2.42 Teaser

[Sh4x]

Originally Posted by Elmo

oh hai! While your here.. have you still got any old FF source files we might need to have for any reason?

Actually that reminds me. Did you ever work on shutdown2 in any way? We need a lights.rad file that was used when it was last compiled. We can't correct any lighting errors because it compiles looking competely different to what it currently does

Nope, sorry. I think I pretty much wiped out all the source files I had. It seems like I even lost some of my personal stuff I was working on which kinda sucks.

[chilledsanity]

I have a couple quick questions about the changes, sorry if they've been answered elsewhere already:

-What's the time duration of the slowing fields?


Hwguy's repulsor move:

-How many times can it be activated (once per life? infinitely? ammo based?)?

-If it can be activated multiple times per life, what is the cooldown between firing?

-Can it be activated instantly or does it have to charge up first?

-Does it have a significantly different effect between aerial players and grounded ones?

[Crazycarl]

slowfield duration is 6 seconds, radius is 176.

"overpressure" can be activated instantly with the +special key, and takes 6 seconds to recharge. Grounded players lose friction for 1 second when they are hit, but they are affected a little less. The radius is 128 but we might increase it before release.

I think faster-moving players are affected more than slower ones, but I'm not sure.

By the way all the ffdev variables will be available with sv_cheats enabled, so you'll be able to mess with these values yourself if you want.

[chilledsanity]

Well I'm skeptical that the slowing field will make much of a difference the way it's implemented. It seems like it should either last longer, slow down more, or else not have a primer. Otherwise it seems pretty sloppy to use effectively. Say you're in a flag room and see a scout fly in. He could conceivably be in and out before it goes off, and even if you do completely nail him, it doesn't slow him down THAT much. Judging from the video, it slows him down literally about 1 second, especially since he maintains his inertia. In theory, the slowing field seems like the obvious counter to the jump pad, what's the problem with making it last a similar duration as that?

The overpressure on the other hand sounds badass, this could really turn hwguy into a better defender.

[Ricey]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

Well I'm skeptical that the slowing field will make much of a difference the way it's implemented. It seems like it should either last longer, slow down more, or else not have a primer. Otherwise it seems pretty sloppy to use effectively. Say you're in a flag room and see a scout fly in. He could conceivably be in and out before it goes off, and even if you do completely nail him, it doesn't slow him down THAT much. Judging from the video, it slows him down literally about 1 second, especially since he maintains his inertia. In theory, the slowing field seems like the obvious counter to the jump pad, what's the problem with making it last a similar duration as that?

The overpressure on the other hand sounds badass, this could really turn hwguy into a better defender.

Before you even try to discuss the slowfield in full, and before any theorys, play the HW in 2.42, then come back.

[Elmo]

Originally Posted by Crazycarl

slowfield duration is 6 seconds, radius is 176.

I'd like at least 182 radius. And many have said they'd like it to last longer (even just up to 7 seconds). I believe both should be done to improve it's usefulness.

Originally Posted by Crazycarl

"overpressure" can be activated instantly with the +special key, and takes 6 seconds to recharge. Grounded players lose friction for 1 second when they are hit, but they are affected a little less. The radius is 128 but we might increase it before release.

Again I wanted a slightly larger radius for this too (~136). However I have a feeling it doesn't work well with lag and want to look into that which might mean a larger radius isn't necessary.

Originally Posted by Crazycarl

By the way all the ffdev variables will be available with sv_cheats enabled, so you'll be able to mess with these values yourself if you want.

This I'm glad about!!

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

Well I'm skeptical that the slowing field will make much of a difference the way it's implemented. It seems like it should either last longer, slow down more, or else not have a primer. Otherwise it seems pretty sloppy to use effectively. Say you're in a flag room and see a scout fly in. He could conceivably be in and out before it goes off, and even if you do completely nail him, it doesn't slow him down THAT much.

This, I feel, is a generally massive problem with gren timers in FF. It points out that VERY RARELY will a grenade prove useful if you prime it when you actually need it. Which is why everyone primes early and why we get spam. If you could use them as you need them I think the grenades would be used in a much more effective manner.

But what's your thoughts on halving gren timers chilledsanity? It's not even been tried in beta so I'm not sure how it'd work out - but I know at least one other developer feels as I do.

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

Judging from the video, it slows him down literally about 1 second, especially since he maintains his inertia. In theory, the slowing field seems like the obvious counter to the jump pad, what's the problem with making it last a similar duration as that?

Well as you know (I presume) jump pads are now destroyable but last indefinitely. But I get what you're saying, I'm not convinced by slowgrens as they are to be honest. Concept yes but I think we need to do something. At the very least I want a larger radius which will, in turn, increase the time anyone caught inside is slowed.

[episkopos]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

Well I'm skeptical that the slowing field will make much of a difference the way it's implemented. It seems like it should either last longer, slow down more, or else not have a primer. Otherwise it seems pretty sloppy to use effectively. Say you're in a flag room and see a scout fly in. He could conceivably be in and out before it goes off, and even if you do completely nail him, it doesn't slow him down THAT much. Judging from the video, it slows him down literally about 1 second, especially since he maintains his inertia. In theory, the slowing field seems like the obvious counter to the jump pad, what's the problem with making it last a similar duration as that?

