Gabe Newell: DirectX 10 for Vista was a mistake - Page 2

**mervaka** · 08-29-2007, 12:51 PM

multicore is an inevitable and radical step forward. it will allow the multi tasking of physics, sound DSP, and whatever else (hell, maybe even graphics?) to be carried out on the same processor, on different cores. i cant wait for this development process to mature!

Ihmhi · 08-29-2007, 06:44 PM

Microsoft made the mistake of making DX10 Vista exclusive because they assumed that companies would want to take advantage of the latest technology for gaming. They assumed that companies would make games with awesome features only available to DX10 (kinda like Valve with its HDR stuff, you need a certain amount of power to run it).

Only problem is that never happened and probably will not for at least a year or two.

Vista will probably be very nice and worth the money in 2009.

Jiggles · 08-29-2007, 08:50 PM

Multi-core is one thing, but what makes the PS3 a real bitch is that each "core" isn't symmetric, so it really matters which "core" your specific thread is running on. Sony has said that they are looking for a 10-year life cycle for the PS3. That's nice, but if building such a system requires the first 2 years of that cycle to suck...well...that sucks

Norris · 08-30-2007, 08:44 AM

Valve will also update the source engine to dx10 if there are enough players out there who can use it. the hardware survey shows that it doesn't really make sense at the moment.

SizeableSSonic · 08-30-2007, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiggles

Multi-core is one thing, but what makes the PS3 a real bitch is that each "core" isn't symmetric, so it really matters which "core" your specific thread is running on. Sony has said that they are looking for a 10-year life cycle for the PS3. That's nice, but if building such a system requires the first 2 years of that cycle to suck...well...that sucks

Too bad the PS3 is pretty much screwed over at this point. PS3 owners will say pretty much any game is awesome, so they can justify their purchase of a 600 dollar paperweight.

Oh, and it should be worth noting the Wii is within about 1 million consoles sold of beating Microsoft and the 360. I'm glad I own both.

kam · 08-30-2007, 01:30 PM

wii surpassed 360 already man

Marshmallow Noob · 08-30-2007, 03:12 PM

I hate the wii. It's only really good for a few types of games. Everything else you play is a fucking hastle.

Schmuck · 08-30-2007, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SizeableSSonic

Too bad the PS3 is pretty much screwed over at this point. PS3 owners will say pretty much any game is awesome, so they can justify their purchase of a 600 dollar paperweight.

Yeah no kidding hey? I have a friend who just bought Madden 08 for PS3, but it only runs at 30 fps in comparison to 360's silky smooth 60 fps. He's still in denial :P

PS3 will probably end up like PS2, once enough third party developers get on board, some new FF titles come out, probably will be the same outcome as last console war. Just needs a bit of time to get some steam (pardon the pun) and momentum, also to be honest, I think the PS3 was so damn rushed that the developers are still absolutely baffled how to get the most out of the hardware.

Gran Turismo 5 will probably (hopefully) be the best example of the next-gen capabilities of the PS3. That's one thing I am excited about on PS3, as critical as I have been about it's execution / release.

Jiggles · 08-30-2007, 09:05 PM

The Wii has become so successful in large part due to attracting casual gamers. I just hope people who want games with some actual depth aren't forgotten. Also, so far, I've found the wii's remote to be a bit buggy or bad at reading certain motions. Hopefully that's just bad/immature code, and not a flaw of the remote itself.

mistermojo · 08-30-2007, 09:46 PM

the most annoying thing is that they had games that don't even use DX10 only be Vista exclusive, like Halo 2 and Shadowrun. People cracked a few files and could play them just as well on windows xp

Sabre · 08-30-2007, 10:16 PM

I think the wii has been so successful due to Nintendo realising the rule of gaming life: anything good worth playing seriously play it on PC, anything fun and enjoyable with your mates play it on a dumbed down PC with shiny lights and a controller.

**mervaka** · 08-31-2007, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sabre

I think the wii has been so successful due to Nintendo realising the rule of gaming life: anything good worth playing seriously play it on PC, anything fun and enjoyable with your mates play it on a dumbed down PC with shiny lights and a controller.

qft

SizeableSSonic · 08-31-2007, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kam

wii surpassed 360 already man

Not quite yet, but it's less than one million consoles away.

Zaskar · 08-31-2007, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiggles

Multi-core is one thing, but what makes the PS3 a real bitch is that each "core" isn't symmetric, so it really matters which "core" your specific thread is running on. Sony has said that they are looking for a 10-year life cycle for the PS3. That's nice, but if building such a system requires the first 2 years of that cycle to suck...well...that sucks

Sony over estimated their prowess with the PS3.

