Bunny Hopping (Bhoping) - Page 11

o_nex nicholai · 08-09-2006, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Menelec

For example, knowing how to stay just below the bhop cap constantly and actually doing it are two different things (and even then the occasional shotty in the back can mess up your bunny). FF will make this easier, so that you'll see div 5 players hopping around like they were born prem. I hear the conc jump timing has been made more forgiving too. Some people worry that the game will become a cap race.

I have faith in the dev team, and I hope they will speed up the rockets or something to compensate for the overall faster movement. At the very least it'll result in more teamwork in D.

Getting shot will still change your momentum AFAIK. It is true that there wont be a brick wall cap to deal with, but that doesnt translate into "born prem" in my book. Sometimes you take air control forgranted after you have mastered it. It still will take the same skill it took to go as fast as tfc. Set up a server with a 169% smooth cap (doesnt stop you if you hit it) and get a forgiving bhop jump bind to see what its like.

As for the game becoming a "cap race", that really underestimates anyone on D. 1) SGs will still be effective if placed well 2) pipe traps are hardly foiled by someone running into them a bit faster and 3) if you cant lead your rockets 3 inches more to the right to comp for bhop you prolly cant hit someone who is walking fast either. Not to mention the momentum killing AC that will kill any bhop.

Speed is important, but it is overrated by those who think it makes them invincible.

o_menelec · 08-09-2006, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nex nicholai

Getting shot will still change your momentum AFAIK. It is true that there wont be a brick wall cap to deal with, but that doesnt translate into "born prem" in my book. Sometimes you take air control forgranted after you have mastered it. It still will take the same skill it took to go as fast as tfc. Set up a server with a 169% smooth cap (doesnt stop you if you hit it) and get a forgiving bhop jump bind to see what its like.

Good point. Still, hopping around with sparky installed and a _special script (I've gathered FF bhop will be something similar to this) is something so smooth, anyone who knows at least the basics of bhop can make good use of it. Personally, I'm excited about this. Some people are afraid of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nex nicholai

Speed is important, but it is overrated by those who think it makes them invincible.

Never met a scout who thinks speed makes him invincible.
This becomes painfully apparent when, preparing to conc, someone shoots you up and your own conc splatters you to a bloody pulp.

o_blashy · 08-09-2006, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Circuitous

My comments are usually the opposite of ignorant in this case. Let me hit you with some knowledge.

Bunnyhopping is allowed because, if you look at clan play, it's omnipresent. There's a good reason for this, too - when you get to high-level league play in these games, maneuverability is key. Bunnyhopping is the pinnacle of movement - it allows speed and turning potential you couldn't get just by running. Now, on less organized games, it's easy enough to get away without jumping much. You're not dealing with potential lockdowns there, and it's easy enough to just shuck and jive, but when you get higher up the ladder, so to speak, it's just... it don't work. The bunnyhopping is capped based on class speed, so there's no fear of HWGuys outrunning Medics outrunning Scouts.

Now, then. With bhopping being intentionally included in the game... I mean, how is it unnatural? It's there, it's intentional. IT'S AS GOD INTENDED.

We could get more detailed, if that's not sufficient for you.

Ok, then why not eliminate it and simply increase the player speeds? No one would have to jump around.

TFC can be played FINE without the bhop, for the first year of TFC you did not see bhop and games still had caps and I'm taking top level clan matches. I will say that offense did require teamwork and not the type of play we see now where players just use medic, conc and bhop to be at the enemy base in less than 5 seconds which means you don't need coordination all that much since the offense is always in the enemy base.

If bhop is to remain just because the game needs more speed, which is not the case at all. Then simply increase the default player speeds and remove bhop.

o_qui · 08-09-2006, 04:02 PM

This is a typical argument from someone who dosnt understand bunnyhopping. Before arguing about it, please research it.

Its not just the speed movement that is beneficial but its the enhanced movement that people like about bunnyhop. Its not just because it gives greater speed, it gives a greater degree of control, allowing you to dodge rockets, people, bullets, etc..

So no, increasing the speed would not satisfy bunnyhoppers.

Youre just gonna have to deal with the fact that it is going to be in the game, because it adds new dimensions to the game, and thats not just speed.

Circuitous · 08-09-2006, 04:33 PM

Here's another reason increasing the speed is a bad idea: no friggin' control. You go from standing still to running full speed ahead, with only the tiniest bit of time spent on building that speed. You can't go slower except by walking, which is way too slow by comparison. You're ALWAYS moving faster, even when it's not advantageous, which is most of the time.

