Leveling the competition - Page 9

o_eat · 03-12-2005, 10:44 AM

Quote:

To shoot off at a tangent: If you have a server full of newbies and not-quite-newbies, and one or two leet clanners arrive and proceed to totally own the place, the other players on the server are quite likely to get annoyed.

Yes this is the scenario in TFC but FF will be different. If you explain to new players what the skillful techniques are, and how to do them, they should have a bit more respect for the skilled player. They would see it as an oppertunity to learn something from the skilled players, maybe by spectating them, or maybe just give them hell

In TFC new players a) dont even know what bunnyhopping is or b) get told by someone else it is cheating. So when they see a good player bunnyhopping they naturally get pissed off. We can instantly fix both a) and b) with good documentation. Granted, some players will totally miss the documentation, and some may even still believe bhopping is the devils work, but I think we can keep these people to a minority.

Jiggles · 03-12-2005, 02:32 PM

I think the dev team needs to add a server side command called "RTFM"

That way, an admin can do "rcon RTFM (1)Player," and it will instantly bring up the documentation on that player's computer

(yes, that was not serious)

o_ivaqual · 03-12-2005, 02:35 PM

read the fucking manual ?

o_salo · 03-12-2005, 02:45 PM

dev. team, you're saying bh will be a "basic" skill and should be easy for everyone to pick up.. does that mean that a relatively new player will be able to bunnyhop with the same efficiency as a top player?

the question comes down to whether it is possible to be a better bunnyhopper (perhaps a quicker one?) the more you practice and the better you get.
this would seem obvious, but how is it going to be ensured?

correct me if i'm wrong >_<

o_shaggy · 03-12-2005, 07:01 PM

Salo from what i've read i believe they are making the basics easy to pick up, but i'm sure to master will take much time. OHHH i liked the idea about not allowing the best players on one team on a pub. How about the server after each round splits the teams evenly by using their stats from last round to rank then divide them accordingly.

o_rebo · 03-12-2005, 07:21 PM

Thats a good idea shaggy ill add it to my list.

o_qbaler · 03-13-2005, 03:27 AM

shaggy that should be a server cvar because some ppl/servers like playing with their friends and what not. Its like force balancing which in tfc is a cvar for the servers.

good idea though

o_hughj · 03-13-2005, 05:55 AM

Fast jumping techniques have been included in almost every single FPS game since Quake1/QW Regardless, it's existed long before TFC/TF existed, and it's going to be around long after FF has come and gone.

From a gameplay perspective, it makes movement more complex, gives players more to learn and more to master. For players whom refuse to learn how to learn and use said technique (regardless of the reason) are going to be at a disadvantage.. which is really no different than if a player refused to take part in any other form of technique the game uses.

As with any other skill in TFC, anything from concing to RJing to aiming. There are different levels of how good you can be at it. Even at the highest levels of clans, you can see visible differences between a good bhopper and a great bhopper.

Given equal players, there are no class-balance issues with bhopping. A bhopping soldier will always be slower than a bhopping medic, and so on.

Given unequal players, obviously there will be class-balance issues. However this applies to all other skills as well. A medic with good aim can kill an HW with bad aim. That's because we're playing an FPS, not an RTS or RPG.

Being able to bhop does not make a bad player suddenly good. I think it has more to do with bhopping being the most visibly apparent technique, so that if you do happen to see a very good player, the first thing you notice about them is that they're bhopping. People who die against those people, and feel somehow slighted by it, the first thing that comes to mind is their bhopping.

Sure, bhopping looks a little silly.. but so does a medic decked out in white surgical-wear coasting through the air in a crouching stance with his legs kicking back and forth.

o_ping_chow_chi · 03-13-2005, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eat

Granted, some players will totally miss the documentation, and some may even still believe bhopping is the devils work, but I think we can keep these people to a minority.

I cant remember the last time I read any documentation with a new game, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who just dives into a new game.

o_qbaler · 03-13-2005, 12:07 PM

THE DOCS:
ya but some docs are actualy well made. They are nicely designed web manuals (web = html/htm docs or on the web). That are easy on the eye and easy to find a whole lot of information with.