They built the architecture so that a game needs to almost be built from the ground up for the system, making it very hard to port to other systems if it is using the full capabilities of the PS3. They figured they had a big enough stake in the industry that they would be the ones who got picked for better games first, and this change they made would then help to eliminate competition.

Instead many game companies are saying screw it, and making games that work on the Wii and Xbox360 and PC instead of dealing with that BS.

Sabre · 09-01-2007, 06:59 PM

The PS3 will come good eventually, it's inevitable.

summit · 09-02-2007, 04:27 AM

It ultimately comes down to looking at the opportunity cost of investing additional units of time into developing games for the PS3 that take full advantage of its troublesome hardware.

The big problem is though, that in order to make that investment in time justifiable, you need to have a bigger market share and consequently more customers in order to see a point in the additional time spent on development.

If we make the assumption developers are making a multiplat game, and consequently want the easiest platform to develop for, then it's easy to assume that their lead platform will be a 360. So they're able to build it up to a point they're happy with on the 360 and port across to other consoles. However there's no incentive to spend more time on the PS3 after they've ported and optimized, when they've already got the game they want. Taking advantage of the "cell" in cases like this, is not advantageous.

Maybe when they're making an exclusive would this be taken into consideration, but then again by making an exclusive they reduce their audience (significantly considering PS3 numbers) and therefore any monetary incentive to inject additional funds into the project is reduce too.

I'm not biased either way, but the problem I see at this point is that there just isn't that incentive to spend the extra time in development purely for the PS3.

A lot of ignorant "fanboys" would have you believe that there's all this hidden power that it's only a matter of time before people start using, but realistically I just don't see it happening yet. The console just hasn't sold enough, and that's impart to a hefty pricetag ($1000 AUD) that does nothing to entice customers over a 360 or Wii.

So sure, people can try to justify their purchase by attesting it's only a matter of time, but is this what we're to expect throughout the console's life? Is it really too hard to admit that it just isn't *worth* it at the moment? Someone said it brilliantly; the PS3 is an exceptional Bluray player, and pretty awful for gaming (at present). I don't question that the power is there (we actually looked at the PS3's architecture in a course at Uni) but it's whether there are people out there who can justify the "extra" work that's a more intriguing question.

Fail · 09-02-2007, 07:18 AM

PS3 isn't going anywhere. People aren't making a lot of high profile games exclusively for the PS3. As a result of a lack of games, high price point, and a bad image no one is buying the system. A lot of people need to own a console to entice developers to make games for it. It's just not an intelligent business venture if you're statistically not going to turn a profit. So basically, no one wants to buy it and developers have no reason to try to make them want it. The PS3 is caught in this vicious cycle which will cause it to go nowhere.

Sidd · 09-02-2007, 11:38 AM

PS3 has sold almost exactly as quickly as the xbox360.
Pwetty Graph

With no games, a high price, and a bad image, I think it's doing rather well.

karnage · 09-03-2007, 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sidd

PS3 has sold almost exactly as quickly as the xbox360.
Pwetty Graph

With no games, a high price, and a bad image, I think it's doing rather well.

i get a virus alert when i go to that page. i'm warning people with no anti-virus to not click that link.

Sabre · 09-03-2007, 01:14 AM

My AV doesn't have a problem with it, good graph if it's accurate.

08-29-2007, 12:51 PM	#21
mervaka A Very Sound Guy! Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: May 2005 Location: UK Posts Rated Helpful 15 Times	multicore is an inevitable and radical step forward. it will allow the multi tasking of physics, sound DSP, and whatever else (hell, maybe even graphics?) to be carried out on the same processor, on different cores. i cant wait for this development process to mature! __________________ Support FF:

08-29-2007, 06:44 PM	#22
Ihmhi [AE] 0112 Ihmhi SJB Wiki Team Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Newark, NJ, United States Class/Position: A little bit o' everythin' Gametype: Also a little bit o' everythin' Affiliations: [AE] Asseater, SJB Straight Jacket Brigade Posts Rated Helpful 3 Times	Microsoft made the mistake of making DX10 Vista exclusive because they assumed that companies would want to take advantage of the latest technology for gaming. They assumed that companies would make games with awesome features only available to DX10 (kinda like Valve with its HDR stuff, you need a certain amount of power to run it). Only problem is that never happened and probably will not for at least a year or two. Vista will probably be very nice and worth the money in 2009. __________________ Support FF: Anime: The Thread: Reloaded The one and only anime thread on these here forums. Select the pistol, and then, select your horse.

