Iowa primaries.

[KubeDawg]

Originally Posted by Innoc

Ethanol is a bad direction for making motor vehicles move.

Care to elaborate?

Ethanol:
Is renewable
Reduces dependence on petroleum
Helps reduce greenhouse gas emissions
Can improve your vehicle's performance(higher octane = higher horsepower and torque)
Can help reduce smog-formed gas emissions
Can be produced by other byproducts such as switch grass or trees(produces less greenhouse gases than corn does)
Stores approx. 75% of the energy that gasoline does, however, one readily available, will become much cheaper than gasoline.
Vehicles that have sex appeal are starting to support ethanol E85 fuel.

What isn't there to like about it besides availability(which will be dependent on the public demand)?

[Scuzzy]

Originally Posted by KubeDawg

We are doing that already.

Um... Don't you think we could do it a little better? I mean, seriously, we've been there, what, 5 years? We haven't been able to completely seal off every single oil rig to only US personnel, get them running to 100% capacity and ship the oil directly here free without paying for it? Why not? Obviously we aren't doing that, or oil prices would be a bit cheaper, we wouldn't be as slave to OPEC pricing, right? If we're really over their for oil, isn't that exactly what we would do? And if we're capable of that, why wouldn't we just take over Saudi Arabia as well?

Scuzzy

[KubeDawg]

Originally Posted by Scuzzy

Um... Don't you think we could do it a little better? I mean, seriously, we've been there, what, 5 years? We haven't been able to completely seal off every single oil rig to only US personnel, get them running to 100% capacity and ship the oil directly here free without paying for it? Why not? Obviously we aren't doing that, or oil prices would be a bit cheaper, we wouldn't be as slave to OPEC pricing, right? If we're really over their for oil, isn't that exactly what we would do? And if we're capable of that, why wouldn't we just take over Saudi Arabia as well?

Scuzzy

You are under the impression that we can just go into other country's and simply take their oil without paying for it. We shouldn't even be there. We can't take over any part of the middle east. It's an impossibility. You are thinking along the same lines on GWB if you think we need to continue our presence there.....

[Innoc]

Originally Posted by KubeDawg

Care to elaborate?

Ethanol:
Is renewable
Reduces dependence on petroleum
Helps reduce greenhouse gas emissions
Can improve your vehicle's performance(higher octane = higher horsepower and torque)
Can help reduce smog-formed gas emissions
Can be produced by other byproducts such as switch grass or trees(produces less greenhouse gases than corn does)
Stores approx. 75% of the energy that gasoline does, however, one readily available, will become much cheaper than gasoline.
Vehicles that have sex appeal are starting to support ethanol E85 fuel.

What isn't there to like about it besides availability(which will be dependent on the public demand)?

How about keeping the problems with it simple?

Hypoxia - If you're not familiar with it you'd better make sure you do before promoting an idea that will explode the amount of land used for farming and the related chemicals.

Land - Given any thought to the amount of land needed to produce the needed fuel supply? You may want to do so.

Water - While there are crops that are more gentle on available water supply corn is what is used, primarily, to produce ethanol in the US. The impact on US water supplies to produce ethanol will be considerable and far more than most people have any clue about.

Food Supply - we're already seeing prices pressure that is attributed by many to the diversion of food to fuel. This will only increase as the value for fuel use impacts the food market. For how many cultures is corn a staple food source?

We need something else. Preferably a good vehicular power plant that does not require the the process of internal combustion to produce kinetic energy.

[Scuzzy]

Originally Posted by KubeDawg

You are under the impression that we can just go into other country's and simply take their oil without paying for it. We shouldn't even be there. We can't take over any part of the middle east. It's an impossibility. You are thinking along the same lines on GWB if you think we need to continue our presence there.....

No no no, that's not what I'm saying. I believed you were saying we were over there for oil, did you not? If so, why can't we just REALLY take the oil? If we are over there for oil, don't you think we could do a better job of taking it?

Scuzzy

[puppychow]

if we were/are there for oil, which i am not here to give my belief on, it would be a much more subtle process of ownership, you know that scuzzy. the world community would be up in arms with anything overt.

