As for 2.5, a LITTLE transparency would be nice, for instance, I don't have a CLUE as to what direction the devs currently think FF needs to go at the moment (gameplay-wise).

This is something we can do. But, as Bridget said/alluded to, we are testing a lot of weird/fun ideas at the moment and don't have much set in stone (hence the need for beta testing and feedback) and/or don't have the assets ready for the things that are further along. Once things are more finalized, it will be more feasible to let people know about them.

[reaper18]

Have to agree with chilled 100% and bridget, well, never thought id say this, but 99%
As mentioned in another thread, I've been supporting this mod since release, if anything, by playing it. So it kinda feels like a knife in the back to us supporters that the only bone we get thrown on anything about 2.5 is by Elmo in the dev journal, and even that isnt much.
The game is unbalanced as hell, and was better off at version 1.0 than it is now.
Dont get me wrong, FF is an amazing game, it just badly needs balanced and a little bit of polish.
THEN you will have a mod worth advertising.

[zE]

Imo ff isnt that unbalanced, and I would hate to see a new TF2 extremely balanced that makes it no fun at all but anyway imo what ff needs is more plugins, with this i mean auto balance teams, all those out there wont work with ff, also some sort of plugin to make players randomly join red or blue team in ctf / avd / id maps , because good players always play in other good players teams and play 24/7 as soldier defense wich make teams staked and make newbs rage quit basicly. And also some type of solution to avoid 10 defenders and 2 offies : p This view aplys only to public server perspective.

[Gator-]

This game was at its prime when I used to play. I just need to actually come back to revive it so Bridget can stfu

[Ricey]

Originally Posted by Gator-

This game was at its prime when I used to play. I just need to actually come back to revive it so Bridget can stfu

No, you can stay away, we do not miss you at all. Not even a little bit.

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by squeek

This is something we can do. But, as Bridget said/alluded to, we are testing a lot of weird/fun ideas at the moment and don't have much set in stone (hence the need for beta testing and feedback) and/or don't have the assets ready for the things that are further along. Once things are more finalized, it will be more feasible to let people know about them.

Well that's worth waiting to check out then and not judging prematurely. I've said before you guys either need to revert back to TFC more or else make a LOT of changes to fix things, it looks like you're opting for the latter. Sounds like FF may be taking more of a NeoTF angle, but hey, if it gets balanced and it's still fun, whatever works.

Originally Posted by squeek

But, Bridget, to want to villain-ize the dev team is absurd to me.

I don't know Bridget's agenda, but for myself, believe it or not, I'm actually not out to demonize anyone. All I really care about is the end result. Also it's not just one mistake I'm looking at it, I can understand how that can happen. But when we've had patch after patch that's made the gameplay balance systematically worse (2.4 being a minor departure, but still not a correction), the new dev team starts becomining the obvious antagonist.

When you can actively point to item after item 1.0 did a better job of than later patches up to the current version, that's a problem and it makes you guys look like the enemy, however good your intentions are. It's one thing to make a mistake. It's another thing to keep making more of the same kind of mistake with many pleading for you to stop making that same mistake over and over again with no change in sight.

Originally Posted by zE

Imo ff isnt that unbalanced, and I would hate to see a new TF2 extremely balanced that makes it no fun at all but anyway imo what ff needs is more plugins

You may be misunderstanding what we're saying. I'm talking about TFC-style balance, not TF2. In TFC, you had classes with great abilities and HARD counters for a lot of them. The right player could completely turn the tide for the entire team if he was clever / lucky enough. A coordinated effort was devastating, but good players could really shine. In TF2, EVERYONE gets dumbed down so that the individual player is crippled. A lot of the "balance" comes from the pace being so slow and abilities being so limited that the game can only move so fast, thus there's more time to correct itself. I'm not advocating that.

If you really think the balance is fine, my guess is you simply haven't played as much AvD as I have. Even when the teams are basically even skillwise, it's still a mess. The balance I'm talking about is not having dustbowl and palermo games where O wins 90% of the time when I play (on either side). Having avanti, ksour, cornfield, etc. games where O doesn't win all 4 cap points in 3-5 minutes. Having CLOSE GAMES.

[Hammock]

For me, I would just like to see the main page updated more frequently.

I mean the updates don't even have to say much, or mean anything.

