Warpath being made

[Elmo]

Originally Posted by Hammock

That whole mid section around cap 3 looks tiny. It could be just the angle from the pictures but it looks like a solly could do a single rocket jump across the canyon.

Its about the same size as tfc, I followed dimensions quite closely.

Originally Posted by Hammock

Plus now you're letting people cross from up top? Doesn't that sorta defeat the purpose of a bridge when all anyone has to do is take a side route (and just as easy to take), for O and D?

In TFC only the concers could take that upper part and not take damage, now any old class can run up there, even build sg's up there.

And on defense that was a spot you could get out to get number 3 turn the tides, now any offensive player would have to contest with potentially the entire enemy team going that route, and I see sg's being built there.

Not a huge fan of that idea. The only ways across should be the bridge, the tunnel and the ladders out of the pit.

All I can really say is that it hasn't proven a problem so far and in fact seems to work quite nicely. For now beta testing will continue and we'll determine how it works in those tests. There's no point in me going over theories with those not in the beta when testing is so much more worthwhile (sorry)

[Hammock]

Unfortunately the "beta" testing has been proven lacking time and time again due to the fact it's completely unable to replicate a pubbers environment.

Essentially just beta testing maps with people that know exactly what they're doing just makes maps "balanced" for vets.

You guys have even said in beta tests dustbowl works for you guys.

And that's what i'm afraid of because dustbowl, was my all time favorite map in TFC and it's an utter failure in FF, warpath was also in my top 5 favorite maps and I just don't want to see it go the way of dustbowl.

Obviously I can't knock it before I try it, I just have fears for this legendary TFC map, it's seriously the last thing I've been looking forward to in this game.

[chilledsanity]

Elmo: I guess I can't complain since no one else is finishing this, but if you're following TFC dimensions closely, that's the WRONG thing to do for FF. FF has faster run speeds and jump pads, meaning maps that worked in TFC feel tiny now. If you need an example of this, look no further than avanti classic. That map was a nice moderate push in TFC and it's over FAST when I play it in FF.

Hammock: Yeah, I agree with you 100% on dustbowl. I kind of want to become a beta tester, but only for AvD and fun map gameplay. I'm not sure they'd accept me on those terms however, plus even if I beat dustbowl well ahead of time in every playtest, I'm not sure it would change anything.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

I kind of want to become a beta tester, but only for AvD and fun map gameplay.

Hint: That's basically all we play in the beta. CTF is rare and gives much more useful feedback when it's structured and all players are of semi-equal skill, so therefore we usually schedule CTF tests outside of the main beta testing times.

[chilledsanity]

squeek: Well how is balance determined for beta tests? Like if I joined then offense started winning 90-100% of all dustbowl games, and AvD cap points on maps each took between 30 seconds to 2 minutes, would that impact anything?

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

squeek: Well how is balance determined for beta tests? Like if I joined then offense started winning 90-100% of all dustbowl games, and AvD cap points on maps each took between 30 seconds to 2 minutes, would that impact anything?

It's tricky because of all the variables in the beta currently, but... maybe? We'd certainly talk about it while playing and then again on the beta forums.

I'm not exactly sure why you think you'd be some huge unstoppable force on dustbowl, but go ahead and apply for the beta team and try it out.

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by squeek.

I'm not exactly sure why you think you'd be some huge unstoppable force on dustbowl, but go ahead and apply for the beta team and try it out.

It's not that I think I'm god's gift to dustbowl by any means. But here are my observations:

1. Since about 2.1, I win almost every single dustbowl game I play when I'm offense in pubs. I lose most of those same games when I'm on D (and the ones I don't, O is TOTALLY clueless). I'm not talking a couple games, I'm talking dozens per patch and hundreds over the years. I've seen lots of very competent D teams try their best to hold and fail consistently in the last few patches.

2. You've said that the beta games of dustbowl come out very even. I have no idea why this is.

Conclusion:

Maybe me playing on O in dustbowl makes a difference.

[Hawk Eye]

Seriously- apply. You obviously spend a lot of time thinking about AvD balance, sign up and lets test some of your ideas out directly.

[Elmo]

Originally Posted by Hammock

Unfortunately the "beta" testing has been proven lacking time and time again due to the fact it's completely unable to replicate a pubbers environment.

Essentially just beta testing maps with people that know exactly what they're doing just makes maps "balanced" for vets.

You guys have even said in beta tests dustbowl works for you guys.

And that's what i'm afraid of because dustbowl, was my all time favorite map in TFC and it's an utter failure in FF, warpath was also in my top 5 favorite maps and I just don't want to see it go the way of dustbowl.

Obviously I can't knock it before I try it, I just have fears for this legendary TFC map, it's seriously the last thing I've been looking forward to in this game.

Well our testing is all we have to go by and we cant test any differently, we just attack/defend mindlessly n have a laugh. We don't try tactics or anything like that. We don't do anything special other than 'play the game' as much as a pubber would. only difference being we know how to play the classes. And as Squeek said we pretty much only play AVD.

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by Elmo

Well our testing is all we have to go by and we cant test any differently, we just attack/defend mindlessly n have a laugh. We don't try tactics or anything like that. We don't do anything special other than 'play the game' as much as a pubber would. only difference being we know how to play the classes. And as Squeek said we pretty much only play AVD.

Well hey, this may be why the beta tests come out balanced. I'm a tactics FREAK. When I play, I do it like my life depends on it. I constantly assess what's going on and adjust based on the situation. On O, the first thing I try to do is enable my team as much as possible. This means building jump pads in key points to get everyone to the front line quicker. If there's a particularly nasty spot for an sg, then taking that out.

