Snipers! They don't belong.

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by GenghisTron

Typical reaction from a pubber. The game isn't played correctly in a pub. Please, tell me why we should listen to cries about game balance from people who are playing the game incorrectly?

So according to you, pub play is never correct. Since AvD basically never happens outside a pub, does this mean AvD is "incorrect"?

I think you forget that there's more to FF than just league CTF. Pub CTF is a nightmare and always has been. AvD used to be balanced once upon a time back in TFC and early FF. You've stated a couple times now that pub input is irrelevant, but when talking about changes that can break a game mode heavily, I don't understand this attitude.

I mean I can think of a lot of balance changes needed, but I wouldn't want league play completely sacrificed because I realize other people care about that, so there should be some compromise.

Originally Posted by Elmo

thanks for one of the most useless posts thus far childsanity

Well obviously it was meant to be sarcastic, I was trying to shed some light that this was sounding like a completely bigoted response. And no, Pubbing is NOT necessarily another way of playing the same game because you have gamemodes in pubbing that don't exist in leagues.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

Well obviously it was meant to be sarcastic, I was trying to shed some light that this was sounding like a completely bigoted response. And no, Pubbing is NOT necessarily another way of playing the same game because you have gamemodes in pubbing that don't exist in leagues.

"League" can refer to more than just literal, existing leagues and the way they play the game. ff_volleyball (or ff_redlight_greenlight for that matter) can have a "league" style of play, just as GunZ can have a "Korean-style/K-style".

In FF, league-style/clan-style usually refers to doing whatever is necessary to get more team points than the other team (within the rules/guidelines laid out, however arbitrary they might seem).

Originally Posted by Iggy

don't sit there and cry about it like a little girl with a skinned knee.....

If that's what you think this thread is (or even just my posts)... I don't know what to say.

[Iggy]

Originally Posted by squeek.

If that's what you think this thread is (or even just my posts)... I don't know what to say.

Not all of it, no. But alot of Bridget's complaints seem to be based specifically on that type of arguement. I know the Sniper isn't perfect, there is always room for improvement. Saying the class needs to be removed from the game all together, for whatever reason(s), is rediculous. It has it's place, in pubs, leagues and pickups. It's part of the game... like a wall is part of a map.

Maybe the Sniper shouldn't be in *ALL* situations/maps/styles/etc..... but then again, you could make the same arguement for all classes. Why pick out the sniper?

[Bridget]

Anyone who thinks you can 'fight back' with a Sniper who is sitting across the map with the laser on you is obviously deluded. "Some of you are acting like everyone who plays sniper gets an insta-gib everytime they fire." Yeah, except, that's how it is. The argument that the Sniper 'has its place' is not about its CORE BALANCE. Everyone keeps arguing the same shit "It's good on defense, it has its place, it has a role.", but that's irrelevant. I would not doubt such a consistency-breaking class indeed does have a good role.

The pub vs league play argument that goes on is what kills the experience for a lot of people. Ask anyone who fell away from FF or refuses to give it a try. I read a review once for Fortress Forever that specifically pointed out its elitism as a major flaw.

[squeek.]

League/clan-style play as elitism still doesn't make any sense to me. All league/clan-style means is that team score is the most important thing, and that everyone is playing with that in mind. Every beta test FF has ever had has been "league style" in that sense (and the beta team is and always has been far from elitist).

[Bridget]

It's not league play, it's the people league play creates. Like many other aspects of life, when you think you have all the answers, you develop a superiority complex and block out anything you presume is 'wrong'. I'm a member of the Talos Community, and I swear every day there was someone from the league scene in our server talking shit about how 'noob' someone was and how they'd 'totally own them in league play, not this pub shit' or bitching about how broken pubs were because their 'conc timing' was off by half a second. It just seems league players are on a fucking permanent high-horse, and it's what ruins the communal experience for new players. Trust me, community makes a game just as much as the game itself. Look at Team Fortress 2.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by Bridget

It's not league play, it's the people league play creates. Like many other aspects of life, when you think you have all the answers, you develop a superiority complex and block out anything you presume is 'wrong'.