But I've been playing the game since it's official release, and even I find it a little depressing to see that the most recent news article, is the last patch over half a year ago. Then the next article is the patch before that... etc. It can't be giving a very positive outlook for anyone who's just checking the site out to see that the latested news released was back in February for a patch.

[KubeDawg]

I think Dev journals were great. It was nice to see what each individual developer was working on assuming they had some free time to write about it.

[Bridget]

Originally Posted by squeek.

Bridget knows that the SG is currently being tweaked in the beta. He's purposely leaving out information to prove his point about development team control and prioritization.

Yes, the Sentry Gun was being worked on at one time, but then people stopped caring for it and went about adding shit to classes that don't need shit. All the resources and time wasted on these 'weird/fun' ideas could have been better been spent fixing the problem completely instead of addressing some of it and abandoning it in favor of something else. The development team is all over the place. They do not focus their efforts.

Also, to think that the opinions of like five beta testers actually represents the community is a joke. Most of the beta-testers, I presume, do not voice their actual opinions due to their privileged position. They feel like if they tell you guys that your implementations here and here are a fucking laughing stock, that you guys, being in total control of the development of the mod and being partial to your own implementations, will just tell them to get lost, consider their suggestions or criticism as nothing but 'whining' or 'trolling', or you'll dismiss them all together with something like 'No, that's a bad idea, we can't test this, I already know it's bad, I'm a dev, I know more than you.'

I know at-least two beta testers who have completely changed their opinion on the direction of this game from joining the closed beta. Why do you think so many of the beta testers are gone? They probably got the inside view of things, felt disappointed, and got the hell out of here. It wouldn't be surprising. Those who join the beta do so to see how the game is progressing, why it takes a damn year from patch to patch, why the game is slowly going downhill. That's one of the reasons I joined. Well, I now know why:

• Development team doesn't focus its efforts correctly.
• Development team doesn't prioritize correctly.
• Development team acts on spontaneous impulse to make changes/additions.
• Development team spends more time adding shit than fixing already implemented shit.
• Development team wastes resources on random weird/fun implementations.
• Development team neglects using the community it is creating the game for to better the game.
• Development team caters the game to the competitive crowd at the expense of the public crowd.
• Development team persists in false dichotomy that FF can only be for the pub or for the pickup community.

The development team process in a nutshell: A development team member gets a random idea. They immediately drop their obligation to fixing an existing problem. They focus their efforts on implementing this idea, and the resulting "exhaustion" means they take a break and ignore their obligation to fixing that existing problem. The beta team tests the idea and can either like it or hate it. If they like it, and the earlier mentioned development team member went back to fixing the problem, he's pulled in to work on polishing it or making it "optimal". If the beta team dislikes the idea, then it isn't always immediately scrapped. Instead, the same result happens as if the beta team had liked it. They focus their efforts trying to make it better or polish it until a point comes that the beta team likes it. Well, the beta team eventually gets so fucking fed up with the development team being so dedicated and partial to their ideas, that they confess that the ideas are great even when they're goddamn terrible, because it speeds the process up a bit. All this time, the real problems aren't being worked on.

Here's a chart for those who need things simplified.

[Dexter]

lol expert alert

[squeek.]

Opinions of changes are, always have been, and always will be, mixed. The same holds true within the development team. Iteration is necessary to find the good things and weed out the bad. That whole "Take a baby, bathwater, and throw it" thing. Plus, it shouldn't be a surprise that people tend towards devoting time to doing things they like doing when they are volunteering to do something.

Originally Posted by Bridget

Also, to think that the opinions of like five beta testers actually represents the community is a joke. Most of the beta-testers, I presume, do not voice their actual opinions due to their privileged position. They feel like if they tell you guys that your implementations here and here are a fucking laughing stock, that you guys, being in total control of the development of the mod and being partial to your own implementations, will just tell them to get lost, consider their suggestions or criticism as nothing but 'whining' or 'trolling', or you'll dismiss them all together with something like 'No, that's a bad idea, we can't test this, I already know it's bad, I'm a dev, I know more than you.'

Sure, we're the big bad dev team that's keeping you, the voice of the people, down. Exactly what are you basing this claim off of? Your presumptions about the thoughts and behaviors of beta testers that aren't Bridget aren't exactly convincing. But, let me put it out there to all beta members just in case: Feel free to criticize anything you want in the beta forums (which you already are encouraged to do). Come out of the woodwork, you sulking, downtrodden betas; it's okay (and it always has been)!

