Yet another school shooting.

[Innoc]

Well, if it's all the same to you guys I'm keeping my weapons.

[SME]

Originally Posted by uBeR

You're a very confused person SME. You're only reply to one abstract that listed caveats, which are a part of academic honesty. You didn't bother to read the paper either. You've completely misrepresented the abstract as well. Then you ignore the other half dozen references, which includes the NAS, which completely refute Lott and Mustard.

And no, I was unable to read Lott's response to Donohue and Ayres because I can't get the PDF to open (I've been having troubles with Adobe Reader lately, so it could be me). But the SSRN seems to be the only place it's hosted. Either way, he doesn't address the fact that he fabricated his survey data, because that allegation didn't come until about 2002 by Duncan and Lambert. Again, you're relying on a lousy researcher whose work has been discredited by many. Guns do not reduce crime.

You lying over and over about Lott doesn't make it any more true. It just shows that you don't know wtf you're talking about, like all gun grabbers.

http://johnrlott.tripod.com/postsbyday/6-7-03.html

Good luck...

[~kev~]

Originally Posted by SME

Arm the faculty, then taxpayers don't have to pay more, for guards that are unneeded.

Or, set up a donut shop at the school, then the cops will flock in by the herds.

[SME]

Originally Posted by ~kev~

Or, set up a donut shop at the school, then the cops will flock in by the herds.

Citizens are better shots and shoot the wrong people, less often.

[uBeR]

Lol I'm lying while stating facts? That's an oxymoron. You refuse to even discuss the points I've been raising and instead argue fallaciously, so I'll just assume henceforth you either cannot comprehend or willfully ignore the data.

[~kev~]

Originally Posted by uBeR

Lol I'm lying while stating facts? That's an oxymoron. You refuse to even discuss the points I've been raising and instead argue fallaciously, so I'll just assume henceforth you either cannot comprehend or willfully ignore the data.

This thread is 5 pages long, just "who" are you taking to?

[YomMamasHouse]

I think it is pretty obviously SME he has been talking to.

[Ginger Lord]

Sometime I wonder how much better America would have turned out if the Second Amendment never happened.

[Credge]

Originally Posted by Ginger Lord

Sometime I wonder how much better America would have turned out if the Second Amendment never happened.

Fuck you. My bear arms are awesome.

[~kev~]

Originally Posted by Ginger Lord

Sometime I wonder how much better America would have turned out if the Second Amendment never happened.

After hurricane Katrina passed through New Orleans, mayor Nagin ordered law enforcement and the national guard to go house to house and collect every gun from every law abiding citizen.

http://www.gunowners.org/no02.htm

On September 8, several news outlets began reporting that officials in New Orleans were confiscating firearms... not from looters, but from law-abiding citizens who legally owned firearms! "No one will be able to be armed," said Deputy Chief Warren Riley. "We are going to take all the weapons." It was like a scene out of the former Soviet Union or Communist China. The Associated Press quoted Compass, the police commissioner, as saying, "Only law enforcement are allowed to have weapons." Well, there you have it. Given the chance, gun control advocates will always implement their real agenda -- confiscation of firearms from everyone... except the police! ABC News video on September 8 showed National Guard troops going house-to-house, smashing down doors, searching for residents, and confiscating guns. Every victim of disarmament was clearly not a thug or looter, but a decent resident wanting to defend his or her home.

Many of the troops were clearly conflicted by their orders. "It is surreal," said one member of the Oklahoma National Guard who was going door-to-door in New Orleans. "You never expect to do this in your own country."

This left the public at the mercy of criminals. Oh, I forgot, criminals do not have mercy.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16488671/

NEW ORLEANS - The Big Easy’s murder rate is staggering. In a single, recent 24-hour period six people died, including a 36-year-old mother gunned down in front of her husband and 2-year-old in their own home.