[BinaryLife]

I really don't think we were over there for oil. The cost of the war is more expensive than just buying the damn stuff. Such an accusation is unfounded. As Scuzzy said, we have not taken any. We didn't even take a little bit of oil. We took none, 0, nada, zilch etc.

I'm not going to say that Bush had personal, un announced interests. I'm just saying I don't think oil was one of them. I think Bush just wanted to score his friends and his company some cash and jobs. Kinda like "Hey, If we ever need to charter people to do rebuilding and stuff I'll come to you guys if you scratch my back later." Then, being Bush he's like "Hey, we kinda sorta have a reason to invade Iraq. This would be perfect for me and my buds."


*all quotes are approximations and based on extremely low information. Almost none in fact.

[Innoc]

Originally Posted by BinaryLife

I really don't think we were over there for oil. The cost of the war is more expensive than just buying the damn stuff. Such an accusation is unfounded. As Scuzzy said, we have not taken any. We didn't even take a little bit of oil. We took none, 0, nada, zilch etc.

I'm not going to say that Bush had personal, un announced interests. I'm just saying I don't think oil was one of them. I think Bush just wanted to score his friends and his company some cash and jobs. Kinda like "Hey, If we ever need to charter people to do rebuilding and stuff I'll come to you guys if you scratch my back later." Then, being Bush he's like "Hey, we kinda sorta have a reason to invade Iraq. This would be perfect for me and my buds."


*all quotes are approximations and based on extremely low information. Almost none in fact.

Michael Moore?

[BinaryLife]

Originally Posted by Innoc

Michael Moore?

I traded him a cheeseburger for some info.

[KubeDawg]

Originally Posted by Innoc

How about keeping the problems with it simple?

Hypoxia - If you're not familiar with it you'd better make sure you do before promoting an idea that will explode the amount of land used for farming and the related chemicals.

Land - Given any thought to the amount of land needed to produce the needed fuel supply? You may want to do so.

Replace the oil refinery locations with land that wil be usable for this type of thing. Takes time? Yes.

Originally Posted by Innoc

Water - While there are crops that are more gentle on available water supply corn is what is used, primarily, to produce ethanol in the US. The impact on US water supplies to produce ethanol will be considerable and far more than most people have any clue about.

So with our growing population throughout the US, even if ethanol didn't exist, there could be a day where there wouldn't be enough water for everyone? Doubtful because water is recycled, used over and over. Water isn't going anywhere soon, as it exists everywhere on the planet...

Originally Posted by Innoc

Food Supply - we're already seeing prices pressure that is attributed by many to the diversion of food to fuel. This will only increase as the value for fuel use impacts the food market. For how many cultures is corn a staple food source?

Once it becomes a mass market, more crop fields will be made, more ways to yield bigger crops per cobb, causing the price of corn to be the price it used to be. Right now we're using currently running farmlands farming corn that is normally used for food, however, in the future, as the market continues to build, companies will start making corn elsewhere for ethanol purposes, allowing current corn farmers to coninue their produce business.

Originally Posted by Innoc

We need something else. Preferably a good vehicular power plant that does not require the the process of internal combustion to produce kinetic energy.

Hydrogen is a good idea as well as HHO, but seem to be very expensive, and hasn't been tested as much as ethanol.

I am of the opinion that as the market grows, it will allow business to compete, not only with different types and grades of ethanol, but also competing with different types of alternative fuels, which will mark the day when one or the other becomes the standard.

Anything NEW is expensive, and costly on almost all sides, but without taking educated risks, nothing changes and we use oil till it's gone. And that's not something that needs to happen to anyone...

[Innoc]

Originally Posted by KubeDawg

Replace the oil refinery locations with land that wil be usable for this type of thing. Takes time? Yes.

So with our growing population throughout the US, even if ethanol didn't exist, there could be a day where there wouldn't be enough water for everyone? Doubtful because water is recycled, used over and over. Water isn't going anywhere soon, as it exists everywhere on the planet...