Bunnyhopping makes going faster a skill. It's something you have to learn to do, and actively implement in order to accomplish it. It's not just going faster, it's skillful maneuvering to build up speed and maintaining complete control over their momentum and direction. If all bunnyhoppers wanted was to go faster, we would've just increased the running speed years ago, but that would remove all skill from it, and actually make the game a complete hassle.

o_afx · 08-09-2006, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blashy

Ok, then why not eliminate it and simply increase the player speeds? No one would have to jump around.

TFC can be played FINE without the bhop, for the first year of TFC you did not see bhop and games still had caps and I'm taking top level clan matches. I will say that offense did require teamwork and not the type of play we see now where players just use medic, conc and bhop to be at the enemy base in less than 5 seconds which means you don't need coordination all that much since the offense is always in the enemy base.

If bhop is to remain just because the game needs more speed, which is not the case at all. Then simply increase the default player speeds and remove bhop.

Im sorry but theres so much wrong in this that i have to post, The fact is that players improved hugely over the level of those ppl playing in the first 12 months of tfc. Thats not to say that they were neccesarily better players in terms of potential skill, just that practice improves you.

If you pitted the very best from 99(you were in KiN yes?) against the best from say 02 or 03, then it wouldnt even be a contest, simply because you wouldnt cope against the well developed concing skills that came from 3+ years of playing and the speed increase from the bhopping. For that reason alone bhopping is a good thing and increases the potential skill level within the game..Anyone can run down a corridor with lots of turns, not everyone can do the same whilst bhopping.

Also you talk about coordinated attacks, well i'll say that the best clans still do coordinated attacks, they just do it a helluva lot faster than you seem to want to. Waiting around for 2 soldiers to stroll into the base and then attempting to sneak through the holes made, is no more righteous or better than playing with 4 meds or 3 meds and a scout and doing exactly the same thing...just faster.

Btw dont get me wrong, im sure if were talking American tfc and you took the likes of KiN and CE, gave em 5 years of tfc and all that brought to the game, and then pitted them against a latter top team, then we'd have a game. I just think its wrong to assume that early tfc was somehow the pinnacle of the game.

o_blashy · 08-09-2006, 05:49 PM

Nowhere do I discuss about what era is best. I'm sticking with bhoping.

I'm just saying that the game played fine when you did not have it.

The worst thing about bhop is that it is not IN the game, meaning new players see someone going up an down "weirdly" all over the place at a fast pace and they don't get what is going on and then simply get turned off.

I've only played ONE game where you had no special tricks and yet the best players would still shine, Halo 2. There is nothing the top players do in this game that a new guy can't do, yet the top players are simply playing smarter and are simply faster at the twiching skills. Put them both on a new map with the same weapon and the better player will win.

So taking away the bhop is by no means making the game dumber, it is simply making it more accessible for everyone. The top players will keep dominating.

o_afx · 08-09-2006, 05:57 PM

I do get what youre saying, and i know i had just as much fun in tfc back in 99 pre bhop, I just think anything like bhop that adds a new dimension to the game and indeed speeds it up is a good thing.

I also dont believe bhopping would put people off, personally id be intrigued and more likely to carry on playing, id wanna know how the hell they were doing it and how i could do the same. If i just picked up a game and within 90 mins i knew everything there was to know, id probably not bother with it again. Besides the bhop tutorial included with ff is going to render this all null anyway, if people want to learn to bhop then they wont find it hard to do so.

The best thing about tfc is that its not 90% about aim and twitching skills, theres so many more levels than that, bhopping just happens to be one of them.

o_afx · 08-09-2006, 05:59 PM

Anyway ill stop now, this aint about me convincing you about bhop, cos it wont happen. And anyway FF will have bhop so we should probably just agree to disagree. The bhop argument was played out 3 years ago, its even more so now.

Circuitous · 08-09-2006, 06:07 PM

For FF, bhopping IS in the game, it WILL be documented and discussed. It'll be there and obvious from the beginning, and people will know how to do it. It's no longer a guarded secret, and no longer something that you won't be able to just figure out naturally, so that argument is out the window as well.

o_toastie · 08-09-2006, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Little Dragon

Ok me and some friends where talkin about FF and about some of the Dev notes, saying that Bhopin will be alowed, why? it is not a natural thing, it increases the speeds of classes that where ment to go the speed they where made at, example, the HW is supposed to be really slow because well he's fat. Why is Bhoping going to be in FF?