Knowing when to start priming is a key skill for all grenades, why should this one have that aspect removed? (Though I agree with Elmo's point about the possibility of reducing priming time). Besides, in a game as fast as FF, six seconds is quite a while. And unlike the 2.1 sentry push changes, these things have been tested and found to work pretty well: don't knock it until you've tried it.

[chilledsanity]

EDIT:

***
I just realized since these are specialty grenades, the majority of the time in AvD I won't have access to them anyway, so the discussion about them for me is kind of moot point. This further makes me wish they were deployables so they could be used in more situations by D, but oh well.

***

Originally Posted by Ricey

Before you even try to discuss the slowfield in full, and before any theorys, play the HW in 2.42, then come back.

You're right. Rather than discuss potentially obvious shortcomings now when values can be more easily tweaked before release, WAIT to discuss them AFTERWARDS, so there can be a 1-2 year delay for the next patch to address the issue.

Also my use of "In theory" in that sentence could be swapped "using common fucking sense." The jump pad gave O a clear advantage being able to ferry players to the front lines faster. Gee, does a mechanism for D that slows them back down sound like a natural counter to you?

Originally Posted by elmo

But what's your thoughts on halving gren timers chilledsanity?

I think they encourage spam, but real grenades work the same way. In general I don't really care either way, what bothers me more is the limp-wristed nature of grenades in FF, but I always assumed that was a value that was sacred and would never be changed.

Originally Posted by elmo

Well as you know (I presume) jump pads are now destroyable but last indefinitely.

I forgot about that completely actually. I'm not sure what the problem would be with making the slow fields the same way. Indefinite, but require some sort of explosion (even a conc) to disrupt it.

Originally Posted by episkopos

Knowing when to start priming is a key skill for all grenades, why should this one have that aspect removed?

Well first off, I think it would work better as a deployable than a grenade, but it's already been made this way. Second, I wasn't saying that it should be removed, only that's one possible way of making it more effective. I'd rather just see a longer duration. As for why, the main reason is that this thing is IDEAL for protecting the flag, and adding some real control for D whereas other grenades are more for killing or just annoying other players. Secondly, it's a non-lethal trap that has a shorter duration than any other one. Take some other less-lethal effects:

-Spy gas: lasts 10 seconds and affects the player for 10 seconds
-Concs: primed deployment, no duration, but knocks the player away and disorients for about 10 seconds
-Caltrop: instant deployment, not sure of the lasting time, but long, lasts rest of player's life.

This has primed deployment, lasts 6 seconds, and slows a speeding scout for about 1 second. The risk of running through it seems low compared other control-based grenades. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's worthless. It just sounds a little inadequate compared to other control-based grenades, especially when you consider this is replacing a mirv.

Also "the don't knock it before you try it" is kind of a cop-out without explaining WHY these values were decided on. Like what happened with a longer duration? I intend to try it, afterall, I said I was SKEPTICAL and explained why, not "this sucks and I'll hate it," although for some people, I'm not sure they understand the difference between the two concepts.

[Hammock]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

EDIT:

-Caltrop: instant deployment, not sure of the lasting time, but long, lasts rest of player's life.

Actually caltrops weren't instant deployment in FF, they came in a stupid capsul that once you threw then released from the capsul.

TFC's caltrops were way cooler, instantly coming out from the scout, in FF they were easily avoidable.

As for the slowing field, in CTF I never really saw it stopping an incoming enemy, so much as slowing down an outgoing enemy. It's very difficult to time a nade for an incoming enemy perfectly. And the timing is different per offensive player to boot! But once you see an incoming enemy it's much easier to time a nade to prevent him from escaping.

Problem is, that doens't help AvD at all, since the whole point is to stop the incoming guy, not an outgoing guy.

But it could definately be usefull, that coupled with the overpressure ability (what i'm looking forward to most) will most definately change the HW mechanics, and to me seems to give him more viability in more situations.

[Crazycarl]

Say you're in a flag room and see a scout fly in. He could conceivably be in and out before it goes off, and even if you do completely nail him, it doesn't slow him down THAT much. Judging from the video, it slows him down literally about 1 second, especially since he maintains his inertia.

You saw someone conc straight through it at full speed in the open. If he was on the ground and bhopping, he would have been shot at and knocked around and likely lost his "real" momentum as well. This feature rewards teamwork, and six seconds is a decently long time in this game.

I just realized since these are specialty grenades, the majority of the time in AvD I won't have access to them anyway

Actually, on palermo and cornfield (and avanti, though I'm nowhere near done with it) I've given defense full grenades. I ought to do the same on dustbowl, et al and see how it plays.

You're right. Rather than discuss potentially obvious shortcomings now when values can be more easily tweaked before release, WAIT to discuss them AFTERWARDS, so there can be a 1-2 year delay for the next patch to address the issue.

Or you could join beta. The greatest lesson I've learned from being with FF is that talking about a game mechanic is nothing at all like testing it.

[MASH]

Will there be built in map voting in 2.42?

I ask because for the Australian servers, the admins are kinda noob and lazy and don't know how to install source-mod or whatever it is to use external map voting. So as you can imagine, ff dies with 3 people in server on CZ2 for 30 mins with no way to change the map

[squeek.]

No, sorry. Run your own server (or try to help out with the existing server(s)) if you think other servers are not doing it right.