How many times have you looked for a list of cvars? had to search for the one you wanted? What if all those cvars were well organized in the manual?

How about a list of skill movements along with descriptions of them and of how to do them and possible configs to make them easier all inside one well made manual? This would allow noobs to use premade scripts and therefor take away some of the advantage the vets have (scripting.. setting my configs up in a sweet way has made my life easier and why shouldnt the noobs have easy access to this?).

How about tips and tricks for every class. So if a noob wants to learn more about a specific class all he/she has to do is go to the manual and go to their class and see the pros/cons/dos/donts/tips/tricks/ect with that class.

Map secrets: what the vets dont want you to know! I can just see this as an article somewhere of a bunch of tips for dif. maps to help noobs not be so noobish on the maps. Also one of the things noobs want/need to learn first is the map they are palying on. What a great help it would be if they could view the manual and see some great tips for the map.

All these things would help noobs out and make clear to them what the game is all about. It would allow noobs to understand the advanced skills the vets use and start to learn how to do them as well. In the end it would allow a noob to jump right in and not be a noob.

MAKE A GOOD/USEFUL MANUAL!

o_eat · 03-13-2005, 12:50 PM

Exactly qballer (why the fuck dont you have the 2nd L in your name?!

)

I admit I dont read the whole manual for every game I buy but theyre usually boring books with no pictures. Its all about how you deliver the documentation. Some of the help/info would actually be ingame so people would have no excuse for not reading it.

I even remember reading the TFC manual while I was downloading it (surely this is the best time to get a new player to read a manual). I loved the description of the game and how there were these objectives and different classes. I also remember the description was nothing like the game!

o_dirkpitt · 03-13-2005, 01:22 PM

hah I remember the description of the sniper and thinknig of a very dark forested area with a bridge over a river and a sniper hiding in the shadows. From the description I was thinking more realistic game play.

o_salo · 03-13-2005, 03:05 PM

could an admin respond to my question on page 7 about mastering bhop, thx

o_hughj · 03-14-2005, 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by salo

dev. team, you're saying bh will be a "basic" skill and should be easy for everyone to pick up.. does that mean that a relatively new player will be able to bunnyhop with the same efficiency as a top player?

the question comes down to whether it is possible to be a better bunnyhopper (perhaps a quicker one?) the more you practice and the better you get.
this would seem obvious, but how is it going to be ensured?

They say, "basic" in the sense that it'll be accepted, built-in, and considered as much a part of the game as conc jumping or anything else. "Basic" as in a core, intentional feature that will have some documentation behind what it is and how to do it.

Assuming they're not going to simply implement an auto-bhop button that does everything for you, it'll work via how you move your mouse. Then I'd say there most definitely will be different grades of bunnyhopping.. some people will be ok, good, and great at it.

o_d · 03-14-2005, 06:04 AM

first off I would like to say I am a bit surprised and pleased with the number of people mulling over my topic. I'll admit mostly off topic but done so with the best of intentions.

But I would like to shed a little light back on what this was about originally.

{quote}
"The most common thing to seen nowadays is sandbaggers. In every clan in the bottom of any league I can spot several sandbaggers. It wasn't always this way. Back when i lead a shitty team (o wait i still do) we could win a good deal of our matches in the lower brackets. Now I find someone who belongs in gold in bronze every match. Sometimes more than 1-2.

Would be nice to give noobie clans a hand in leagueplay.

anyone remember the NCL? Numeri Clan league?
or when STA 5v5's silver still had entire teams who couldn't bhop?

edit:
I've got 2 friends a few miles from where i live and i want to introduce them to league gameplay. They have been playing for about 2 months now. Does anyone think they have any hope of being able to win one of their 1st 5-6 matches if they were both on the same team?"

{end quote}

Steel Valor mentioned his thoughts on a league. I also saw something about a more community tied to main mod website. A site highlight would be The Catacombs, konspiracy SE, main league sites, clan yellow pages?(still don't know wtf that site is about lol)

What I mean the most in this thread is to try and hook some players in many ways.

