Take out sniper class

[Bridget]

HA HA.

[Ventry(Leo Wainker)]

Originally Posted by Bridget

FF is shit

Originally Posted by Bridget

FF is dead

If you really believe those words then you are only here to troll.

Originally Posted by Bridget

Every Sniper debate equally comes with people who play the terrible class defending it with ad-hominem attacks like Ventry here who couldn't connect the dots on a two-dot puzzle let alone produce a legitimate argument.

I play the mod (unlike you).
I played last night and got shot by snipers time and time again but, i didn't cry and whine about it like you. I adjusted and overcame.
Sure it gets annoying sometimes when the sniper is a skilled one but, no more annoying than a good soldier that blocks nearly every attack or a good scout/medic/spy who gets past sentry's and other defense with ease. Once again: i adapt and overcome. You want to remove the sniper because you want a easy way out.

The only map which your argument even slightly makes sense to me is "Aardvark". ONE MAP! So, they should remove an entire class because Bridget can't get past snipers on "Aardvark"?
Poor petal.

I must have played more than a dozen maps over the weekend on the OT server and I can't recall one person bitchin' about snipers. I played sniper on two maps. Otherwise I played demo or engy.

We've heard your argument a million times already. BORING.
The only reason "you mad" is because very few people who actually play care for your opinion.
Get over yourself. Your opinion is not that important.

If FF is as dead and shit as you claim then leave.
Otherwise you are nothing more than a shit stirring troll and a hypocrite.

[Skillet]

Bridget can you please come play pickups with us in ff.pickup you seem like a really nice guy and knowledgeable about the game.

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by Ventry(Leo Wainker)

The only map which your argument even slightly makes sense to me is "Aardvark". ONE MAP! So, they should remove an entire class because Bridget can't get past snipers on "Aardvark"?

Well on other maps typically the way to avoid snipers is a pain in the ass and takes 3 times longer to get to the objective. You can swim in the canal on well, monkey, 2fort, dropdown, take the tunnels in shutdown2 and congestus, etc.

I think the point here is that the class as it is doesn't make the game more fun and the sniper doesn't serve much of a function for CTF. Correct me if I'm wrong, but those side routes are intended as lesser patrolled routes that give the players a better chance of infiltrating unnoticed or a flag carrier wanting a less conventional route to escape. If a sniper is so good that those become the MAIN ways in, I don't think that helps the game much.

Originally Posted by Ventry(Leo Wainker)

I must have played more than a dozen maps over the weekend on the OT server and I can't recall one person bitchin' about snipers. I played sniper on two maps. Otherwise I played demo or engy.

I've very rarely seen anyone complain about a good sniper in-game (unless it's a hacking accusation). However, if a sniper is so good he has anyone in the yard dead to rights, I have noticed playercount to start dropping off the longer it's kept up and/or getting players that completely ignore the objective and make it their sole goal to kill said sniper over and over again. That IS one way to adapt and overcome, but I'm not sure what it contributes to the game.

Anyway, I'm pretty neutral on sniper actually since I mainly played AvD and he's never been a game breaker there. On the contrary, I think he's become far less significant in FF there. I remember plenty of dustbowl games on TFC where a sniper taking out a sentry or two was the way to finally topple an otherwise solid defense.

[Ventry(Leo Wainker)]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

Well on other maps typically the way to avoid snipers is a pain in the ass and takes 3 times longer to get to the objective. You can swim in the canal on well, monkey, 2fort, dropdown, take the tunnels in shutdown2 and congestus, etc.

Pain in the ass doesn't mean wrong.
In all those map there are plenty of captures made and I mean plenty so, just what real problem is a sniper to get past? Sure he'll stop some attack runs for some players but, even if he/she's good can't and doesn't stop them all.

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

I think the point here is that the class as it is doesn't make the game more fun and the sniper doesn't serve much of a function for CTF. Correct me if I'm wrong, but those side routes are intended as lesser patrolled routes that give the players a better chance of infiltrating unnoticed or a flag carrier wanting a less conventional route to escape. If a sniper is so good that those become the MAIN ways in, I don't think that helps the game much.

As far as I've seen this isn't anywhere near the problem Bridget has made it out to be. As I said plenty of captures are made on all of the aforesaid maps. Both primary and secondary routes.
Fun is also an individual taste. what is fun for me is not fun for you or Bridget or whoever. What is fun for you is not necessarily fun for me.

