are you still playing FF?

[Dexter]

experimental gimmicks huh

[Icculus]

I play for a while, get bored and take a month off then come back. Lately i've been playing again but the player base has really gone down since the last time I was active.

We need Stray Kitten to stop playing TF2 and come back to FF!... And that one chick from Sweden.. Caroline? Something like that... She always drew a crowd.

-Icculus

[Iggy]

There are no women on the internet. They aren't allowed. You're lusting after a 50 year old person with a beard and a man-package.

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by Dexter

experimental gimmicks huh

I realized I should have said something different after the fact. "For reasons I still don't understand" is more accurate. I've had difficulty getting a straight answer out of any of the devs as to why O received such a boost in the 2.x patches and D was crippled so much (Crazycarl and Elmo are they only people I know who have given me a straight answer on this topic, and they weren't sure of the answer).

Here are reasons I've heard from different people. I don't believe all of them, but I really have no idea what goes on behind the scenes on the dev end. You're a dev, you tell me which ones are right or wrong:


-Changes were to better balance pickup games (which typically consists of just scouts and medics on O)

-Changes were because devs or favorited people whom they listen to personally favor O classes and wanted an easier time with them.

-Changes were added because they would in theory draw in new players because it meant people could cap faster, so it's more of an instant-gratification experience.

-Many changes are added almost randomly and are dependent on what people feel like coding and think is fun at the time without really factoring in pub AvD gameplay too much.


The latter explanation is why I said experimental gimmicks, since I assumed it was the most likely.

The bottom line is AvD gameplay has gotten shafted, it was completely preventable and the results of the changes were very foreseeable (I have pre-2.0 posts pointing out the problems the proposed changes meant for AvD). The fact that this has gone patch after patch over a series of YEARS practically unaddressed and that it's only relatively recently that the dev team has even acknowledged there's a problem here leaves me mystified as to what the reason for this is.

Or hell, set the record straight. You tell me. What was the reasoning for increasing speeds, giving O major new movement capabilities, buffing spies, while simultaneously crippling sg push, lowering its health (despite lack of splash protection), and later nerfing the hwguy as well? The original changes were so O-centric, any longtime AvD player could have told you this would lead to problems, but it went forward anyway. So what was the reasoning behind all this if they WEREN'T just experimental gimmicks?

[Raynian]

Oh, another problem with FF are the hackers. A lot of people refuse to believe that there could possibly be hackers in FF, but there are plenty. They need to be banned.

Some admins are clueless, I swear.

[Dexter]

Originally Posted by Raynian

Oh, another problem with FF are the hackers. A lot of people refuse to believe that there could possibly be hackers in FF, but there are plenty. They need to be banned.

Some admins are clueless, I swear.

I've never seen one! I've seen some videos on youtube of a guy shitting up the TALOS server but that was quite a while ago. When was the last time you saw one? it's certainly not a common issue. I think they all got bored and moved on or something (just like the normal playerbase, RITE?)

[Dexter]

Ahh so thats what you meant by experimental, I follow now.
chilledsanity, I think the biggest reasons are probably the third and fourth reason you listed. I'm really not sure how it all snuck together. I didnt play any role in it and didnt really pay attention to it as I was on hiatus for a while though.

Personally, I don't like where the strong O and raped defense gameplay is either. I really miss interesting AVD, too! If you can believe that!

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by Dexter

Ahh so thats what you meant by experimental, I follow now.
chilledsanity, I think the biggest reasons are probably the third and fourth reason you listed. I'm really not sure how it all snuck together. I didnt play any role in it and didnt really pay attention to it as I was on hiatus for a while though.

Personally, I don't like where the strong O and raped defense gameplay is either. I really miss interesting AVD, too! If you can believe that!

Yeah I think the 3rd and 4th reasons are the most likely as well. I think that the changes favor pickup games a little more is probably a coincidence. I don't think the FF team was actively TRYING to ruin AvD, but I do think there was lack of foresight on someone's part. Not saying you, but it had to be multiple people in order for this to happen and stay that way.

Also I'm not against new features / gimmicks, it's the lopsidedness that I haven't liked. Jump pads and pyro jumps are neat gimmicks and I think they're fine as long as they have solid counters. The question I always asked in pre-2.0 was how was Defense supposed to counter these? The answer I always got back was "skill." I was expecting some balance on 2.1 to counteract some of the new shortcomings for D. Instead, sg push was removed, amplifying the problems even moreso. I consider this the real turning point for losing faith in the devs to fix the game balance. Not saying it's impossible, just that I think this at least part of what drove off some players.