Once it becomes a mass market, more crop fields will be made, more ways to yield bigger crops per cobb, causing the price of corn to be the price it used to be. Right now we're using currently running farmlands farming corn that is normally used for food, however, in the future, as the market continues to build, companies will start making corn elsewhere for ethanol purposes, allowing current corn farmers to coninue their produce business.

Hydrogen is a good idea as well as HHO, but seem to be very expensive, and hasn't been tested as much as ethanol.

I am of the opinion that as the market grows, it will allow business to compete, not only with different types and grades of ethanol, but also competing with different types of alternative fuels, which will mark the day when one or the other becomes the standard.

Anything NEW is expensive, and costly on almost all sides, but without taking educated risks, nothing changes and we use oil till it's gone. And that's not something that needs to happen to anyone...

So, you don't understand what hypoxia is and why it's a real problem? Clearly, you don't understand the amount of land needed for farming of this magnitude. Convert space used by refineries for farming?!?!?! Huh? Honestly KD, you really need to spend a little more time on this subject. Ethanol is a bad direction and will harm far more than it will help.

edit: and saying that Hydrogen hasn't been tested as much as Ethanol is laughable. First of all how would you quantify either to even have a basis for saying so. Second, do you have any clue how long there has been research on turning hydrogen into a viable fuel? Ever hear of the term "Hydrogen Highway"? Any clue about that?

[FrenchToast]

If I'm not mistaken it takes more oil to produce usable ethanol then it does to just use oil.

I can't remember which news site I read that on, I'll try to dig it up, but AFAIK ethanol is actualy worse on oil consumption and is essentially a ruse to make people in San francisco stfu.

[Backstaber]

I mention that in my previous post concerning the subject.

Originally Posted by Backstaber

Did you guys know that creating biofuels like ethanol is costing more money and energy to make, and produces less (energy)

As much as I want to be off oil, that just isn't a realistic option at the moment, so until we find a realistic one that our entire nation can move to, we must expand and use the resources we currently have, as I have talked about in previous topics about this.
Nuclear energy: we need to get past the 70's and 80's and move on, nuclear energy is the only energy created with an almost zero airborne emissions (except water vapor). The only problem is the nuclear waste that is produced, which would have to be handled with absolute care when transported to nuclear waste storing facilities like Yucca Mountain.
Hydrogen Power: Hydrogen power takes a lot of electricity to produce. With the building of nuclear power plants, the additional electricity can be used in the research of Hydrogen energy to run the motors of cars in the future.

Now, there is still one problem with getting off oil completely, as there are several products produced from petroleum byproducts, such as plastics and other important materials (tar for roofing, and asphalt for roads). How would we find a way to produce these products in the absence of petroleum? Is it possible?

[YomMamasHouse]

All fossil fuels are bad news, but at least you guys aren't like China and developing countries which run off mostly coal. Coal is an absolute atrocity when it comes to emissions.

[Innoc]

Originally Posted by Backstaber

I mention that in my previous post concerning the subject.

As much as I want to be off oil, that just isn't a realistic option at the moment, so until we find a realistic one that our entire nation can move to, we must expand and use the resources we currently have, as I have talked about in previous topics about this.
Nuclear energy: we need to get past the 70's and 80's and move on, nuclear energy is the only energy created with an almost zero airborne emissions (except water vapor). The only problem is the nuclear waste that is produced, which would have to be handled with absolute care when transported to nuclear waste storing facilities like Yucca Mountain.
Hydrogen Power: Hydrogen power takes a lot of electricity to produce. With the building of nuclear power plants, the additional electricity can be used in the research of Hydrogen energy to run the motors of cars in the future.

Now, there is still one problem with getting off oil completely, as there are several products produced from petroleum byproducts, such as plastics and other important materials (tar for roofing, and asphalt for roads). How would we find a way to produce these products in the absence of petroleum? Is it possible?

Yucca's a bad direction for storage. Discussion of why is worthy of it's own thread guys.

[DarkeN_HellspawN]

with Hillary Clinton and vice versa.............I cannot believe they stared in this video together.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riirpyKOQ_A

This is just sick.......

dh