Team Fortress 2

[PsYcNeT]

Dude, it's obvious you just love arguing on the internet to fill some void in your life, but why harass us? Why not harangue all the CS players and try to convince them to play TF2?

I mean really, what is your major malfunction (and agenda)?

[EngeeMan]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Dude, it's obvious you just love arguing on the internet to fill some void in your life, but why harass us? Why not harangue all the CS players and try to convince them to play TF2?

I mean really, what is your major malfunction (and agenda)?

I can't stand people who are wrong and think they are right. I am just trying to help. Is that so wrong?

[Desyphur]

Yes. Because you should be talking to yourself. You seem to have a complex that tells you that everyone else is a moron and you are smart. Oh, and your "plan" up there...it doesn't work.

[EngeeMan]

Originally Posted by Desyphur

Yes. Because you should be talking to yourself. You seem to have a complex that tells you that everyone else is a moron and you are smart. Oh, and your "plan" up there...it doesn't work.

Yeah it has.

But thanks for the concern.

[Desyphur]

Just because it worked for you doesn't mean it'll always work. Because the spy always gets raped now. Oh, and gun's getting destoryed probably wouldn't matter

[PsYcNeT]

So basically what he's saying is that he is full of ill-advised hubris that convinces himself of his superiority to others.

In essence, he is a self-righteous dick who can't let people live their lives in their own manner and has to impose his will, thoughts, and concerns on everyone else, regardless of the ramifications or pertinent result, as long as he gets to say 'ha ha! I told you so!'

So like most of the people on the internet, he's 22 going on 5.

[Desyphur]

Nice PsYcNeT. That's exactly what I was saying in my first post on this page.

[EngeeMan]

Originally Posted by Desyphur

Just because it worked for you doesn't mean it'll always work. Because the spy always gets raped now. Oh, and gun's getting destoryed probably wouldn't matter

Yes, the spy is getting raped while the guns and engineers are getting the shit blown out of them with stickies and pipes. Mmmm yes. I know the first thing I do as engineer when an uber combo is coming in with additional demoman backup and desperately banging on my SG is shoot at a spy.

Simultaneously means at-the-same-time. If you are a dumbass spy waltzing into a confined room alone against multiple people of course you are going to die. You ride in on the coattails of a larger offensive target.

Wait, that is way too much of an advanced team tactic for the simplistic Fortress community. Let's make it so everyone can fight everyone else in every situation by themselves. We have the makings of a great team game, folks! How do you balance HE grenades? Give them to everyone! Problem solved.

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

So basically what he's saying is that he is full of ill-advised hubris that convinces himself of his superiority to others.

In essence, he is a self-righteous dick who can't let people live their lives in their own manner and has to impose his will, thoughts, and concerns on everyone else, regardless of the ramifications or pertinent result, as long as he gets to say 'ha ha! I told you so!'

So like most of the people on the internet, he's 22 going on 5.

ur such a cutie

[Desyphur]

Yes, the spy is getting raped while the guns and engineers are getting the shit blown out of them with stickies and pipes. Mmmm yes. I know the first thing I do as engineer when an uber combo is coming in with additional demoman backup and desperately banging on my SG is shoot at a spy.

I never said the engys did it. Because NO ONE PLAYS 4v4! It's always 12v12 or 6v6. If it's ever 4v4 they don't go 4 engys. The nearby HWGuy rapes the spy when he tries to sap. Or how about the pyro? And the Solly? The situation you laid out has never happened in any game I've played. Because I don't 4v4.

[EngeeMan]

Originally Posted by Desyphur

I never said the engys did it. Because NO ONE PLAYS 4v4! It's always 12v12 or 6v6. If it's ever 4v4 they don't go 4 engys. The nearby HWGuy rapes the spy when he tries to sap. Or how about the pyro? And the Solly? The situation you laid out has never happened in any game I've played. Because I don't 4v4.

you were talking about class limits and sentry farms, taking down entrenched sentries, and how if the player numbers equal the non-engineer team will lose. that is what i was talking about. if you want to change the subject, that's fine just let me know when you do it.

[DarkieJ]

blablabla topics against.. topics for.. Just play that goddamn game meeh meeeh

[Desyphur]

I had one paragraph with the words class limits in it. That was never the topic.

So did you not read the rest of my post or something?

I never said that 5 engys against 5 other people would win. I also never said the sentries were gathered in one tight area, I meant spread out at say, the last point of dustbowl, or in (shudder) floodzone. I said 5 engys would destroy any less than 5 people. Hell, I've seen 5 engys and sentries take down 12 people, because they were constantly at their sentries, and constantly repairing, the demomen didn't stand a chance.

*demoman walks up with sticky bomb gun* *dies*
*soldier get 1 rocket off, dies*
*spy walks up and saps all of them, but the engys are right there, so they remove the sappers and kill the spy*
*Medic Heavy combo comes up, and dies before they get ubercharge*
*multiple other classes meet similar fates, other than the sniper, who left the server a long time ago.*

Yeah. Class limits are needed.

Apparently you don't know what 5 sentries can do, all level 3. With Dispensers nearby.

[Skanky Butterpuss]

remember kids, keep it civil.

[Desyphur]

I'm trying to...