And yeah, I don't like seeing either side having a big advantage, the best games are the ones that come down right to the clock. In general though, I've almost never seen D have an actual ADVANTAGE. Here's my entire list of areas I think D actually was a little too powerful in the past:

-hwguy in 1.0 was maybe just a tad too powerful
-hwguy in 2.1 was maybe a tad too effective at long range (but not mid and short)
-I could see where infinite sg lock on older versions could be annoying.
-basicbowl is outright punitive for O on the final cap

That's it. Any buff D gets at this point it probably needs badly and has for years.

[zE]

Originally Posted by Dexter

I've never seen one! I've seen some videos on youtube of a guy shitting up the TALOS server but that was quite a while ago. When was the last time you saw one? it's certainly not a common issue. I think they all got bored and moved on or something (just like the normal playerbase, RITE?)

No, there are several haxors in FF, just speced 1 pickup last night, and was obvious that Leadmine used Wall hack,he was tracking dudes at long distances behind walls before, trowing grenades at the exact moment dudes show up, firing to the exact place where the dude showed up before even he show up in his screen and not once was always. And he kinda sucks imagine a leet player with that = pwnage..

My problem with haxors, is that it feels that they are allowed in pickups for some reason, no admin there does any effort to chek if a specific dude is a haxor or not and ban him based on demos or whatever. And the dangerous part is the pub scene in ff is dyng, the pickups filled with haxors will kill it sooner or later too.. at least i cba to add to play vs dudes that have a 60% advantage over me, and btw theres wall hackers in pubs too, im pretty sure moone can backup what im sayng-

[Bridget]

Most of these pro players are all TFC hackers. Some of them are even listed on banlists on the same website they used to host that one Fortress Forever league they had going at one time. That's fucking hilarious. That's why I laugh at them when they try to use their supposed skills in a video game as a form of merit.

[Dexter]

Originally Posted by Bridget

Most of these pro players are all TFC hackers. Some of them are even listed on banlists on the same website they used to host that one Fortress Forever league they had going at one time. That's fucking hilarious. That's why I laugh at them when they try to use their supposed skills in a video game as a form of merit.

yup, all of them

[Ricey]

Originally Posted by Dexter

yup, all of them

Yea, so cake hacked, elwood hacked, therape hacked, dr.sexp hacked, ruggcutter hacked, yea, all of them.

lawl.

[Iggy]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

pyro jumps are neat gimmicks and I think they're fine as long as they have solid counters.

Best counter to a Pyro's floating around like he has a jetpack, is a Sniper. They are pretty damned vulnerable while floating there unable to shoot back.

[Carrots]

2.42... i really hope that is a joke

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by Carrots

2.42... i really hope that is a joke

Got you!

Wait... what?

[GenghisTron]

Hey Carrots, don't you and your retarded brother have some walls to bang your heads against?

[Bomber]

Originally Posted by Bridget

Most of these pro players are all TFC hackers. Some of them are even listed on banlists on the same website they used to host that one Fortress Forever league they had going at one time. That's fucking hilarious. That's why I laugh at them when they try to use their supposed skills in a video game as a form of merit.

most of them have just played ff since it came out and you can't accept they own your ass. they have played tfc probably since close its beginging, and hacked prolly when it got boring, perfect player was a good hack so you could bunnyhop and shit in tfc.

if you want to see if you really are as good as them mulch them and you will see.

[GenghisTron]

Originally Posted by Bomber

most of them have just played ff since it came out and you can't accept they own your ass. they have played tfc probably since close its beginging, and hacked prolly when it got boring, perfect player was a good hack so you could bunnyhop and shit in tfc.

if you want to see if you really are as good as them mulch them and you will see.

You're so smart, you have everything and everyone figured out.

[Bridget]

Originally Posted by Bomber

most of them have just played ff since it came out and you can't accept they own your ass. they have played tfc probably since close its beginging, and hacked prolly when it got boring, perfect player was a good hack so you could bunnyhop and shit in tfc.

if you want to see if you really are as good as them mulch them and you will see.

"Excuse me, officer, I am an innocent man. You see, I raped that young lady because I was bored. That makes it alright. Huh? What logic am I using? Oh, just some logic prescribed to me by some retard on a video game forum. What do you mean it doesn't make sense? D'ooooh! I am so mad right now!"

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by Bridget

"Excuse me, officer, I am an innocent man. You see, I raped that young lady because I was bored. That makes it alright. Huh? What logic am I using?

That would be the Special Pleading logical fallacy!

http://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...-pleading.html

Thanks Bridget, I had to look that one up.