That is certainly not specific to league players. Anyone can feel superior and have the need to express their opinions. See: Every multiplayer game ever (DotA illustrates the point well). I don't understand that need, but I'd still say it's both not unique to FF and not unique to league players.

I will say, though, anyone saying they'd "totally own [someone] in league play, not [that] pub shit" is clearly misguided. That statement doesn't make any sense in the context of league play, unless they were challenging someone to a 1v1 (which is basically a punchline in the competitive community).

chilled: The only thing different with CTF and non-CTF in your scenario is that CTF leagues exist at the moment and non-CTF don't. That is entirely different than non-CTF leagues not being able to exist. League play is not inherently specific to CTF. It just currently is.

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by squeek

In FF, league-style/clan-style usually refers to doing whatever is necessary to get more team points than the other team (within the rules/guidelines laid out, however arbitrary they might seem).

Well defining terms probably helps. I think of "league" play as CTF matches using several specific rules by experienced players. I tend to synonymize league play with "clan" or "pickup", etc. I guess my point is the flow goes like this:

CTF:
Start playing -> get good at it -> learn new rules and play pickups -> join a clan -> compete in league matches

AvD, ID, push maps, hunted, murderball etc.:
Start playing -> get good at it -> yeah that's pretty much it

[VentuSag3]

Originally Posted by Bridget

Anyone who thinks you can 'fight back' with a Sniper who is sitting across the map with the laser on you is obviously deluded. "[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]Some of you are acting like everyone who plays sniper gets an insta-gib everytime they fire.

So let me get this straight, you honestly believe that there are no legit strategies to get around snipers and fight back?

[Raynian]

Originally Posted by VentuSag3

So let me get this straight, you honestly believe that there are no legit strategies to get around snipers and fight back?

If you're trying to counter a sniper, by yourself, the only really effective way to do it (on, say, Aardvark) is to go demo and spawn camp the bastard. Even then it doesn't work perfectly, and on at least one certain server you'll get a ban threat for even thinking about OH NO SPAWN CAMPING, disregard the three snipers who blow your head off as soon as you peek out at the yard....

You shouldn't need to have somebody on "sniper duty" to counter the enemy team's snipers. Or even three people, as is often required. That just means you have less O, more yard dickery (and thus the offense can't accomplish as much, players get disheartened, slows gameplay).

And don't say "snipers counter snipers!" That's fucking stupid. That's demanding that you have one, no two, no three or four snipers on each time, just killing each other and it's gravy!

And sunshine and lollipops and shut the fuck up

[Bridget]

Originally Posted by VentuSag3

So let me get this straight, you honestly believe that there are no legit strategies to get around snipers and fight back?

Name some.

Edit: I find it comical that the people who complain that pubs turn into one or two scout runs with yard dm are the same people who see the Sniper as not being a problem. Yet, anyone with some honesty would realize the Sniper's advantage and weaponry denies anyone over a highly skilled Scout or Medic to enter the enemy base (usually).

So, people sit in the yard battling one another trying to get to the enemy sniper. No one can actually run offensive, some of the defenders get tired and leave, and the attackers quit and go to defense. Wham! D v D! The game ruins and welcome to the pub environment! Thanks Snipers!

Here are some 'de facto' ways of dealing with Snipers:

High movement to battlements:
Besides concussion grenades, which means you take up a vital O class (Scout or Medic) you have to use something like a rocket+nade jump or pipe jumps to get to the enemy battlements or to the other side of the map. I shouldn't have to damage myself + waste a vital slot countering snipers specifically. Besides, the argument that 'people just instantly respawn' can be used here too. Snipers instantly respawn as well. If you pipe their battlements, you get kicked/banned for spawn camping. I was banned for throwing nades up at Snipers in well, I've been banned from quite a few TFC servers for it, it's horse-shit.

Counter Sniper:
I don't want to play the class I despise. Besides, this uses yet another vital class slot, wasting it on countering another enemy sniper. There should be no 'hard counters' to specific classes. Every class should have the ability to fight back against a Sniper (whether by added means or the Sniper getting toned down to fit the range consistency) just as every class besides the Demoman should be able to down a sentry (as it is).

