N people always beat <<N

[Circuitous]

You can be as helpful as you want and still come off as an elitist. That's exactly what he did. Calling yourself "another breed," seperating yourself from every other player, just because you're abstractly good at a class, is pure elitism. That's all there is to it, regardless of how "justified" it might be.

[o_lord asriel]

Originally Posted by Lord Asriel

Same thing like if all the comunity didn't use the concs to fly and he came and said "I have mastered the conc and when people see me do this they ban me from their servers". Then he would be an elitist again, right?

You have two mistakes there Bruen....I mean Circuitous :P

1) Seperation is different from elitism. "seperating yourself from every other player, just because you're abstractly good at a class, is pure elitism" No, this is seperation. Elitism is closed for a group. No one can get in. You wouldn't be able to ever learn quicksniping if he was elitist. Or you would be able but he wouldn't tell so that he could be the one.

2) And even then, the reason he seperated was not overall skill "you're abstractly good at a class", but rather having mastered a technique you don't know. A concing scout is a *seperate* thing from a non-concing one.

A common problem is that we gamers tend to use the world "Elite" meaning "very skilled" and when someone comes and claims being skilled we can call him "elitist". That's deceptive, however, and untrue.

[Circuitous]

Skill doesn't really factor into this. He's suggesting he's different from all the rest of us, somehow better, because he's good at this class in any of a myriad of ways. It's total bullshit - he's a TFC player just like all the rest of us that ever tried the game. Is he good? Sure. Does that make him somehow different? No, not really. Insisting you're seperate from everyone else because of your skill, real or imagined, is elitism.

[o_lord asriel]

I think you mess "He has a difference" with "He is different". Although they have the same meaning, "He is different" tends to mean "He is BETTER". IF you want, I can compromise on this. But he HAS the differency: He DOES quicksnipe, and he asks if it will be implemented, and you DONT. The other ppl who DO this thing, they have made a league; most of the rest do NOT. It is like me telling you that I have the x random skill (say, riding horses) and this makes us different, and you say no we are not different and you are an elitist.

[Circuitous]

You're entirely neglecting context here, which makes it difficult to explain my position.

[o_yoda891]

Originally Posted by Lord Asriel

I think you mess "He has a difference" with "He is different". Although they have the same meaning, "He is different" tends to mean "He is BETTER". IF you want, I can compromise on this. But he HAS the differency: He DOES quicksnipe, and he asks if it will be implemented, and you DONT. The other ppl who DO this thing, they have made a league; most of the rest do NOT. It is like me telling you that I have the x random skill (say, riding horses) and this makes us different, and you say no we are not different and you are an elitist.

As long as we're taking this out of context, I have a little story that could help you understand what circ is trying to say, maybe.
Let's say we both golf. I am experienced in balancing golf clubs on my nose(quicksniping). Therefore, you have no idea what is required and how vital a skill this is to golf(becuase you don't know how to quicksnipe), and I think that my modified golfing league(tfc sniping league) that gives you points when you balance the golf clubs(quicksnipe, kills) you aren't using on your face, unless you're hitting, has some talents that need to be included in the new PGA Rulebook(FF). See, the thing is, no one else understands, because I'm Different(what B||oodSire was saying.)

The same reasoning applies to TFC if you replace words in there with "quicksnipe", "competitive TFC", "tfc", and "FF"

[o_bokko]

N People what? To the majority this guy came off as arrogant, if you don't like it then show more tact.

[o_lord asriel]

Originally Posted by yoda891

and I think that my modified golfing league(tfc sniping league) that gives you points when you balance the golf clubs(quicksnipe, kills) you aren't using on your face, unless you're hitting, has some talents that need to be included in the new PGA Rulebook(FF).

1) I do not think balancing golf clubs on your nose could make you a better player in golf. More like an eccentric person. Indeed I would not agree with him if he was requestic something eccentric like shooting the rifle at the sky, so a bird dies, drops and kills someone. It was about a technique used to make kills.

2) A league can not have talents. People have talents. I don't get you.

3) He requests something that exists to stay. It'd be more accurate if you said that "Since it was inside the OLD PGA rulebook please make it be in the new too". And the whole situation is about "Hey, we didn't read the old pga rulebook so well, so since he's asking that he is elitist and arrogant".

[o_nezumi]

Originally Posted by Lord Asriel

1) Well, the fact that there are both yes and nos [in the poll] justifies its existence, no?

No. What relevance is the result of the poll to this argument? Of course this sort of thing happens. Maybe if the poll had asked 'did this happen to B||oodsire' it would be somehow pertinant.

