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Old 05-26-2009, 08:39 PM   #1
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First Look At Fortress Forever [insert essay here]

Okay, so I downloaded the game a couple nights ago. Long time TFC player, relatively long term TF2 player so I'm just gonna give my initial thoughts about the game either if you're interested or constructive criticism or whatever (flame on after this post ). So... Que the essay.

First up, I stopped playing TFC primarily because as many people are aware, it is a dying game. The gameplay is frustrating at times, the graphics are old (although that doesn't both me much) and the community aspect is slim to nill. Going from that fast pased gameplay to TF2 was a breath of fresh air as I could appreciate the actual TEAM aspect of the game as opposed to having to bhop to the objective as fast as possible and hoping some guy can conc himself into the flag cap point. TFC is largely skill based whereas TF2 is team based (as I see it). That said, there is still a place for the type of fast paced gameplay that TFC and FF are based around.

Often upon joining TFC servers towards the latter years of it's life, it became too elitist and anyone new to the game was hurled abuse and "GTFO NOOB!" remarks - in my opinion the primary reason for the game dying. The learning curve was too steep if you hadn't played it before and you would have to find a server whereby people would help you out and show you around (which as I first said, is next to impossible). You basically had to know someone within the game that had played a while to show you what to do, or grind your way taking the time on LAN servers by yourself to work out what grenades do what, what each class is capable of etc. It's easier now with the possibility of online tutorials (youtube etc) but people want to plug-in and play now rather then take the time to get into a game (I'll get onto that later).


As an important point... I've noticed a lot of games/mods which although great to play once you've grinded through learning how to play it in the first place suffer due to it's lack of tutorials and do not have many people playing it and die out quickly.

A few examples being mods such as The Specialists, Sven Co-Op, Natural Selection to name a few have all died out save for a few loyal gamers and the occasional person that tries it out. They don't have tutorials and are plauged by elitests who have taken the time to find exploits (such as bhoping, speeding etc) to rape anyone new that comes to the game so the few that do take the time to try it out get frustrated and uninstall to go back to their comfort zone (again, more on this at the end). The games are not bad (infact, they're actually very enjoyable), they just suffer due to having skill levels to play the game how it "should" be played



Anyway, enough about other crap and onto Fortress Forever and what I think about it and why I think it's not as popular as it really should be.


Firstly yes, it is pretty much TFC with some added (and I will add - cool) features such as the scout jump pad etc as well as somewhat better graphics and ragdolls etc. The omission of teleporters I'm not so bothered about but it'd be nice to have them





The first thing I'd like to talk about though...

- Graphics + Level Design
Honestly, although the maps look nice and faithfully recreate TFC maps sometimes the graphics do just look too much like HL1 graphics, especially the character models. The diversity between the models isn't that great and telling apart some classes consists to having to get closer to them (which by that time you're probably dead). Whilst I know this isn't a full on paid-for game, it'd be nice to see some diversity there and it'd certainly help people identify with a character more.

Overall though, I have no real other qualms with level design (but wait for it). It's all good although some are overly busy (I would have prefered Dustbowl to be a little bit less cluttered etc).

The one thing (I did say wait for it!) that I honestly think should be completely removed from the game is the ability for the other team to get into/fire into your spawn. This is by far the most retarded part of any game and especially the original TFC. There is nothing more stupid then sitting in the first attacking base on Dustbowl and having a single demoman pelt 101 grenades into your base keeping you all in there to the point where you can barely get out. TF2 addressed this by making the base bigger, giving übers to blast your way out, changing the ladder to steps and adding other exits etc

By no means do I think you should alter the maps too much, but just stop the nade spam in spawns since that's what keeps most people away from TFC in general.

The HUD can be confusing to be honest. Maybe it's my poor eyesight but I found it hard to tell how much HP I had left when rocket jumping etc and the ammo counter is a bit small. I will add about the HUD that the kills needs to be more defined. You have to look at the kills list to see if you've got stuff whereas in a lot of main source games these days the kills are highlighted for you. That's one thing I think should definatly be added in. One main attraction to TFC was taking out lots of people with a grenade or something. Having the kills highlighted showing your "pownage" certainly attracts people


- Movement
Whilst many people have said bhop is a thing of the past, honestly I think people would enjoy the dexterity, skill and learning how to do something different. It is a unique selling point to a game these days and I think it should be left in.