The Cliche Hollywood Soviet Way
You could just have your whole team swarm the Sniper. This is more stupidity than strategy. The idea is to distract him on one end so you can take him out on another. You take your entire team out of the game to counter some Snipers? Spare me. (Disclaimer: Soviets never fought this way in real combat. It's some bullshit propaganda created by the good ol' United States of Asinine to discredit the achievements of the Soviet Union in World War 2, who saved our asses long before we got around to doing anything important, so we rage and try to 'take the trophy' for saviors of the world in WWII by making their accomplishments look like an accident or coincidence. Ha ha ha~)

[VentuSag3]

Oh my, I guess the strategies I've been using that let me regularly get passed good snipers don't actually exist then. Because as we all know the idea that Bridget and Ray just might be bad at the game is clearly a load of nonsense. That just couldn't possibly be true! We must instead bend the laws of reality so that we no longer believe in the tactics of duck and cover, alternative routes, distractive fire, Spy cloak+dagger camping, water routes, throwing a spare conc at the sniper as you fly by so he cant get your team, and dozens more.

All those tactics just aren't in the game, and even if they were they are not viable because Bridget and Ray can't use them effectively. Going back to what I said about how the idea that they ARE BAD AT THIS GAME is not in any way possible, we must therefore assume that these strategies are not viable for anyone else either.

We should all follow their brave example and attempt to traverse to the enemy base as slow classes in uniform single file line without any bunnyhopping and just accept our fate of getting owned by snipers until the devs step in and remove them from the game to stop the madness.

[Circuitous]

I never really had an issue with Snipers either.

You've got a few basic ways to get into the enemy base against a good Sniper.

Method 1, for classes that have concs or safe nadejumps: peek out, bait a missed shot, then get yourself across. Worst case scenario they line you back up and tag you for minimum damage. If your bait ends with you getting insta-gibbed, at least you only lost a few seconds.

Method 2, for slower classes that don't really have any business in the enemy base, or for avoiding damage entirely at the expense of speed: take the other fucking route. Go through the water, for example. Take the back alley. Whatever.

Method 3, for Spies: cloak, you asshole.

Method 4, for anyone except Demo and maybe Pyro: pressure the Sniper with gunfire. A couple rockets, a stream of nails, etc.

An easy nerf for the Sniper would be to just raise his refire delay. If you wanted to start somewhere, I'd recommend that.

[Bridget]

Originally Posted by VentuSag3

Oh my, I guess the strategies I've been using that let me regularly get passed good snipers don't actually exist then. Because as we all know the idea that Bridget and Ray just might be bad at the game is clearly a load of nonsense. That just couldn't possibly be true! We must instead bend the laws of reality so that we no longer believe in the tactics of duck and cover, alternative routes, distractive fire, Spy cloak+dagger camping, water routes, throwing a spare conc at the sniper as you fly by so he cant get your team, and dozens more.

All those tactics just aren't in the game, and even if they were they are not viable because Bridget and Ray can't use them effectively. Going back to what I said about how the idea that they ARE BAD AT THIS GAME is not in any way possible, we must therefore assume that these strategies are not viable for anyone else either.

We should all follow their brave example and attempt to traverse to the enemy base as slow classes in uniform single file line without any bunnyhopping and just accept our fate of getting owned by snipers until the devs step in and remove them from the game to stop the madness.

You asked me if I knew of any effective strategies to get close enough to the Sniper to counter him. I made the implication that I did not by asking you to provide me with some. I supplied you with some current situations that allow the players of public environments to counter snipers, however counter intuitive and ineffective — the opposite of what you asked if I knew.

When I made the suggestion for you to provide me with some strategy to counter Snipers effectively, perhaps to reconsider my views on the Sniper, you merely resorting to ad-hominem attacks as shown above. This leads me to assume you don't actually have any valid strategies and were simply trolling. Good day, sir.