08-29-2007, 08:50 PM	#23
Jiggles Retired FF Staff Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: CowTown Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Multi-core is one thing, but what makes the PS3 a real bitch is that each "core" isn't symmetric, so it really matters which "core" your specific thread is running on. Sony has said that they are looking for a 10-year life cycle for the PS3. That's nice, but if building such a system requires the first 2 years of that cycle to suck...well...that sucks

08-30-2007, 08:44 AM	#24
Norris The Good German Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Germany Posts Rated Helpful 1 Times	Valve will also update the source engine to dx10 if there are enough players out there who can use it. the hardware survey shows that it doesn't really make sense at the moment.

08-30-2007, 01:30 PM	#26
kam Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	wii surpassed 360 already man

08-30-2007, 03:12 PM	#27
Marshmallow Noob D&A Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Baton Rouge, LA Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	I hate the wii. It's only really good for a few types of games. Everything else you play is a fucking hastle.

08-30-2007, 09:05 PM	#29
Jiggles Retired FF Staff Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: CowTown Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	The Wii has become so successful in large part due to attracting casual gamers. I just hope people who want games with some actual depth aren't forgotten. Also, so far, I've found the wii's remote to be a bit buggy or bad at reading certain motions. Hopefully that's just bad/immature code, and not a flaw of the remote itself.

08-30-2007, 09:46 PM	#30
mistermojo the pumps dont work Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	the most annoying thing is that they had games that don't even use DX10 only be Vista exclusive, like Halo 2 and Shadowrun. People cracked a few files and could play them just as well on windows xp

08-30-2007, 10:16 PM	#31
Sabre Creg Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Manchester Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	I think the wii has been so successful due to Nintendo realising the rule of gaming life: anything good worth playing seriously play it on PC, anything fun and enjoyable with your mates play it on a dumbed down PC with shiny lights and a controller.

09-01-2007, 06:59 PM	#35
Sabre Creg Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Manchester Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	The PS3 will come good eventually, it's inevitable.

09-02-2007, 04:27 AM	#36
summit Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	It ultimately comes down to looking at the opportunity cost of investing additional units of time into developing games for the PS3 that take full advantage of its troublesome hardware. The big problem is though, that in order to make that investment in time justifiable, you need to have a bigger market share and consequently more customers in order to see a point in the additional time spent on development. If we make the assumption developers are making a multiplat game, and consequently want the easiest platform to develop for, then it's easy to assume that their lead platform will be a 360. So they're able to build it up to a point they're happy with on the 360 and port across to other consoles. However there's no incentive to spend more time on the PS3 after they've ported and optimized, when they've already got the game they want. Taking advantage of the "cell" in cases like this, is not advantageous. Maybe when they're making an exclusive would this be taken into consideration, but then again by making an exclusive they reduce their audience (significantly considering PS3 numbers) and therefore any monetary incentive to inject additional funds into the project is reduce too. I'm not biased either way, but the problem I see at this point is that there just isn't that incentive to spend the extra time in development purely for the PS3. A lot of ignorant "fanboys" would have you believe that there's all this hidden power that it's only a matter of time before people start using, but realistically I just don't see it happening yet. The console just hasn't sold enough, and that's impart to a hefty pricetag ($1000 AUD) that does nothing to entice customers over a 360 or Wii. So sure, people can try to justify their purchase by attesting it's only a matter of time, but is this what we're to expect throughout the console's life? Is it really too hard to admit that it just isn't worth it at the moment? Someone said it brilliantly; the PS3 is an exceptional Bluray player, and pretty awful for gaming (at present). I don't question that the power is there (we actually looked at the PS3's architecture in a course at Uni) but it's whether there are people out there who can justify the "extra" work that's a more intriguing question.

09-02-2007, 07:18 AM	#37
Fail Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	PS3 isn't going anywhere. People aren't making a lot of high profile games exclusively for the PS3. As a result of a lack of games, high price point, and a bad image no one is buying the system. A lot of people need to own a console to entice developers to make games for it. It's just not an intelligent business venture if you're statistically not going to turn a profit. So basically, no one wants to buy it and developers have no reason to try to make them want it. The PS3 is caught in this vicious cycle which will cause it to go nowhere.

09-02-2007, 11:38 AM	#38
Sidd Lua Team Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 1 Times	PS3 has sold almost exactly as quickly as the xbox360. Pwetty Graph With no games, a high price, and a bad image, I think it's doing rather well.

09-03-2007, 01:14 AM	#40
Sabre Creg Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Manchester Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	My AV doesn't have a problem with it, good graph if it's accurate.

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