*list style*
1. an easy entry into league competition. Get some way to group true NEW clans together till they are ready to compete higher.
2. along with mod distribution is docs helping understand the mod
3. heavy advertising (actual website ads? PHL? I'd donate to help make it happen)
4. Tieing the mod with it's community. Links to sites in the manual?
I didn't know about the catacombs for almost 3 years.
5. High competition rewards. Major lan endorsments of the mod. CPL QCon. Well organised world competition.
6. More people running around screaming medic and rediculously healing everyone on the team even when they have 150 hp.

*rant style*
One which did and does wonders is the [pokemon themesong] I wanna be! The very best! Like no one ever was![/pokemon themesong] getting excited enough to tell your friends I played with a plat player on Mr. Sucko's playground today!!!! OMG I MISSED IT!
I got really excited by seeing the CLQ and konspiracy stock exchange. Regardless of the fact not everything is truely accurate. (me being in the top 10 in the world at the CLQ on 28k dialup was king shit bragging rights)

One thing that really got me excited was seeing the levels of players.
bronze silver gold plat. You could litereally see the difference in the players when you watched them play. You would just know where they belonged. My 1st time in a league i got in sta 5v5 silver. (i used to think that ment something. I guess it did only back then) We had one win then a few losses. Gave up just to have the bug nag at me again and again. All it has to do is get you once. Just like pride. It's infectious. It can really make you come back again and again.

A massive player base would be oh so helpful. One of the best ways to help get that would be massive advertising. I know almost everyone watching this mod is advertising it like mad. But if you get the chance before you release the mod. Get the Chaos Films team to do some work for you. Or some professional avi makers. Anyone remember their NS trailers? NS got alot of advertiseing thoughout their development and it has become a rather large and fav mod.
**Tech TV? Arrange for a match to be done on Tech TV the day before the release!** (Hey I can dream)
I know steam's forums won't be keeping FF from being noticed. I don't mind getting a banned account or 2 there ;D Same with CS nation.

Noobs jump from favs to favs so fast. 24/7 2fort. NO! hunted!!! no i'm tired of the same maps. 2fort!!! openfire! HOLY SHIT NEO TF!
One of the best parts of being a noob is nothing ever stays the same. Some new revelation will come their way. poor hunted has to run through that yard! what? gren jump? rocket boost me? sure lets try. (strait up in the air for a HS) LET's DO IT AGAIN!!!

*more competition talk
When the CPL ended TFC tournaments the mod took a hit. Perhaps we could return the game to full pride. They try and only recognise really well done games... The mod truely has so much potential I would actually pay the $50 i payed for HL2 all over again.

Regardless of whether or not the CPL ever endorses FF it isn't the only key. Recently there has been moves to make E-Sports a national sport.

Local lan "arenas" compared to statiums. Fav teams and all that. With the potential to get as big as soccer.... (plz god no we don't want to get any smaller!)... lol!!!
To keep no mystery it's called the National E-Sports League. Still in the works but their webby is http://www.nationalesports.com/. Now before you flame it's still in prep for their release.

ok I'll admit I really double back 1/2 a milllion times to say the same thing in 8 diff ways. It's all because I tried to organise it. lol

Regardless for those of you who skim the top is the most important. the rest is the rant that helps make it all understandable or not at all.

Sorry for forcing you to read that all but I hope this helps the team and community a little.

o_shaggy · 03-14-2005, 06:28 PM

What are you sniffing D LOL. Cant even follow your chain of thoughts :P Jumping around like a jack rabbit. And It seemed like you were trying to make a point until you switched to preach mode :P But anyways to the real topic Sandbaggers. Nothing is wrong with a few sand baggers on your team. Most teams try and keep recruiting better and better in hopes of reaching the top. The problem lies when a new team is placed in too easy of a division. Now there is an exception to this rule. I wont say the name of the team but i'll call them team "a". Team "a" was a bottom bracket team. They were having problems getting a full roster to show for matches so they recruited 5 players from a gold team. With the 5 gold players they should of moved slowly out of the worst bracket but they didnt and here's why. The Gold players joined this team just to play for fun. Therefore they weren't devoted and showed up together randomly. This being the case the team still had a problem getting a full roster every match, and this senerio even sucked worse for the neighboring clans in that division. Just picture this, everytime you played this clan you either got your tail whooped because their stars showed up. Win or lose to their none gold player roster. Or Forfeit win. 2 of the 3 options arent very fun. I wish you could solve this problem, but i dont see how.

o_rebo · 03-14-2005, 07:29 PM

D, again you make some great points. Weve already tried to cover most of that but ofcourse we need to spend time developing the mod too.