@ The Hints and @ the Suggestions above:

Method 1: Peeking out is enough to get me gibbed. I shouldn't have to play cat and mouse. I want to play Fortress Forever.
Method 2: The alternative route, which is usually accessed via the middle of the yard. I still have to dodge Snipers to get there. Remember DirectX too, which allows them to pick me out even in the water.
Method 3: Spies are easy to pick out with the Sniper rifle, especially with lower versions of DirectX. Why should I have to inch slowly across the yard to counter a broken fucking class?
Method 4: Yeah, because I should have to waste my ammunition and time doing that just to get across the yard, forgetting to realize that the projectiles are so slow on large maps, meaning the window for the Sniper to take you down is so huge. I can literally anticipate enemy rockets as Sniper on some maps (2fort for example) and show-fully jump over them to be an asshole to the person who fired them.

These suggestions are useless, anyway, because as I have said before, the discussion is on the class and its core means of play. It's not about subjective strategies or views of the class, whether it is pro and shit in competitive play, whether it has a role or purpose, or any of that.

I have always been wanting to address the objectives. The facts. Those being, that Sniper is the only class with a range advantage over the other classes. No one can have a fair fight with the Sniper, because he has a huge window of immediate opportunity over his enemies. In that window, they must get close to fight back. In that window, the Sniper can do as he pleases.

No one addresses this, though. Everyone resorts to superficial discussion. Does anyone actually agree that the Sniper has a HUGE advantage over the other classes? And, before you say it, as it is has said before, his health and armor are not downsides. His advantage directly protects against his only 'downside' (arguably not a real good one) and it only comes in effect situationally (after the Sniper fails to capitalize on his unfair advantage.)

You can argue "You can get around it!" but that doesn't change the objective fact that I am having to workaround something that should not be in FF. Something that is unfair. Something that makes FF not fun at all. SO, whatever. I don't like repeating myself (after a certain point, because I have done so for a while now)

[FEDOR]

Originally Posted by VentuSag3

Because as we all know the idea that Bridget and Ray just might be bad at the game is clearly a load of nonsense.

"Because as we all know" (mocking your constant use of this to try and sound as if you have a real argument) you are not exactly hot shit in this mod either. The only way you are getting by in Aardvark is if King is afk. And no, I am not saying I am good, so don't bother looking for insults.

@Circuit: Cloak is just too visible. The idea is there, but for some reason it just stands out way too much. Even if a spy stops moving when someone comes in to view, he has to hope that person has not already spotted him. If anything, it's much easier to spot a spy in Aardvark. I have not come into contact with a US-based spy who gets very far, save for Elwood.

[GenghisTron]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

So according to you, pub play is never correct. Since AvD basically never happens outside a pub, does this mean AvD is "incorrect"?

I think you forget that there's more to FF than just league CTF. Pub CTF is a nightmare and always has been. AvD used to be balanced once upon a time back in TFC and early FF. You've stated a couple times now that pub input is irrelevant, but when talking about changes that can break a game mode heavily, I don't understand this attitude.

I mean I can think of a lot of balance changes needed, but I wouldn't want league play completely sacrificed because I realize other people care about that, so there should be some compromise.

I think you're extrapolating your own interpretation of what I was trying to say. It's not so much that PUBS are incorrect, it's the people who play in pubs (Most of them) are the ones utilizing the games incorrectly. I pub all the time, and I find it enjoyable, but I also realize that the game is being improperly utilized in pubs. That's my point.

[cjeshjoir™]

I didn't read any of the other posts, but Im going to provide a solution anyways.

sniperrifle:
"Damage" = 35  (Original is 45)

Sniper can't rapidfire and blow people away as easily. Full charge shot to HWG chest isnt a kill anymore. And...

autorifle:
"Damage" = 5 (Original is 7)

This fucker isnt a soldier, he shouldnt act like one.

P.S.: More AvD.

[Bridget]

That's far from a solution.

[Credge]

A fully charged chest sniper shot shouldn't kill a full healthed HWGuy currently anyway. That is to say that with the current stats (unless undocumented changes have happened... which may be the case as it's happened before) do not physically allow this to happen.

The problem with the sniper is that he doesn't fit and his only counter is another sniper.

Map design (both CTF and AVD) plays a large role in this by having the best sniper spots typically being outside of spawns.

[cjeshjoir™]

Originally Posted by Bridget

That's far from a solution.

srsly though, play more AvD...