As for ideas getting neglected, feel free to prod them along. Things might get neglected because we feel they need more testing before taking further action or we need more feedback. So, the best thing you can do is provide that testing and/or feedback. This is especially true with the SG. The SG is currently in a state of stasis in the beta because the feedback on it is largely in a state of stasis.

[KubeDawg]

tl;dr (to bridget's post)

[squeek.]

I also want to address this idea that the beta team fakes liking ideas to appease the iron fist of the dev team. Why in the world would a beta member do that? Are you doing that? Is there evidence for anyone else doing that?

Aside from that part and the "Actual problem ignored" part (both of which I'd contend are not true), I'd say the development process according to that chart is pretty good in terms of testing new ideas. We iterate on things we think have good intentions but are not implemented well, we scrap things that are bad, and we keep things that are good.

By the way, your chart also directly refutes your earlier point that the beta team has no say in the development process.

[Bridget]

Originally Posted by squeek.

So, the best thing you can do is provide that testing and/or feedback. This is especially true with the SG. The SG is currently in a state of stasis in the beta because the feedback on it is largely in a state of stasis.

Welcome to the original point, that you need someone to provide you with feedback. The five beta testers are not going to cut it. Meanwhile, look at the public forums. A huge potential for feedback, of course not the 'end-all' source of feedback because they lack testing ability, but still an untapped reserve of opinion and evaluation. CCCCCCCCCContinue missing that point.

Originally Posted by squeek.

By the way, your chart also directly refutes your earlier point that the beta team has no say in the development process.

My point wasn't that the beta team has no influence. They're rarely the reason behind an implementation or big discussion that could heavily influence the game. That's because you guys value your ideas over our own. We're just being feed your ideas most of the time or ones you're extremely partial to even when everyone else couldn't care less.

[Iggy]

I've been a tester for close to 4 years now... at no point did I ever hold back on my opinions, positive or negative, to something being proposed/tested/implemented.

I don't like all of the changes that have been made, but I also don't think my opinions go unheard or ignored.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by Bridget

Welcome to the original point, that you need someone to provide you with feedback. The five beta testers are not going to cut it. Meanwhile, look at the public forums. A huge potential for feedback, of course not the 'end-all' source of feedback because they lack testing ability, but still an untapped reserve of opinion and evaluation. CCCCCCCCCContinue missing that point.

I will continue to miss that point, because I am of the opinion that those resources are too hard to tap or have the potential to blow up in our face (see Gulf of Mexico [hows that for the most unwarranted analogy ever?]).

My point wasn't that the beta team has no influence. They're rarely the reason behind an implementation or big discussion that could heavily influence the game. That's because you guys value your ideas over our own. We're just being feed your ideas most of the time or ones you're extremely partial to even when everyone else couldn't care less.

Perhaps a fair criticism, but it's hard to correct. What's your proposed solution to this? Implement and test every idea that any beta member has? Implement your ideas, specifically? Is it possible that you are partial to your own ideas and are falling into the same trap?

[Bridget]

How is it going to blow up in your face? Could allowing the community more of a voice or at-least just an appreciation of the development process through transparency be more of problem than the gamble of releasing a patch once a year with ideas only tested by a handful of people who are supposed to represent the entire community?

As ChilledSanity points out, at-least you could know when an idea is not fully appreciated through both the testing of the beta and the opinion of the community, and therefore know your allocation of resources there is probably a waste of time and can immediately move elsewhere. What happens now? Everything has to be presumed to be a 'hit' until patch time comes, and if it doesn't work out as expected, people are subject to those changes for another year, which can be a huge hit to the popularity of the mod.

[AfterShock]

I tell you whats really good for the development process:

Openly criticising FF development constantly, in an attempt to steer FF offcourse as much as possible, whilst wasting the developers time and generally demotivating anyone who even thought about doing any work on it, voluntarily, giving up their spare time so you can play a game for free then whine how after 4 years of work it's not good enough for you.

[BOSTWIX]

Originally Posted by Hammock

For me, I would just like to see the main page updated more frequently.

I mean the updates don't even have to say much, or mean anything.

But I've been playing the game since it's official release, and even I find it a little depressing to see that the most recent news article, is the last patch over half a year ago. Then the next article is the patch before that... etc. It can't be giving a very positive outlook for anyone who's just checking the site out to see that the latested news released was back in February for a patch.

What he said. Anything will suffice.