Jiggles · 03-14-2005, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shaggy

Jumping around like a jack rabbit.

Or a bunnyhopper

Sorry, that was cheap :P

o_shaggy · 03-14-2005, 08:36 PM

FOR THAT comment i am not going to share the secret to world hunger :P

o_d · 03-19-2005, 04:48 AM

^ he caught me. yea I'm a bhoper. :'( I just can't stop! I jump like a lil kid who was left alone in the kitchen with a 10lbs bag of suger.

03-12-2005, 02:32 PM	#162
Jiggles Retired FF Staff Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: CowTown Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	I think the dev team needs to add a server side command called "RTFM" That way, an admin can do "rcon RTFM (1)Player," and it will instantly bring up the documentation on that player's computer (yes, that was not serious)

03-12-2005, 02:35 PM	#163
o_ivaqual Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Europe, Front Yard Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	read the fucking manual ?

03-12-2005, 02:45 PM	#164
o_salo Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Germany Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	dev. team, you're saying bh will be a "basic" skill and should be easy for everyone to pick up.. does that mean that a relatively new player will be able to bunnyhop with the same efficiency as a top player? the question comes down to whether it is possible to be a better bunnyhopper (perhaps a quicker one?) the more you practice and the better you get. this would seem obvious, but how is it going to be ensured? correct me if i'm wrong >_<

03-12-2005, 07:01 PM	#165
o_shaggy Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Salo from what i've read i believe they are making the basics easy to pick up, but i'm sure to master will take much time. OHHH i liked the idea about not allowing the best players on one team on a pub. How about the server after each round splits the teams evenly by using their stats from last round to rank then divide them accordingly.

03-12-2005, 07:21 PM	#166
o_rebo Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts Rated Helpful 1 Times	Thats a good idea shaggy ill add it to my list.

03-13-2005, 03:27 AM	#167
o_qbaler Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Boston Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	shaggy that should be a server cvar because some ppl/servers like playing with their friends and what not. Its like force balancing which in tfc is a cvar for the servers. good idea though

03-13-2005, 05:55 AM	#168
o_hughj Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Fast jumping techniques have been included in almost every single FPS game since Quake1/QW Regardless, it's existed long before TFC/TF existed, and it's going to be around long after FF has come and gone. From a gameplay perspective, it makes movement more complex, gives players more to learn and more to master. For players whom refuse to learn how to learn and use said technique (regardless of the reason) are going to be at a disadvantage.. which is really no different than if a player refused to take part in any other form of technique the game uses. As with any other skill in TFC, anything from concing to RJing to aiming. There are different levels of how good you can be at it. Even at the highest levels of clans, you can see visible differences between a good bhopper and a great bhopper. Given equal players, there are no class-balance issues with bhopping. A bhopping soldier will always be slower than a bhopping medic, and so on. Given unequal players, obviously there will be class-balance issues. However this applies to all other skills as well. A medic with good aim can kill an HW with bad aim. That's because we're playing an FPS, not an RTS or RPG. Being able to bhop does not make a bad player suddenly good. I think it has more to do with bhopping being the most visibly apparent technique, so that if you do happen to see a very good player, the first thing you notice about them is that they're bhopping. People who die against those people, and feel somehow slighted by it, the first thing that comes to mind is their bhopping. Sure, bhopping looks a little silly.. but so does a medic decked out in white surgical-wear coasting through the air in a crouching stance with his legs kicking back and forth.