Originally Posted by Lord Asriel

2) Conversation does not work in a "if I see I'm powerful I start mocking" way.

Yes it does, of course it does. That's what happened in the thread with B||oodsire, and it's why you made this thread, remember? Maybe ideally it shouldn't, but conversations do progress this way sometimes.

Originally Posted by Lord Asriel

sarcasm is a thing that creates *only* negative stuff. Noone gains from it. And actually, I am trying very hard not to use it on your comment.

No way. Sarcasm is a perfectly usefull rhetorical tool, if you use it right. Kinda like exclamation points and swear words.

Originally Posted by Lord Asriel

And remember, elitist means "I am elite and you will never be", not "I am elite but you can try to be too". That is skilled, not elite. Elitism indicates closed groups.

This is also factually incorrect. Elitism does not necessarily imply a closed group. Elitism simply means that certain individuals with a perceived difference believe they deserve to be treated in a certain way. In this case, B||oodsire thought that he could demand a feature just because he was such an Uber sniper. Maybe this isn't the way he intended it, but it's certainly the way he came off. He SHOULD have realised that he was going to piss a lot of people off by the wording of his post.

In any case, multiple threads have been made about speed sniping and I'm sure the devs have taken it into consideration. I'm not sure what you hope to accomplish with this thread but you sound redicculous arguing semantics and getting further and further from any point you may have originally had.

[o_lord asriel]

Originally Posted by Nezumi

Of course this sort of thing happens.

Some people do not think so. Check last of my quotes in this post.

Originally Posted by Nezumi

Maybe ideally it shouldn't, but conversations do progress this way sometimes.

Indeed I mean "ideally".

Originally Posted by Nezumi

No way. Sarcasm is a perfectly usefull rhetorical tool, if you use it right. Kinda like exclamation points and swear words.

You know, an M4 in your hands at war is a perfectly usefull war tool. Yet, from a grander scope, it does no good. That means that sarcasm is good in conversation only as long as its level is that of the level of sense of war. I don't suppose people do not have primitive insticts, but wars are not made because of our race prons, but rather cons.

The grandest rhetors are said to be ancient Greek ones, and you'll find no darn point of sarcasm in their speeches. But if you don't really have a point to make but rather 10 persons who are equally unable to make one, and you STILL think it makes sense to prove yourself because else you're not decent or something, then "Sarcasm is a perfectly usefull rhetorical tool".

Originally Posted by Nezumi

This is also factually incorrect. Elitism does not necessarily imply a closed group. Elitism simply means that certain individuals with a perceived difference believe they deserve to be treated in a certain way.

Your sentences do not agree with each other.

"Certain individuals" is not a group?

Did you not mean "...in a certain way, differently than the others"?

If yes, is "differently" not a closed group? I mean, if you just can join them, what makes the difference between them and the others?
If no, what is the matter if *they* get treated some way and the rest are treated the same way?

In this case, B||oodsire thought that he could demand a feature just because he was such an Uber sniper. Maybe this isn't the way he intended it, but it's certainly the way he came off.

It is not fair to assume someone's intention, but from what I think, Bloodsire demanded a feature just because he was a tfc player, and he put all this league and skill stuff in there to prove this is not another silly person making a silly selfish request but rather this is a widespread and important technique.
How else could he be seen from the devs as an important post in the endless ideas and suggestions forums?

A guy who is here just to say I PWN JOO ALL AND YOULL DO WHAT I SAY would not post like bloodsire. I do not want to make examples of this as it would involve other persons of the board. But just check how many apologies, even for things he didn't need to. That's not the way such persons speak.

Originally Posted by Nezumi

He SHOULD have realised that he was going to piss a lot of people off by the wording of his post.

Yes he should, but this shouldn't happen (ideally), and that's what my post's for.

Originally Posted by Nezumi

In any case, multiple threads have been made about speed sniping and I'm sure the devs have taken it into consideration. I'm not sure what you hope to accomplish with this thread but you sound redicculous arguing semantics and getting further and further from any point you may have originally had.

Surely I am not trying to get quicksniping be in the mod, I don't know it and I do not care! What I hope to accomplish is state my opinion and have a dialogue, as it happens in every post?...I am not far from my point. Actually, with a few exceptions including you, I think I am arguing with people who think "no" is the right vote.

[o_sidd42]

Originally Posted by Lord Asriel

The grandest rhetors are said to be ancient Greek ones, and you'll find no darn point of sarcasm in their speeches.

Socrates invented sarcasm.

Originally Posted by Lord Asriel

"sarcasm" is a greek word ...