The new bhop technique whereby you don't have to time your jumps exact helps alot and no doubt will make things easier for new commers.

The only thing I will add to this, is to suggest to add a tutorial part to the menu along with New Game, Find Servers, Settings etc. I know there is one on this site (which I will add is helpful) but some people just don't have the effort to get out of the game to find it. Having a tutorial video system set up whereby a small keyboard/mouse is shown in the top corner showing what the person is doing helps alot and is one of the best aspects to an online gaming tutorial.


- Classes
The main part that frustrates me most about this aspect of the game is that the class menu (where you choose what you'll be) gives no indication of what your class is capable and assumes you know what to do. Many new users have to find out by trial and error. Simply giving a full screen class menu similar to TFC or TF2 detailing what their class can do, what their grenades do etc will help vastly.

As mentioned before, the class models really need to be a bit more diverse and the symbols above the head displaying which team they're on could do with being bigger. There's nothing more iritating then being on the red team and shotgunning a blue soldier for 5 seconds before realising he's a spy on your team (my eyesight must be really crap...). Perhaps taking a leaf out of TF2's book and leaving the spies on your team your colour/spy skin would help.

That said, the classes could do with being a bit more balanced. For example, snipers dominate on well and many other large maps and it seems pointless to play as anything else. Perhaps giving them restricted view (a scope shape) so they can only see where they're aiming would help greatly in reducing the amount of rape they deal out.

Some weapon models for characters although faithful to the original game are just bad looking. The nailgun model in particular - it's bullets really don't do the source engine justice. Perhaps something similar to TF2's syringe gun where it actually fire's nails rather then triangles Again, I know this isn't a paid-for full game but those are some things that'll attract people (since their gun and what's coming out of it are the first things they will see).

Sentry guns and dispensers look like TFC's sgs and dispensers... Which too be honest is a box with barrels. Not that I've got anything against that but turning around a corner and seeing a big box with barrels around the corner is kinda... Meeeeehh..

Spy's menu is a minefield for a fast paced game such as FF. Perhaps taking a leaf out of TF2's book may be in order here since a new player would probably not take the time to memorise which numbers to press upon holding down right click. The cloak is sluggish although the motion sensor on sentry guns is a great feature which makes games more tense and fun.

Throwing grenades is a bit of a bore as well. It made me have to remember how to do it from TFC which although came fast, will probably not come for a new player. Honestly, I'd rather you were able to prime the nades by having them as a seperate weapon (which you actually hold in a hand) and throw them by holding down the left click and letting go when you want to.

That said, when I first played TFC I had no idea grenades even existed and was constantly confused as to why I was dying so often (). This is probably because you don't actually see the grenades which is just confusing to a new player. Having them as a seperate weapon in the number menu (maybe a ` key or something?) where the first person player pulls out a grenade could be a suggestion.

A medigun for a medic is definatly needed. The ability to throw health kits out is however a good idea and poisoning people etc



Overall, there's nothing else I can really think of saying about the game. It is fun if you get on a decent server/map although some maps such as dustbowl, well etc can just be annoying with nade spam or snipers (but that's TFC for you and if you don't want that... play TF2 ).

About the game not being as popular as it could be, I think it's somewhat down to the things I've mentioned above but mostly due to advertising. I actually had to search this game out a while back (before it came out), completely forgot about it untill very recently when a mate was talking about TFC and wishing they made a source version. I do sit on other gaming forums a bit and don't hear about FF so perhaps some shameless spaming is in order?