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

I've very rarely seen anyone complain about a good sniper in-game (unless it's a hacking accusation). However, if a sniper is so good he has anyone in the yard dead to rights, I have noticed playercount to start dropping off the longer it's kept up and/or getting players that completely ignore the objective and make it their sole goal to kill said sniper over and over again. That IS one way to adapt and overcome, but I'm not sure what it contributes to the game.

The only player that I have seen that can snipe to the effect you describe is "the King" but, even then opposing teams still manage to capture so even he can be gotten past.
Snipers like him are rare.
If a player chooses to chase a sniper and not the flag then the sniper wins for his team. One less player attacking or defending. It's not the sniper who's "stupid" then. It's the player having a "sniper tantrum".

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

Anyway, I'm pretty neutral on sniper actually since I mainly played AvD and he's never been a game breaker there. On the contrary, I think he's become far less significant in FF there. I remember plenty of dustbowl games on TFC where a sniper taking out a sentry or two was the way to finally topple an otherwise solid defense.

Would still be if sentries were more dangerous.

Originally Posted by Skillet

Bridget can you please come play pickups with us in ff.pickup you seem like a really nice guy and knowledgeable about the game.

In fact that is a great idea as then pickup servers can leave out snipers in the server settings and you can play sniper free and Bridget can stop trying to ruin the fun for the pub players who don't agree with his "take" on the subject.
Bridget is like the FF Grinch.

[CHURCHMOUTH]

if bridget played some pickups then the ff team would have to tweak all classes not just sniper

[Raynian]

BASE RULE FOR GOOD GAME DEVELOPMENT

Fun must exceed Anti-fun

Snipers get a thrill for half a second when they get a kill, then lather rinse repeat ad nauseum.

Anyone else gets pissed off because they just got sniped the fifth time in a row when all they're trying to do is get through the yard.

Snipers break this rule.

That is as basic as I can put it for you people so please jesus christ what is wrong with you can't you just fucking understand aghaghag

[GenghisTron]

Originally Posted by Raynian

BASE RULE FOR GOOD GAME DEVELOPMENT

Fun must exceed Anti-fun

Snipers get a thrill for half a second when they get a kill, then lather rinse repeat ad nauseum.

Anyone else gets pissed off because they just got sniped the fifth time in a row when all they're trying to do is get through the yard.

Snipers break this rule.

That is as basic as I can put it for you people so please jesus christ what is wrong with you can't you just fucking understand aghaghag

i like dis

[Bridget]

The only people who argue against my point are Snipers. Don't take them seriously. They can't even play the game with any ounce of decency, so why except them to be intellectually honest? They have to be enjoying some hardcore delusion and conviction to ignore the basic fact that one long range class in a game full of close range classes results in an inherent disadvantage for said close range classes considering almost every map spawns the teams apart. It then doesn't help that this faggot class' means of interacting is via hitscan, charges up to shots capable of killing people in one hit, has a scope to make the target's easier to hit, gets a built-in wallhack for enemies who luck out and make it past him, and can cripple and slow already slow classes. Laffo

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by Ventry(Leo Wainker)

] Pain in the ass doesn't mean wrong. In all those map there are plenty of captures made and I mean plenty so, just what real problem is a sniper to get past?

Well the problem is it makes the game less fun. I'm not saying this happens all the time, but when it does, it makes enough players want to leave or stop playing. I mean in the scenario where you have an excellent sniper tying things down, your options for O amount to:

1. Go into the yard and die
2. Spend about 3 minutes of non-combat just running or swimming on a roundabout route, before you get some brief moments of actual gameplay

Meanwhile the rest of D sniper-side is wondering where the hell all the players are.

Originally Posted by Ventry(Leo Wainker)

As far as I've seen this isn't anywhere near the problem Bridget has made it out to be. As I said plenty of captures are made on all of the aforesaid maps. Both primary and secondary routes. Fun is also an individual taste. what is fun for me is not fun for you or Bridget or whoever. What is fun for you is not necessarily fun for me.

I may not have played enough CTF to gauge it accurately, but it's happened enough times from me playing randomly that it's been pretty obvious that it's present. Bridget may be exaggerrating, I haven't read all his posts from those threads, but it's real enough that I've witnessed several times just playing at random. Doesn't happen all the time, but it can reduce playercount when it does.