The greek work 'sarkasmos' doesn't mean quite the same as the english word 'sarcasm'

Originally Posted by Lord Asriel

elitist means "I am elite and you will never be"

No it doesn't. You really shouldn't try arguing semantics in anything other than your first language. Most words have more than one meaning.

[o_nezumi]

Originally Posted by Lord Asriel

Indeed I mean "ideally".

Well, good luck having an ideal discusison on the internet.
But I guess I can't fault you for trying. *shrug*

Originally Posted by Lord Asriel

You know, an M4 in your hands at war is a perfectly usefull war tool. Yet, from a grander scope, it does no good. That means that sarcasm is good in conversation only as long as its level is that of the level of sense of war. I don't suppose people do not have primitive insticts, but wars are not made because of our race prons, but rather cons.

The grandest rhetors are said to be ancient Greek ones, and you'll find no darn point of sarcasm in their speeches. But if you don't really have a point to make but rather 10 persons who are equally unable to make one, and you STILL think it makes sense to prove yourself because else you're not decent or something, then "Sarcasm is a perfectly usefull rhetorical tool".

I'm really sorry. I'm honestly trying to carry out a conversation but this paragraph makes
no sense.

Originally Posted by Lord Asriel

Your sentences do not agree with each other.
"Certain individuals" is not a group?

One person can be a group of 1. This is not a contradiction. But again we're arguing semantics, which is stupid. My wording meant that among a group of 1 or more people who have something in common (this thing qualifies them as elite), they believe they should be treated in a certain way. The way they believe should be treated doesn't necessarily have anything to do with what makes them elite. There is also no condition on the word 'elite' that necessarily implies that their group be closed. It could be argued that a group has to have conditional inclusion to be elite. For example, there is an elite class of people in the United States who are allowed to drive vehicles on public roads. These are people with drivers licenses. Anyone can get a lisence if they are at least 16 years old.
In the same way, snipers who can quicksnipe may be considered elite because they are the ones who have the time and patience to invest in learning this skill, as well as the interest in playin sniper, playing against other good snipers, etc.
B||oodsier came off as elite because it sounded like he was demanding quicksniping be in FF because he was such a good sniper, regardless of his intentions.

Originally Posted by Lord Asriel

It is not fair to assume someone's intention

Wrong. It is inevitable. That's what happens when you communicate. Especially if you're not being as clear as you can be (which B||oodsire wasn't)

Originally Posted by Lord Asriel

Bloodsire demanded a feature just because he was a tfc player, and he put all this league and skill stuff in there to prove this is not another silly person making a silly selfish request but rather this is a widespread and important technique.

So he was among the select group of people who had put the time and effort into learning TFC and therefore believe he deserved the special treatment of having his idea listened to over the idea of someone who is inexperienced. Elitism! (Not that I blame him, in this case. I sound hard on B||ood but to be honest I felt he got a rather harsher response than he deserved. My only beef was that he kept going on about his superior sniping skills to a forum full of TFC/TF veterans.)

Originally Posted by Lord Asriel

How else could he be seen from the devs as an important post in the endless ideas and suggestions forums?

The answer is, he shouldn't! We're all TFC veterans here. And even if we weren't I don't think the devs are going to pay attention to a suggestion just because someone has been playing the game for a long time, but because they could provide a well reasoned rational for why the idea would benefit TF gamelpay. This is actually something that B||oodsire failed to do. This is exactly why everyone came down on him.

Originally Posted by Lord Asriel

What I hope to accomplish is state my opinion and have a dialogue, as it happens in every post?...

Well, I might have a reputation for arguing just for fun so I guess I really can't blame you. It seems like a wierd topic but typing this out was kinda entertaining.

[o_lord asriel]

After a looong time I saw this post....well, although I have points for it, I sense it is meaningless to continue....but

Originally Posted by Nezumi

I'm really sorry. I'm honestly trying to carry out a conversation but this paragraph makes
no sense.

That was really fun!!

Just for the sake of it, I was trying to say that sarcasm is a rhetorical tool as long as the purpose of your conversation is to "beat" the other, instead of trying to maximize the mutual and total benefit. This is the same as war, which can not be avoided, but ideally should be

I might argue about the rest but....another time :P

[o_kbomb]

This is somewhat irrelevant to the larger debate - but when he said he was "a different breed" how does that imply "better" at all? I read that as him saying he plays the game a completly different way (snipers only, which obviously IS a completly different way to play the game - at least at a competitve level.)

[o_nezumi]

A sense of 'betterness' is implicit in the idiom.

Imo anyway. That's certainly how I took it.