I have seen on other mods endorsement from server companies where they will provide an "official" server. A good place to start for people coming into the game where a map rotation is quick and shows the "fravorite" maps. It also helps if that server company has a Steam group or other servers whereby they can advertise FF. It's a long shot but whatever

Anyway, perhaps slow down the classes a little bit to make it not so fast paced and then just advertise it as a pure skill game (similar to those adverts that play on people's masculinity - "are you man enough", "have you got what it takes?", "call yourself a gamer?" etc haha )

So, that's my essay for anyone interested... Flame on!
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Old 05-27-2009, 12:25 AM   #2
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I still play TFC, and on one of the few remaining community servers still going(Drippy's 2fort).

You raise some good points, and I'm glad you got a chance to find us again. There is still a lot of work to do(we really need someone skilled at modeling, and not the Paris Hilton kind), and believe me, we do have people working on it.

I really don't have time to address your individual points at the moment, but everyone's opinion is welcome. You kept your post very civil, and that's appreciated.

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Old 05-27-2009, 05:57 AM   #3
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good post, many things you mentioned we're very aware of. Its just having the man power to make the changes. Such as modellers, we're lacking big time.

We have plans.... big ones which should address (at least) some of your qualms with the game.
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Old 05-27-2009, 04:13 PM   #4
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Yeah I will add that whilst my post may seem a bit negative in some places, I do enjoy the game and just hope for it to get a bit bigger.

The community aspect isn't so much a worry compared to TFC because whereas TFC players tend to shun anyone new to the game, of the active servers I've been on recently, some players have asked others if they were new to the game (usually because they're doing something wrong or 'stupid'). Rather then the TFC attitude of then barraging them with insults, those players actually help them out which is a big plus in my books. Also many seem to have headset microphones which is helpful

I didn't mention some things in my post such as pyro's etc as I have read/heard that they will be changed in updates


On the topic of me stating I couldn't really indentify with teams or player models, I did see this video which I found extremely interesting and quite helpful for my level designing (I do dabble in hammer editor from time to time )



Will probably get burned a bit more for bringing in TF2, but hey, there's no denying the models/teams are easily indentifable
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Old 05-28-2009, 12:42 AM   #5
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My friend, you are not bringing up TF2 to make comparisons and put FF down.... so no one should hate on you. Your post about FF wasn't negative(at least I didn't read it that way)... it was posting your views on the mod, not bashing it. There's a big difference between the two.
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Old 05-28-2009, 08:22 AM   #6
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I have to say something here, seems people from the dev team or the testers or whoever it be are still at war with valve for some reason over tf2.

Valve is the original designer of HL1 and all mods there after and the designer of the source engine and the source mods without them there would be no fortressforever..Now after that being said FF was a great idea and is a fun game to play but lets stop the war with valve and tf2 and compairing either.

I think the little video he provided was in context to what he was saying about the FF players models being to blended together or hard to determan what classes they are and so on if im correct.

Now lets all be honest here tf2 was a great designed game with alot of thought behind all thats involved in the making.

Tf2 is not tfc or FF and I really feel bad more people didnt start playing FF or are still playing whatever the case otherwise I would play FF all night.

I personally am not bashing valve anymore over their decision and direction they made to create tf2 and I think the rest of you should do so also.Maybe there are a couple things you can take from tf2 and add them to FF maybe not thats not my decision to make.

Lets stop the war
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Old 05-28-2009, 02:16 PM   #7
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molester, what the hell are you even talking about? you must be meaning to respond to a different thread, because nothing that you described has even begun to take place in this one.


TFCFan, you made a lot of good points in your posts, and a lot of them are being worked on (training mode especially) or have been talked about by the devs and are something we would like to do but probably wont be able to get done for a long time because of staff shortage (more distinct player models).
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Old 05-28-2009, 02:33 PM   #8
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Molester maybe if you smoked more weed like Iggy you could see things how they really are.

Thanks for your posts TFCFan.
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Old 05-28-2009, 11:42 PM   #9
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WTF are you talking about when anyone mentions tf2 in any context theres always a negitive responce.

You guys bitch all the time about tf2 and valve.
Also playing in servers its just one big fuck tf2 and valve all the time always people arguing over tf2 and FF.
Whenever anyone mentions tf2 its always "this isint the forum to discuss tf2" or something like that like its some disease.
And then comes this "you'er crazy" "you need to smoke more weed" "wtf are you talking about" you know exactly what im talking about.