03-13-2005, 12:07 PM	#170
o_qbaler Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Boston Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	THE DOCS: ya but some docs are actualy well made. They are nicely designed web manuals (web = html/htm docs or on the web). That are easy on the eye and easy to find a whole lot of information with. How many times have you looked for a list of cvars? had to search for the one you wanted? What if all those cvars were well organized in the manual? How about a list of skill movements along with descriptions of them and of how to do them and possible configs to make them easier all inside one well made manual? This would allow noobs to use premade scripts and therefor take away some of the advantage the vets have (scripting.. setting my configs up in a sweet way has made my life easier and why shouldnt the noobs have easy access to this?). How about tips and tricks for every class. So if a noob wants to learn more about a specific class all he/she has to do is go to the manual and go to their class and see the pros/cons/dos/donts/tips/tricks/ect with that class. Map secrets: what the vets dont want you to know! I can just see this as an article somewhere of a bunch of tips for dif. maps to help noobs not be so noobish on the maps. Also one of the things noobs want/need to learn first is the map they are palying on. What a great help it would be if they could view the manual and see some great tips for the map. All these things would help noobs out and make clear to them what the game is all about. It would allow noobs to understand the advanced skills the vets use and start to learn how to do them as well. In the end it would allow a noob to jump right in and not be a noob. MAKE A GOOD/USEFUL MANUAL!

03-13-2005, 12:50 PM	#171
o_eat Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Exactly qballer (why the fuck dont you have the 2nd L in your name?! ) I admit I dont read the whole manual for every game I buy but theyre usually boring books with no pictures. Its all about how you deliver the documentation. Some of the help/info would actually be ingame so people would have no excuse for not reading it. I even remember reading the TFC manual while I was downloading it (surely this is the best time to get a new player to read a manual). I loved the description of the game and how there were these objectives and different classes. I also remember the description was nothing like the game!

03-13-2005, 01:22 PM	#172
o_dirkpitt Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	hah I remember the description of the sniper and thinknig of a very dark forested area with a bridge over a river and a sniper hiding in the shadows. From the description I was thinking more realistic game play.

03-13-2005, 03:05 PM	#173
o_salo Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Germany Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	could an admin respond to my question on page 7 about mastering bhop, thx