Once I've done that, I see how my team is doing. If they're not pushing hard enough, don't have enough of a clue, (or in rare cases someone else is being an "enabler") then I change my tactics accordingly and determine the best way to punch through. I almost never stay the same class for a full round, I constantly change depending on what's needed at the moment. A spy may be what's needed for the final cap, but a solly or sniper may be what's needed for when the gates open. Demoman or solly to break up strong (and alert) D, scout to get the team moving forward, pyro for maps with lots of vertical obstacles to exploit, etc.

Being used to pubs, I never really communicate with my team aside from typing "flag on cap", I just try to adapt the best I can to whatever they're doing. In old FF, playing this way was still pretty challenging. In modern FF, it's usually a joke. If the dev team is balancing towards casual AvD games, this could go a long way to explaining why it seems so unbalanced to me.

[Ricey]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

Blah Blah Blah, I R BEST PUBBER EVAH!

SOOO HARDCORE!

[Elmo]

I meant we dont do tactics as a team like you would in CTF with specific positions, fall back points and such. I didnt say we don't think about what we're doing.. In fact I did also say "only difference being we know how to play the classes" which to me involves everything you said.

So... you can rethink everything you just said

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by Ricey

SOOO HARDCORE!

Yeah, yeah, the only reason I typed all that was because of "we just attack/defend mindlessly n have a laugh. We don't try tactics or anything like that" made it sound like you guys were just in there running around and giggling like schoolgirls.

I am NOT a great player, but I do try my best when I play and it usually means an insta-win on O.

Originally Posted by Elmo

In fact I did also say "only difference being we know how to play the classes" which to me involves everything you said.

See I wasn't sure, because I've seen a lot of players who are good at their class not switch up to what's needed as the situation changes. Plus there are maps, I mean most pubbers aren't even aware od the teleporter on anticitizen. Plus the entire founding dev and beta team never noticed how the sg never worked in windows in the original FF dustbowl, something I noticed the first time I played. I'll take your word for it people know what they're doing though.

Originally Posted by Elmo

So... you can rethink everything you just said

Fine, that means I'm back to no answer as to why I win practically every O game in AvD pubs, lose most D, yet everything comes out ph balanced in beta.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

Plus the entire founding dev and beta team never noticed how the sg never worked in windows in the original FF dustbowl, something I noticed the first time I played.

The entire founding dev and beta team have little in common with the current dev and beta team.

[Ricey]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

Yeah, yeah, the only reason I typed all that was because of "we just attack/defend mindlessly n have a laugh. We don't try tactics or anything like that" made it sound like you guys were just in there running around and giggling like schoolgirls.

I am NOT a great player, but I do try my best when I play and it usually means an insta-win on O.

See I wasn't sure, because I've seen a lot of players who are good at their class not switch up to what's needed as the situation changes. Plus there are maps, I mean most pubbers aren't even aware od the teleporter on anticitizen. Plus the entire founding dev and beta team never noticed how the sg never worked in windows in the original FF dustbowl, something I noticed the first time I played. I'll take your word for it people know what they're doing though.

Fine, that means I'm back to no answer as to why I win practically every O game in AvD pubs, lose most D, yet everything comes out ph balanced in beta.

I shall repeat my self... SOOOO HARDCORE!!!

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by squeek.

The entire founding dev and beta team have little in common with the current dev and beta team.

Well I wouldn't be too quick to separate yourself on that example squeek since you originally denied the problem existed when I reported it until I came back and presented concrete proof of it. Even then, it didn't get fixed months later in the next patch, so I made a new post of it, with even more proof and it was like a big surprise to the devs all over again. Anyway, that's moot point since it eventually got fixed, but it does make me skeptical. I know the beta team has had an overhaul. As for the dev team, this incident occurred through most of 2008, I'm not sure when the changing of the guard was there between the old and new devs.

[Hammock]

If you look at the difference between TFC and FF's dustbowl, other than a couple locations throughout the map, the mid maps play the same for the most part.

I could sit here for an hour and point out the similarities and small discrepencies between the two game's dustbowls. But what it all boils down to is, the initial gates, then the 2ndary choke points were holdable for considerabley longer in TFC. Even in TFC if those choke points were lost, the offense jumped ahead to the next choke point.

In FF, the initial gates are a joke to defend, there isn't a single round where a decent player can't break out on his own.

Then it's even more of a joke for for defense to try and defend at a 2ndary position.

I know I said I wasn't going to spend time point out differences...but.

For example round2. After you get through the middle of the round, into the jumping yard, in TFC that location could be defended just as well as the initial gates, in FF defense doesn't even try to defend it, they drop right back to the cap point, and then that fails, cause you could have 3 sg's there and still have a medic nade jump it in.

It's like that whole secion needs to be bigger, cause FF sg's fail in small areas.

[chilledsanity]

It's not just the sg, but yeah, dustbowl round 2 is a perfect example. In old FF and TFC you had the gate defense, the back defense area (near the grenade area and forks), the tunnel exit defenses, and finally the cap defense. You basically had 3 sub-areas to fall back to as D. Occasionally attackers would get a break and skip through one or two, but that was rare. It was just as likely D might be able to reclaim one sub-area.

In modern FF, once the gate defense is smashed on 2, it's really best to just fall back to the cap. Anything else and you're risking an even faster cap because they can move by so fast.

[Sacrifist]

New warpath looks pretty nice. Only thing that I would alter would be the wood textures. Nothing against your texturing as it looks spot on, but a "Path of War" would not have anything made of wood left standing. Im guessing that is the reason for the brick in the original. Metal or brick would probably be the proper textures for a "Warpath". Although, I do overthink to much from time to time

[zE]

leave the wood! im a bit sick of rusty metal industrial textures, like that looks clean and uber D :