Look at iggys first line of his replie....
My friend, you are not bringing up TF2 to make comparisons and put FF down.... so no one should hate on you.

You cant even mention tf2 without being spit on in FF servers and alot of times in this forum.

Maybe this should have been a topic on its own but I was trying to make a point that the video he was showing was just an aid to help maybe bring some insight into the FF player models not everyone who mentions tf2 is compairing them.

Theres more I could say but if you cant understand my point then I dont know what to tell you.

Also, I like you guys im not hating on you I just want to see people lay off the tf2 and FF argument.Lets start to get along with people that play tf2 its not all that bad to agree that tf2 isint that bad of a mod or game whatever the fuck it is.

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Old 05-29-2009, 12:28 AM   #10
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Ok here's the thing, Iggy's first line
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy View Post
My friend, you are not bringing up TF2 to make comparisons and put FF down.... so no one should hate on you.
He is telling him he has done nothing wrong. You seem to be the only one creating a big fuss here. If I'm wrong maybe I should smoke some?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Molester View Post
WTF are you talking about when anyone mentions tf2 in any context theres always a negitive responce.

You guys bitch all the time about tf2 and valve.
Nobody has done that in this thread.
You guys meaning who? The Dev Team?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Molester View Post

You guys bitch all the time about tf2 and valve.
Also playing in servers its just one big fuck tf2 and valve all the time always people arguing over tf2 and FF.
Whenever anyone mentions tf2 its always "this isint the forum to discuss tf2" or something like that like its some disease.[/QUOTE]

When they just bash FF and do no constructive criticism it isn't. TFCFan did a very good job of posting and nobody said differnt or made a stink until you showed up.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Molester View Post
And then comes this "you'er crazy" "you need to smoke more weed" "wtf are you talking about" you know exactly what im talking about.

Look at iggys first line of his replie....
My friend, you are not bringing up TF2 to make comparisons and put FF down.... so no one should hate on you.

You cant even mention tf2 without being spit on in FF servers and alot of times in this forum.
I addressed this first.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Molester View Post
Maybe this should have been a topic on its own but I was trying to make a point that the video he was showing was just an aid to help maybe bring some insight into the FF player models not everyone who mentions tf2 is compairing them.

Theres more I could say but if you cant understand my point then I dont know what to tell you.

Also, I like you guys im not hating on you I just want to see people lay off the tf2 and FF argument.Lets start to get along with people that play tf2 its not all that bad to agree that tf2 isint that bad of a mod or game whatever the fuck it is.
Don't know what else to tell you, we(I'm) aren't hating you either but was a bit confused because you seem to be the only person that understood Iggy's reply as a hate message?
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Old 05-29-2009, 12:37 AM   #11
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have you even read this thread? did you read what TFCFan said in his post?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TFCFan
Will probably get burned a bit more for bringing in TF2, but hey, there's no denying the models/teams are easily indentifable
this is what he said, after pointing out that the TF2 class models are much more easily distinguishable than the FF class models, a fact that i dont think anyone with eyes would dispute. He was afraid that he would get flamed just for bringing up TF2, and iggy replied with

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy
My friend, you are not bringing up TF2 to make comparisons and put FF down.... so no one should hate on you.
meaning that since he came on here and wasnt saying "FF sux TF2 is better" that no one would flame him, because we dont give people crap just for bringing up TF2. we give people who come on here saying "FF sux TF2 is better" mounds and mounds of crap, but a mere comparison (especially one as valid as TFCFan's) does not warrant a flamewar. so your statement claiming that anyone bringing up TF2 around here gets flamed relentlessly is full of shit.

also, what goes on in the servers is not something we have control over. the people you are hearing there are fans of FF, not the devs. i dont think there are any FF devs that talk shit about TF2 or hate on valve relentlessly. fans playing in the server might, or perhaps some community members around here might say a few things, but they are not the FF devs. in fact, the only real bitching about TF2 i see going on anymore is from TF2 fans that are unhappy with the recent changes.