;D

[EngeeMan]

Originally Posted by Desyphur

I had one paragraph with the words class limits in it. That was never the topic.

So did you not read the rest of my post or something?

I never said that 5 engys against 5 other people would win. I also never said the sentries were gathered in one tight area, I meant spread out at say, the last point of dustbowl, or in (shudder) floodzone. I said 5 engys would destroy any less than 5 people. Hell, I've seen 5 engys and sentries take down 12 people, because they were constantly at their sentries, and constantly repairing, the demomen didn't stand a chance.

*demoman walks up with sticky bomb gun* *dies*
*soldier get 1 rocket off, dies*
*spy walks up and saps all of them, but the engys are right there, so they remove the sappers and kill the spy*
*Medic Heavy combo comes up, and dies before they get ubercharge*
*multiple other classes meet similar fates, other than the sniper, who left the server a long time ago.*

Yeah. Class limits are needed.

Apparently you don't know what 5 sentries can do, all level 3. With Dispensers nearby.

So... the enemy team has 5 guys all spread out in the map hiding behind their guns. The attacking team has 5 guys (who all apparently suck) but instead of teaming up they shuffle one by one into the sgs to die.

Makes sense.

If they are all spread out then 5 demos or 4 demos and a medic would be able to wipe them out pretty damn easily if they have any sense in their head.

[Desyphur]

Imagine, if you willl, 5 sentry guns, a square room, and you standing in the corner. On the two walls and the corner seperate of you at 5 sentries, 2 on each wall, one on the coner. Now put that at the end of Dustbowl. That's fucking deadly.

[TwoTired]

Beetle's mod adds in class limits - Thank god.

Playing vs a 12 man all-engi team on gravel is the worst thing ever.

[phatfish]

EngeeMan, i think you have made a very valiant attempt to argue logically the merits of TF2 to people who don't want to listen. I don't get FF fans they will sit here -- forever and a day (no pun intended) -- saying how crap TF2 is, but what difference does it make? None.

If they really cared they would be trying to help the community rather than arguing.

I'll tell you the major difference i see between TF2 and FF. Team Fortress 2 is a TEAM game, its really geared towards forcing teamwork (if you ever played on a FF pub you will know you need to be FORCED into teamwork). In FF and TFC its up to the players to decide whether they want to work in a team, because (almost) each class on its own has enough power to go solo.

Bearing that in mind you have two different styles of play, as EngeeMan keeps saying. You might prefer one to the other but neither is "better" than the other.

As for the comments on TF2 not needing skill to play, that is just bullshit. Different skills maybe, but not no skill.

Just to clarify im not saying i personally think TF2 is better than FF, i like playing them both as they provide unique experiences. The "Cirtical Hit's" and spawn timer on TF2 are crap, but the rest of the game is good enough for me to overlook a couple of bad decisions.

[TwoTired]

TF2 does require less skills than FF - but that's not the point of the post I'm going to make here :

Simply put, all the TFC veterans should stop bitching (including myself :P).

Why?

You honestly didn't expect TF2 to be a better, extended TF with more features and neat tricks, did you?

Valve is now a bit of a big player in the video gaming industry - TF2 was the correct decision from a business standpoint.

Easy to pick up & play game that you can master in a week or two with no fancy trix or complications with so much polish, if it was a picture you'd be able to see the lens flare.

Is anyone alienated? No, except for the hardcore TF players.

Anyone, including your mom, can play TF2 and be good at it or at least enjoy it - it's a game for the masses, not TF fans.

The wider the audience = the more cash.

It's that simple.

Large game studios will go with what makes the money and not with what the community wants. Smaller game studios have more leeway in terms of innovation and more complex games and modifications have the options completely wide open.

People argue that a complex game is "not fun" but I disagree. When I play a game, I expect that game to have a lot to offer, to the point that in every playthrough would make me learn something new. To me, a "play & know everything within 2 hours" game is a very shortlived game.

Complex games also require patience - something that a lot of people don't have now-a-days. The older generation of gamers had patience drilled into em since the days of old :P. Average joe would be scared away but longtimegamer187 has no problem playing and enjoying the game.

A training / help system would also help massively in a complex game. Anyone who says complex games are "Not fun" should've taken a look at Natural selection - Incredibly high-quality half life mod that had a very, very steep learning curve. TFC / FF is a cakewalk compared to Natural Selection. It lived for quite a while and became immensely popular, Natural Selection provided me with the most fun I've ever had after TFC.

tl;dr version :

Commercial developers are NOT going to make your next dream, uber game. They're going to make the next hot-cake-seller.

For your uber game, look at small-scale developers and MOD teams.


Note : I know my post was all scattered around but I'm tired so bare with me :P.

[Dr.Uudge]

And also, it's a shame that FF is often being compared to TFC instead of TFmod. I think TFC was ok, but a very not-so-good interpretation/port for the TF mods for the hl1 engine, not to mention the horrible class imbalances.

If you try to push the FF physics to its limits, like trimp concing or trimp rocket/ic jumping, engy raygun-grenade jumping, etc, just kind of learning to how to do different tricks incorporating the new physics, and then try to go back to tfc, you can notice how significant the enhancements are for FF.