And yes, everyone's sense of fun varies. I can understand people appreciating a challenge. I've played many games that are very hard. The difference is I'd wager most people don't consider "crossing the yard" the primary challenge to FF. Or if that is the main challenge, it's not the one the majority of people want. If that was really the case, you would have fortress points just for making it to the other side.

Originally Posted by Ventry(Leo Wainker)

The only player that I have seen that can snipe to the effect you describe is "the King" but, even then opposing teams still manage to capture so even he can be gotten past.
Snipers like him are rare.

Well typically it's not just one sniper in those situations, it's a few. So if one misses, the next one is also trying.

Originally Posted by Ventry(Leo Wainker)

If a player chooses to chase a sniper and not the flag then the sniper wins for his team. One less player attacking or defending. It's not the sniper who's "stupid" then. It's the player having a "sniper tantrum".

I never implied the sniper was stupid. The sniper's simply playing a class, I don't see the problem lying in the player. People are naturally going to use classes to the fullest of their abilities. I was mainly saying there's not a lot to defend about the class in CTF beyond the appeal to tradition. Also calling someone who's been provoked into a sniper rage a win is a Pyrrhic victory. If it's considered success to actually rage people to make them less productive for the team, well, enjoy your game.

[Ventry(Leo Wainker)]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

Also calling someone who's been provoked into a sniper rage a win is a Pyrrhic victory. If it's considered success to actually rage people to make them less productive for the team, well, enjoy your game.

It's not about "causing" a "rage".
I've seen Demomen who are so good at piping the flag that the attacking scouts and medics have been forced to attack the demo rather than the flag. How is this any different to having to chase a sniper?
The scouts and medics are just as frustrated would that also be considered "rage"? Or does this only apply to the sniper?

@ Bridget
I'm laying a challenge at your feet.
Get stuck into your buddies in Talos. Particularly whoever owns the servers.
Get them to take out the sniper using server settings and see how it goes.
If the server has a great increase in usage then I will be happy to say you were right in these very forums.
If the experiment fails then you STFU.
Balls in your court dude.
However I can already smell the excuses for why this won't happen.

BTW: after re-reading all your arguments I realized there exists a game which fulfills nearly all your requirements.
It's called Team Fortress 2.
You should go play that.

[Bridget]

Originally Posted by Ventry(Leo Wainker)

It's not about "causing" a "rage".
I've seen Demomen who are so good at piping the flag that the attacking scouts and medics have been forced to attack the demo rather than the flag. How is this any different to having to chase a sniper?
The scouts and medics are just as frustrated would that also be considered "rage"? Or does this only apply to the sniper?

God, what a -stupid- example. The players in your example attacking the Demoman do so because they are actually playing the game and he poses a fair challenge to them obtaining the flag. Players who go out of their way to keep a Sniper pinned in his spawn are not playing the game and are resorting to such because the class contributes nothing to this game except rage and distraction. Again, stupid example. These stupid examples plagued the other thread too. They're nothing but strawman encouraged by your ignorance.

If the Scouts and Medics rage, as they are capable of doing, then so fucking what? The Demoman is doing a better job at defending than they are doing at attacking. They are well within potential to interact with him, they just don't do better than he does at such. Getting shot coming out of your spawn or while mulching someone a long distance away by some shitty pub player who needs long-range hitscan and its resulting safety to actually kill someone will result in similar rage, but it's justified as it is a response to something broken.

Originally Posted by Ventry(Leo Wainker)

@ Bridget
I'm laying a challenge at your feet.
Get stuck into your buddies in Talos. Particularly whoever owns the servers.
Get them to take out the sniper using server settings and see how it goes.
If the server has a great increase in usage then I will be happy to say you were right in these very forums.
If the experiment fails then you STFU.
Balls in your court dude.
However I can already smell the excuses for why this won't happen.

You're dumb. That challenge would be worthy of something if the community had more than thirty players, in which an increase in players would be noticeable. Let's not forget the large amount of scrub snipers that would leave as a result, which would then create a huge obligation to earn back that number of players before you would even consider increases. Also, regardless of the outcome, that says nothing at all about whether or not Sniper belongs or not. There are dozens of things that rage people that are objectively fair, that if were removed in an ideal circumstance, would result in more people being drawn to whatever context it was removed from. Would that then show it was actually objectively unfair? Not necessarilly. You prove something entirely different, actually. You prove that people prefer x or y, not whether x or y is actually fair or unfair. So in short, your challenge would prove jack shit, and is nothing more than a red herring argument. Get fucked.