The national rifle association sued mayor nagin, and the NRA own.
http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/...1/171852.shtml

A federal judge ordered the mayor of new orleans to return all the collected firearms. As far as I know, mayor nagin still has not returned the guns, and the murder rate continues to go up. Mayor Ray Nagin held in contempt of court http://michellemalkin.com/2007/02/14...d-in-contempt/

A United States District Judge in New Orleans has granted a motion to hold Mayor C. Ray Nagin and Police Superintendent Warren Riley in contempt for failure to provide initial disclosures and answers to discovery in a lawsuit filed by the Second Amendment Foundation.

So what would happen if citizens did not have the right to own guns?

Criminals would be importing guns from other countries. If the flow of cocaine and illegal immigrants can not be stopped, what makes people think a flow of guns can be stopped? Then, law abiding citizens would have no way to defend theirselves. Its either call 911 and wait, and wait, and wait for someone to show up. Or grab your firearm and defend yourself and your family.

Most people have this delusion that the police will show up within seconds, maybe minutes after dialing 911. Most of the time, it will be 10+ minutes before a police officer will arrive.

Want to know what things would be like with a disarmed public, look at new orleans and new york. Both have some of the most strict gun laws, and both cities have some of the highest murder rates in the nation. New Orleans is disarmed, and they have THE highest murder rate in the entire nation!!

[ekiM]

England is disarmed and we have far lower murder rates than the US!! Switzerland is heavily armed and they have even lower!! Feel free to draw whatever the hell conclusion you like.

[~kev~]

Originally Posted by ekiM

England is disarmed and we have far lower murder rates than the US!! Switzerland is heavily armed and they have even lower!! Feel free to draw whatever the hell conclusion you like.

Got facts or external links to back up your statements?

Not that I doubt that england has lower murder rates, but I would like to see how much lower and what devices were used in the murders.

Then there are a lot of cultural differences as well.

[Bubbles]

Originally Posted by ~kev~

Then there are a lot of cultural differences as well.

Murder is to the US as tea is to the the UK.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by ~kev~

The national rifle association sued mayor nagin, and the NRA own.

Funny typo.

[uBeR]

Why are there no reliable news sources reporting on Ray Nagin's contempt charges? In fact, there are none discussing his confiscation of firearms. Also, all the articles seem to be about how Nagin and Riley were brought to court--but not the outcome. Apparently the case was scheduled to be tried in June, but I haven't seen reports about the outcome of that case.

From what I've been able to find about Katrina & Louisiana via scholarly sources is that:
1) In discussing nontraditional behaviors emergent after the Katrina catastrophe, prosocial behaviors emerged far more than antisocial behaviors, despite constant media attention on the latter. (Rodríguez et al. 2006.)
2) The loss of social institutions and stability, and political and economic chaos was a major cause of crime following Katrina. (Dyson 2006.)

From CNN, it's reported that crime and murder went up markedly across the nation in 2005, not just in Louisiana (actually, TIME reports crime went down in New Orleans after Katrina, which was the deadliest city in America before Katrina). In fact, a lot of the early reports of a massive influx of crime in Louisiana turned out to be unsubstantiated rumors (see e.g., here). Looting seems to be the biggest criminal problem following Katrina, which was mostly due to lack of policing and unattended stores. Others say guns are the reason crime is high (TIME sez, "Most people who study crime in New Orleans see it in the context of a panorama of failures: . . . shamefully easy access to guns"). In Houston, where many evacuees retreated to, crime also went up. But in Houston, there aren't tough gun laws and no mayors are seizing firearms. The probable link in this case is that social calamity and displacement play a larger role than accessibility to guns.

It really appears your babble about guns and crime is just that.

[~kev~]

Of course the crime rate went down - for just a little bit because NO one was in New Orleans. See the links I posted about the crime rate in NO being 10X higher then the rest of the nation - do I really need to post the same link over and over, why don't you just read them the first time?

Nagin refuses to comply with any court order. The NRA has had to file contempt of court charges on him to try and get him to comply. Here is a copy of the contempt of court papers in PDF format.