**(( And Circuitous please be nice, no need for ignorant comments from you, I would jsut like an answer to my questions))**

how are you going to tell someone not to make ignorant comments when you made a whole paragraph of ignorance?

the bhopping thing was addressed by valve.... they found it to be decent for the game of TFC but limited the speed it can go up to.. just dont play ff, no1 will miss [DAD] or your server and its rules anyway

Circuitous · 08-09-2006, 06:42 PM

Except for all the people who will.

o_zaskar · 08-09-2006, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toastie

how are you going to tell someone not to make ignorant comments when you made a whole paragraph of ignorance?

the bhopping thing was addressed by valve.... they found it to be decent for the game of TFC but limited the speed it can go up to.. just dont play ff, no1 will miss [DAD] or your server and its rules anyway

Dont shit on his views if he is talking about pubs he is half right. You should explain how it will be better in FF and easier and the biggest thing, built in instructions.

On most pubs half the people had no clue, the people who did mocked them when they asked and diddnt tell them and they just go through harvesting the people that diddnt know how, by playing a soldier or HW and outrunning them.

o_ghost · 08-09-2006, 06:50 PM

"On most pubs half the people had no clue, the people who did mocked them when they asked and diddnt tell them and they just go through harvesting the people that diddnt know how, by playing a soldier or HW and outrunning them."

Well, I think they were smart enough to at least wait untill they were ripe before harvesting them.

The dev team has said countless times that they are making this game with the newbie pubber in mind. They have also said that they are developing a bunch of resources to help out new players ranging from tutorials to on screen help while playing.

o_zaskar · 08-09-2006, 06:51 PM

Just said that. it was in the sentence above the one you quoted :P

o_ghost · 08-09-2006, 07:07 PM

Dah, sorry about that. After reading your post again I now see that.

o_zaskar · 08-09-2006, 07:51 PM

its easy to get the impression that bhopping can be bad for newer players/pubs, all thats needed is to spend a hour or 2 in spec on Any pub :P

Its usually just in the know people stomping on people who don't know how. The exceptions are people who play defensive positions or snipers.

FF is gonna change that though. But it wont be uncommon to see people comming from pubs with that view. I thought it was bad for new players too till i heard their gonna have a built in tutorial to inform and teach newer players. thats so key its insane.

o_sykt · 08-09-2006, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by silencer

deadpool im probably one of the only people here that knows of |KoD|the_ROCK besides some of the devs... haha its always fun to hear names from the way past... i used to love pubbing in the KoD Dugeon of Death or something along those lines.

+1

<< Formerly |KoD|Slash

Can't wait to get my hands on this. Lookin great so far

o_pushit · 08-12-2006, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaskar

its easy to get the impression that bhopping can be bad for newer players/pubs, all thats needed is to spend a hour or 2 in spec on Any pub :P

Its usually just in the know people stomping on people who don't know how. The exceptions are people who play defensive positions or snipers.

i don't play defense or sniper. i play O for my clan, and when i pub i'm either dicking around the entire time or capturing the entire time. and during this time i'm constantly bunnyhopping. if you see "pushit" "badmotorfinger" or "spoonman" in a pub, that's me.

and if someone happens to ask why i'm "jumping around all crazy like that" i tell them what it is and offer to teach them. i couldn't possibly tell you the time i've spent teaching people how to bunnyhop from scratch.

just because you're "in the know" about bunnyhopping doesn't automatically make you an arrogant, egotistical bastard. there are more exceptions to your "exceptions" rule.

o_zaskar · 08-12-2006, 02:56 PM

You fall in the minority, most just call em noobs for thinking its speedhacks and then mock them endlessly.

08-09-2006, 04:33 PM	#205
Circuitous Useless Retired FF Staff Join Date: Jun 2005 Class/Position: D Soldier, O Scout Gametype: AvD Posts Rated Helpful 9 Times	Here's another reason increasing the speed is a bad idea: no friggin' control. You go from standing still to running full speed ahead, with only the tiniest bit of time spent on building that speed. You can't go slower except by walking, which is way too slow by comparison. You're ALWAYS moving faster, even when it's not advantageous, which is most of the time. Bunnyhopping makes going faster a skill. It's something you have to learn to do, and actively implement in order to accomplish it. It's not just going faster, it's skillful maneuvering to build up speed and maintaining complete control over their momentum and direction. If all bunnyhoppers wanted was to go faster, we would've just increased the running speed years ago, but that would remove all skill from it, and actually make the game a complete hassle. __________________ Look at all those dead links.