TF2 and FF are both games made to be sequels of TFC, a game which had a very large and very loyal fanbase. it is inevitable that the two games will be compared, as it is inevitable that there will be devout fans of either game who completely loathe the other game and bash it every chance they get on an internet forum. thats just the internet. but, dont come on here telling the devs to stop the "war on valve," because that is just preposterous. there is no war going on between FF devs and valve. at all.

anywho... this was a very good thread with some excellent comments by a newcomer to FF, theres no need to be shitting on it. the only overreaction in this thread has been from you, molester. and now from me for even bother to respond to this poppycock! good day to you, sir!

EDIT: OH WHAT THE FUCK, ZIP?! you quick-typin bastard!
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Old 05-29-2009, 12:38 AM   #12
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No no I totaly understand what iggy ment I guess I got off topic a little but I do see alot of tf2 bashing going on if you dont i guess you'er lucky.
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Old 05-29-2009, 12:40 AM   #13
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You guys bitch all the time about tf2 and valve.
Who are "you guys"? Nobody in this thread has said anything bad about TF2. Save this rant for when it's relevant. As for the attitudes you encounter here or in servers, maybe you should pay more attention to who says what. Because we devs aren't "at war" with TF2. Don't think that anyone who badmouths TF2 is doing FF a favor.
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Old 05-29-2009, 12:45 AM   #14
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whatever you say..
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Old 05-29-2009, 03:01 AM   #15
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whatever you say..
http://www.answers.com/relevance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relevance

Since you don't seem to get why people are replying to you like they are.
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Old 05-29-2009, 05:47 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [AE] 82694 View Post


Quote:
Whenever anyone mentions tf2 its always "this isint the forum to discuss tf2" or something like that like its some disease.
When they just bash FF and do no constructive criticism it isn't. TFCFan did a very good job of posting and nobody said differnt or made a stink until you showed up.

+1 to TFCFan's long ass essay, which I read and +1 for 82
I enjoyed reading this thread, but now.. it went down hill

I officially feel like BURNT Fried Ricey
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Old 05-29-2009, 09:13 AM   #17
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cheers for your thoughts, TFCFan. pretty much confirms the things we know need doing and the direction we're [slowly but surely!] moving in. it's a shame progress is sometimes slow when you don't have a team of ppl working on it as their full-time job, but the advantage of that is we don't have the restrictions of a finite budget/timeframe/scope that commercial games do, so i'm sure we'll get there in the end

and cheers for a good lol, molester and friends. i don't see why anyone sensible would get upset at someone just for talking about another game (cod4, wow, tf2, whatever). but it isn't v helpful going onto a car racing forum and saying "golf is so much better than car racing, just give up guys and go play golf", which is what happens on many INTERNET111 forums (and used to happen here quite often with rather ignorant TF2/FF "comparissons", which really just show that the person don't understand FF or TF2. they are such completely different games, and i personally have nothing against TF2 (i used to clan in TF2 a lot and i tried my best to like it, but it's just not my thing at all for what i want from a competitive game) just like i have nothing against wow or cod4 or fallout3 or whatever.
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Old 05-29-2009, 09:47 PM   #18
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No no I totaly understand what iggy ment I guess I got off topic a little but I do see alot of tf2 bashing going on if you dont i guess you'er lucky.
As has been said, if you hear it on servers(unless it's an official server and an admin is on in which case said admin can put a stop to it).... it's beyond the control of the Devs/Testers/Supporters of FF.

I played TF2 a week or so ago, and had a fairly enjoyable experience with it(for a change)... But it's a much different game than FF. FF is comparable to TFC on steroids.... but trying to compare TF2 to FF just doesn't work. It's kinda like comparing Heavy Metal to Easy Listening. Some people like one or the other, some like both. It's a matter of personal preference. TFCFan opened up a nice conversation about FF, and used a clip of TF2 to make a point. He didn't use it to bash FF, or TF2, or anything, really.

You won't find much TF2 bashing on here.... we try to nip that kinda crap in the bud IF it happens.
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