Originally Posted by uBeR

From CNN, it's reported that crime and murder went up markedly across the nation in 2005, not just in Louisiana (actually, TIME reports crime went down in New Orleans after Katrina, which was the deadliest city in America before Katrina).

Since you, uBeR did not care to read the links I posted, here are some exerts.

This article was from 2005:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8999837

New Orleans murder rate on the rise again
Homicide rate nowhere near ’94 peak but still 10 times national average

The city’s murder rate is still far lower than a decade ago, when New Orleans was the country’s murder capital. But in recent years, the city’s homicide rate has climbed again to nearly 10 times the national average.

Thats right 10X the national average!!!

This article is from July 2007

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/77754.php

Already High Murder Rate Increased In New Orleans After Katrina

A Tulane University researcher used estimated repopulation trajectories after Hurricane Katrina from the City of New Orleans Emergency Operations Center, the Louisiana Recovery Authority, Rand Corporation and an analysis of postal service change-of-address requests to estimate murder rates for 2005 and 2006. He found that murder rates jumped by 14 percent between 2004 and 2005 and by a staggering 69 percent between 2004 and 2006. The huge increase in 2006 began during the second quarter of that year and continued unabated through the rest of the year.

Murder rate jumped 14% then 69%. Now, where are your links to back up your claims that the murder rate went down?? PROVE IT!!!!

As far as the crime rate going up across the nation, you really need to do your research better then just quoting websites with stats you do not understand.

The increase in crime across the nation is from the criminals leaving N.O. and bringing crime to their communities. Houston Texas was one of the hardest hit. Crime rates along with violent crimes soared right after the influx of people from N.O.

http://www.city-journal.org/html/eon2006-01-04ng.html

This city of nearly 2 million has experienced a marked uptick in its homicide rate since more than 100,000 of New Orleans’s displaced residents flocked into town in late August and early September. While Houston’s murder rate is up 23 percent for all of 2005, it spiked 70 percent in November and December compared to last year’s levels. At least 35 percent of Houston’s December increase in homicides—five of 14 over last year’s level—directly stemmed from the presence of Katrina evacuees.

Houstons crime rate jumped 70% after the people from N.O. showed up. I live just north of Houston, we were hearing of the jump in crime 2 years ago. The sale of guns to law abiding citizens also jumped because of all the home invasions going on in houston. You should ahve heard the news coming out of Houston about the home invasions. Doors getting kicked in, people getting beat up, robbed and murdered. Those kinds of stories went on and on.

Back to the illegal gun pick up:

http://www.nraila.org/News/Read/Releases.aspx?ID=7272

Fairfax, VA—The National Rifle Association (NRA ) has filed a motion for contempt against the City of New Orleans, the mayor and the acting chief of police for failure to comply with a temporary restraining order, handed down September 12, 2005, ordering an end to all illegal gun confiscations.

No news on the new orleans gun confiscations huh?
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.as...20050914a.html
http://www.google.com/search?q=new+o...ient=firefox-a
http://www.nraila.org/News/Read/InTheNews.aspx?ID=9834
http://www.time.com/time/nation/arti...611939,00.html

We're pushing for legislation that ensures the gun confiscations in New Orleans will never be repeated in this country.

[Zydell]

You cannot (reliably) conclude backwards.

[BinaryLife]

Why can't you guys have a debate about how video game violence did, or did not cause this? That's usualy what we do when we see these school schootings in the news.

[Zydell]

Because nobody caused this, some thing helping causing other things and the fact that weapons exist is one of them. If it would be posssible to prove that certain things alone cause or contribute to this then they are usefull (if at least you can intercept) for prevention.

That is the question right? how can we prevent it? not how (is it possible that) it happened… of course it is possible, weapons exist, and a very diverse amount of human (-s/genes) exist.

[Ginger Lord]

We don't shoot people over here, well...about 50 people a year at most.

We like to get up close and personal and stab them instead.