08-09-2006, 06:07 PM	#210
Circuitous Useless Retired FF Staff Join Date: Jun 2005 Class/Position: D Soldier, O Scout Gametype: AvD Posts Rated Helpful 9 Times	For FF, bhopping IS in the game, it WILL be documented and discussed. It'll be there and obvious from the beginning, and people will know how to do it. It's no longer a guarded secret, and no longer something that you won't be able to just figure out naturally, so that argument is out the window as well. __________________ Look at all those dead links.

08-09-2006, 06:42 PM	#212
Circuitous Useless Retired FF Staff Join Date: Jun 2005 Class/Position: D Soldier, O Scout Gametype: AvD Posts Rated Helpful 9 Times	Except for all the people who will. __________________ Look at all those dead links.

08-09-2006, 04:02 PM	#204
o_qui Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bournemouth, England Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	This is a typical argument from someone who dosnt understand bunnyhopping. Before arguing about it, please research it. Its not just the speed movement that is beneficial but its the enhanced movement that people like about bunnyhop. Its not just because it gives greater speed, it gives a greater degree of control, allowing you to dodge rockets, people, bullets, etc.. So no, increasing the speed would not satisfy bunnyhoppers. Youre just gonna have to deal with the fact that it is going to be in the game, because it adds new dimensions to the game, and thats not just speed.

08-09-2006, 05:49 PM	#207
o_blashy Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts Rated Helpful 1 Times	Nowhere do I discuss about what era is best. I'm sticking with bhoping. I'm just saying that the game played fine when you did not have it. The worst thing about bhop is that it is not IN the game, meaning new players see someone going up an down "weirdly" all over the place at a fast pace and they don't get what is going on and then simply get turned off. I've only played ONE game where you had no special tricks and yet the best players would still shine, Halo 2. There is nothing the top players do in this game that a new guy can't do, yet the top players are simply playing smarter and are simply faster at the twiching skills. Put them both on a new map with the same weapon and the better player will win. So taking away the bhop is by no means making the game dumber, it is simply making it more accessible for everyone. The top players will keep dominating.

08-09-2006, 05:57 PM	#208
o_afx Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Walsall,UK Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	I do get what youre saying, and i know i had just as much fun in tfc back in 99 pre bhop, I just think anything like bhop that adds a new dimension to the game and indeed speeds it up is a good thing. I also dont believe bhopping would put people off, personally id be intrigued and more likely to carry on playing, id wanna know how the hell they were doing it and how i could do the same. If i just picked up a game and within 90 mins i knew everything there was to know, id probably not bother with it again. Besides the bhop tutorial included with ff is going to render this all null anyway, if people want to learn to bhop then they wont find it hard to do so. The best thing about tfc is that its not 90% about aim and twitching skills, theres so many more levels than that, bhopping just happens to be one of them.

08-09-2006, 05:59 PM	#209
o_afx Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Walsall,UK Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Anyway ill stop now, this aint about me convincing you about bhop, cos it wont happen. And anyway FF will have bhop so we should probably just agree to disagree. The bhop argument was played out 3 years ago, its even more so now.

08-09-2006, 06:50 PM	#214
o_ghost Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	"On most pubs half the people had no clue, the people who did mocked them when they asked and diddnt tell them and they just go through harvesting the people that diddnt know how, by playing a soldier or HW and outrunning them." Well, I think they were smart enough to at least wait untill they were ripe before harvesting them. The dev team has said countless times that they are making this game with the newbie pubber in mind. They have also said that they are developing a bunch of resources to help out new players ranging from tutorials to on screen help while playing.

08-09-2006, 06:51 PM	#215
o_zaskar Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: NY Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Just said that. it was in the sentence above the one you quoted :P

08-09-2006, 07:07 PM	#216
o_ghost Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Dah, sorry about that. After reading your post again I now see that.

08-09-2006, 07:51 PM	#217
o_zaskar Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: NY Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	its easy to get the impression that bhopping can be bad for newer players/pubs, all thats needed is to spend a hour or 2 in spec on Any pub :P Its usually just in the know people stomping on people who don't know how. The exceptions are people who play defensive positions or snipers. FF is gonna change that though. But it wont be uncommon to see people comming from pubs with that view. I thought it was bad for new players too till i heard their gonna have a built in tutorial to inform and teach newer players. thats so key its insane.

08-12-2006, 02:56 PM	#220
o_zaskar Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: NY Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	You fall in the minority, most just call em noobs for thinking its speedhacks and then mock them endlessly.

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