Originally Posted by Ventry(Leo Wainker)

BTW: after re-reading all your arguments I realized there exists a game which fulfills nearly all your requirements.
It's called Team Fortress 2.
You should go play that.

I do play Team Fortress 2. Is that supposed to be an insult or something? You're dumb.

[moosh]

Originally Posted by Bridget

I do play Team Fortress 2. Is that supposed to be an insult or something? You're dumb.

Why play FF when TF2 meets all of your requirements? Why keep saying "FF IS SHIT LET IT DIE" and keep making suggestions on how to change it?


WHY THE FUCK DO YOU BOTHER TO POST IF THIS JUST ISN'T YOUR GAME?

i honestly don't get it.


edit: Do you even play FF?

[Bridget]

Originally Posted by moosh

Why play FF when TF2 meets all of your requirements? Why keep saying "FF IS SHIT LET IT DIE" and keep making suggestions on how to change it?

When I suggest the latter, it's not a forceful comment. By that, I mean, I'm not wishing that FF were shit nor that it died. I'm just pointing out the obvious. I don't like that obvious, so I seek to stay around and try to contribute to bringing Fortress Forever back from the dead and making it less of a demand for beginners, who are going to constitute the game if it were to ever get popular.

"Let it die." is more a 'give-up' comment. Patches are released once a year, they sometimes create more problems than they fix, and so on. Now that I've been on the beta team and seen some of the inside work, it's even more depressing. Things are getting done, sure, but how long is it going to take before they're actually in the game for the public? How long is the Engineer's stuff going to sit untouched as it has been for the past six or seven months while the dev team lies through their teeth that it's being worked on? At this point, it feels futile trying, so I just give up and say "let it die" even though I don't want it to die.

Originally Posted by moosh

WHY THE FUCK DO YOU BOTHER TO POST IF THIS JUST ISN'T YOUR GAME?

I never said that.

Originally Posted by moosh

edit: Do you even play FF?

I can't due to DirectX problems. The Talos server enforces a mat_dxlevel of 80 because mat_dxlevel enables players to see through some dynamic props, which could be considered cheating. Well, anything over mat_dxlevel 70 in Fortress Forever crashes my computer ten minutes or so in.

Besides, the argument that I can't voice my opinion because I don't actively play Fortress Forever is a bullshit argument. I have enough experience under my belt from having no-lifed Fortress Forever all-day every-day for a year or two before all these hardware inconveniences started showing up.

[Everything]

Originally Posted by moosh

Why play FF when TF2 meets all of your requirements? Why keep saying "FF IS SHIT LET IT DIE" and keep making suggestions on how to change it?


WHY THE FUCK DO YOU BOTHER TO POST IF THIS JUST ISN'T YOUR GAME?

i honestly don't get it.


edit: Do you even play FF?

because umad

[Bridget]

YouTube

YouTube

[Ventry(Leo Wainker)]

Originally Posted by moosh

WHY THE FUCK DO YOU BOTHER TO POST IF THIS JUST ISN'T YOUR GAME?

It's because he's a petulant child and a troll.

He either gets his way or he will (has) throw forum tantrums.

[Skillet]

Originally Posted by Ventry(Leo Wainker)

It's because he's a petulant child and a troll.

He either gets his way or he will (has) throw forum tantrums.

From what I've seen Bridget brings up real issues many in the community dont want to deal with. Bridget is like a civil servant to FF, you should thank him for caring so much, instead you ridicule him and you wonder why there arnt more players.

[CHURCHMOUTH]

skillet u need to rethink that last post. he does not play the game PERIOD

[WiFiDi]

Originally Posted by Skillet

From what I've seen Bridget brings up real issues many in the community dont want to deal with. Bridget is like a civil servant to FF, you should thank him for caring so much, instead you ridicule him and you wonder why there arnt more players.

yea he doesn't exactly play the mod however his points are most of the time pretty valid especially knowing what needs to change however i don't agree with all of his solutions i most of time agree there is a problem.

he is not god by the way.