03-14-2005, 06:04 AM	#175
o_d Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: FF website Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	first off I would like to say I am a bit surprised and pleased with the number of people mulling over my topic. I'll admit mostly off topic but done so with the best of intentions. But I would like to shed a little light back on what this was about originally. {quote} "The most common thing to seen nowadays is sandbaggers. In every clan in the bottom of any league I can spot several sandbaggers. It wasn't always this way. Back when i lead a shitty team (o wait i still do) we could win a good deal of our matches in the lower brackets. Now I find someone who belongs in gold in bronze every match. Sometimes more than 1-2. Would be nice to give noobie clans a hand in leagueplay. anyone remember the NCL? Numeri Clan league? or when STA 5v5's silver still had entire teams who couldn't bhop? edit: I've got 2 friends a few miles from where i live and i want to introduce them to league gameplay. They have been playing for about 2 months now. Does anyone think they have any hope of being able to win one of their 1st 5-6 matches if they were both on the same team?" {end quote} Steel Valor mentioned his thoughts on a league. I also saw something about a more community tied to main mod website. A site highlight would be The Catacombs, konspiracy SE, main league sites, clan yellow pages?(still don't know wtf that site is about lol) What I mean the most in this thread is to try and hook some players in many ways. list style 1. an easy entry into league competition. Get some way to group true NEW clans together till they are ready to compete higher. 2. along with mod distribution is docs helping understand the mod 3. heavy advertising (actual website ads? PHL? I'd donate to help make it happen) 4. Tieing the mod with it's community. Links to sites in the manual? I didn't know about the catacombs for almost 3 years. 5. High competition rewards. Major lan endorsments of the mod. CPL QCon. Well organised world competition. 6. More people running around screaming medic and rediculously healing everyone on the team even when they have 150 hp. rant style One which did and does wonders is the [pokemon themesong] I wanna be! The very best! Like no one ever was![/pokemon themesong] getting excited enough to tell your friends I played with a plat player on Mr. Sucko's playground today!!!! OMG I MISSED IT! I got really excited by seeing the CLQ and konspiracy stock exchange. Regardless of the fact not everything is truely accurate. (me being in the top 10 in the world at the CLQ on 28k dialup was king shit bragging rights) One thing that really got me excited was seeing the levels of players. bronze silver gold plat. You could litereally see the difference in the players when you watched them play. You would just know where they belonged. My 1st time in a league i got in sta 5v5 silver. (i used to think that ment something. I guess it did only back then) We had one win then a few losses. Gave up just to have the bug nag at me again and again. All it has to do is get you once. Just like pride. It's infectious. It can really make you come back again and again. A massive player base would be oh so helpful. One of the best ways to help get that would be massive advertising. I know almost everyone watching this mod is advertising it like mad. But if you get the chance before you release the mod. Get the Chaos Films team to do some work for you. Or some professional avi makers. Anyone remember their NS trailers? NS got alot of advertiseing thoughout their development and it has become a rather large and fav mod. Tech TV? Arrange for a match to be done on Tech TV the day before the release! (Hey I can dream) I know steam's forums won't be keeping FF from being noticed. I don't mind getting a banned account or 2 there ;D Same with CS nation. Noobs jump from favs to favs so fast. 24/7 2fort. NO! hunted!!! no i'm tired of the same maps. 2fort!!! openfire! HOLY SHIT NEO TF! One of the best parts of being a noob is nothing ever stays the same. Some new revelation will come their way. poor hunted has to run through that yard! what? gren jump? rocket boost me? sure lets try. (strait up in the air for a HS) LET's DO IT AGAIN!!! *more competition talk When the CPL ended TFC tournaments the mod took a hit. Perhaps we could return the game to full pride. They try and only recognise really well done games... The mod truely has so much potential I would actually pay the $50 i payed for HL2 all over again. Regardless of whether or not the CPL ever endorses FF it isn't the only key. Recently there has been moves to make E-Sports a national sport. Local lan "arenas" compared to statiums. Fav teams and all that. With the potential to get as big as soccer.... (plz god no we don't want to get any smaller!)... lol!!! To keep no mystery it's called the National E-Sports League. Still in the works but their webby is http://www.nationalesports.com/. Now before you flame it's still in prep for their release. ok I'll admit I really double back 1/2 a milllion times to say the same thing in 8 diff ways. It's all because I tried to organise it. lol Regardless for those of you who skim the top is the most important. the rest is the rant that helps make it all understandable or not at all. Sorry for forcing you to read that all but I hope this helps the team and community a little.

03-14-2005, 06:28 PM	#176
o_shaggy Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	What are you sniffing D LOL. Cant even follow your chain of thoughts :P Jumping around like a jack rabbit. And It seemed like you were trying to make a point until you switched to preach mode :P But anyways to the real topic Sandbaggers. Nothing is wrong with a few sand baggers on your team. Most teams try and keep recruiting better and better in hopes of reaching the top. The problem lies when a new team is placed in too easy of a division. Now there is an exception to this rule. I wont say the name of the team but i'll call them team "a". Team "a" was a bottom bracket team. They were having problems getting a full roster to show for matches so they recruited 5 players from a gold team. With the 5 gold players they should of moved slowly out of the worst bracket but they didnt and here's why. The Gold players joined this team just to play for fun. Therefore they weren't devoted and showed up together randomly. This being the case the team still had a problem getting a full roster every match, and this senerio even sucked worse for the neighboring clans in that division. Just picture this, everytime you played this clan you either got your tail whooped because their stars showed up. Win or lose to their none gold player roster. Or Forfeit win. 2 of the 3 options arent very fun. I wish you could solve this problem, but i dont see how.

03-14-2005, 07:29 PM	#177
o_rebo Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts Rated Helpful 1 Times	D, again you make some great points. Weve already tried to cover most of that but ofcourse we need to spend time developing the mod too.

03-14-2005, 08:36 PM	#179
o_shaggy Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	FOR THAT comment i am not going to share the secret to world hunger :P

03-19-2005, 04:48 AM	#180
o_d Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: FF website Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	^ he caught me. yea I'm a bhoper. :'( I just can't stop! I jump like a lil kid who was left alone in the kitchen with a 10lbs bag of suger.

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