Q&A 5 - Q&A Now: Redux

[Ihmhi]

Welcome to Week 5 of Fortress Forever's Developer Question & Answer sessions, where we take questions from the community and get devs off their bums to answer them!

All are welcome to participate. Simply visit this thread in our forums and drop your question in!

http://fortress-forever.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=16481

And after the questions, we have an interview with one of the devs who have been around the longest, redux! (Apparently, his name has absolutely nothing to do with ducks at all. I'm as surprised as you are.)

Before we get started, I'd like to state a change in the weekly Q&As. A lot of devs get involved in the answers, and I tend to just edit them together into something that covers the subject nicely. Since it comes from multiple people, we'll no longer be listing which devs have answered the questions. I'd really prefer not to show (trepid_jon, Pon, Nezumi, redux) and five other dev names after each answer.



Question 1 ( reaper18 and many, many other people ):
When will the 2.1 changelog be posted? Is there an ETA on 2.1's arrival? When 2.1 will out? etc.

Answer 1:
This is something that was told to the beta testers a long time ago, and I will gladly tell it to everyone else. The dev team has an internal checklist - stuff they would like to get done for the next patch. Currently, about 95% of the checklist is green - green meaning done - but that does not represent the total completion of the patch. If my list was "add a new texture" and "rebalance HW", those are two items on a list but each includes different kinds of work. But yes, the internal checklist is mostly done.

FF tends to shy away from setting a release date. We probably could have been done a month ago, but .dt. (one of our new coders) had a little problem where his laptop got all messed up on him and he couldn't code anymore.

When we do have the patch done, we will probably go with something like a week's advance notice. We'll also probably release the server package a little bit early so server operators can get updates in place and relate any problems to us that might show up. And of course, we prefer to test the installer packages and make sure they work so we don't release something broken to the community.



Question 2 ( reaper18 ):
Have any changes been made to canal zone?

Answer 2 :
2.1 ff_cz2 (Canalzone2) is fun. That's all you really need to know now.

Buuut if you want the details... flags have basically been removed altogether. Now pretty much anyone can walk over a point and cap it. The map's teleporters are useful for helping to move your team to defend a point you still control.

One of the important elements of gameplay design is to get people to play the map the way you intended it to be played. In FF, that usually just means "Have fun". Frankly, cz2 was not getting played. It was slow and arduous - pretty much the exact opposite of what makes FF fun. Beta testers now love playing cz2, and we hope that that same love carries over to the general public.

I'm sure many server operators have taken cz2 off of their map rotations because it's made players leave as if the server were on fire. We hope that server ops will give cz2 a second chance in 2.1.

And damn it reaper18, if you don't stop asking such good questions there's not gonna be any left for other people.



Question 3 ( im2cool4uroflolz, v!be<<<Ampersand ):
What changes are being made to the Demoman in 2.1?

Answer 3:
Most notably, the Demoman's blue pipe timer has been extended from 1.1 seconds to 1.3 seconds.

The devs were caught between a rock and a hard place with the blue pipe timer. Originally, 2.2 seconds was deemed too hard for newbies to be able to use. If you can't get a hit with a blue pipe, then you have to try and aim it so the explosion happens when you want it to. 2.2 seconds was also far too spammable - you could just have a bunch of pipes clogging up a chokepoint which results in some very effective (but very spammy) area denial.

As a result, the timer was reduced to 1.1 seconds. Now we have pro demos saying that the timer is either too short (reduced range) or is too easy for newbies to hit targets with. Initially some of our testers advocated bringing the timer up to 1.5, but we eventually came to a compromise of 1.3 seconds. Those 0.2 seconds counts for a lot towards balance and extensive playtesting has shown that it works pretty well. We think nearly everyone will be satisfied with it.

There are not really any other significant changes being made to the Demoman. Take a look at the changelog when 2.1 comes out for the full details!



Question 4 ( im2cool4uroflolz ):
Are there any changes being made to Aardvark?

Answer 4:
No significant changes are being made to Aardvark. Nearly every map has little hidden optimization and balance changes uring patches, but nothing really big is going to happen with Aardvark in this patch.



Question 5 ( v!be<<<Ampersand ):
Hey guys, new to Fortress Forever here, just in case you're wondering why I popped out of nowhere =P Pretty badass mod so far.

That said, I've heard FF is converting to the Orange Box Engine? I'm definitely a Demoman player and I love the way the grenades from his launcher bounce in TF2. Once the conversion is complete, will they bounce that way in FF? Actually, I guess the better question to ask would be; Will conversion to the Orange Box Engine change the game's physics in any way? [forgive me, I don't know a lot about game engines, so sorry if that's a stupid question =\ ]

Answer 5:
So we have a huge question that's mostly about the conversion to the Orange Box.

Let's start with the disappointing news: FF will not be converting to the Orange Box for 2.1. We would have to delay 2.1 for months just to convert the code with the staff we have on hand.

And now, the good news. Conversion to OB is one of our priorities for 2.2. There's a 95% chance that 2.2 will be the debut of Orange Box for FF. What does this mean?

We'll be able to take advantage of all of the nice graphical things that OB has available to it, like the particle system used extensively in Half Life 2: Episode 2.

We'd rather not get into the extreme techincal details of it, but Orange Box will give our developers more tools to make the game run smoother and look nicer in general. The conversion to OB will show a much improved FF overall.

We really wish we could tell you more about it, but there's a lot that we're still planning and thinking about. Saying that anything is definite would be lying.

As for the Demoman, the major Demoman change (blue pipe timer) has been addressed in a previous question.



Dev Interview: redux

Ihmhi: Dux, are ye around?

redux: What's up?

Ihmhi: I'd like to do your dev interview now - do you have time?

redux: sure but i may be in and out for a few minutes

redux: im in the middle of painting a repainting a pinball cabinet and its about to rain again

redux: fire away though

Ihmhi: See, that's interesting material. Let's start with that, rather than my traditional starting question. Why are you painting a pinball cabinet, and what pinball game is it? I personally love how they can turn physical information (gears, switches, bumpers) into a GAME.

redux: I collect pinball machines in my spare time. The game is Spirit of 76 by Gottlieb. It is an Electro Mechanical pinball, which means there are no circuit boards. Everything is driven by electrical switches and gear driven mechanisms. I also own modern solid state games which are circuit board and CPU driven. Most of my games are from the 1990's.

Ihmhi: Wow man, that's the kind of shit I like. I'm the same way with lots of stuff like that. I have this handheld (handheld being the side of a football) video game from Radio Shack that's basically a Space Invaders ripoff. I still play it to this day, so I completely understand where you're coming from.

redux: I picked this game up from another collector near Dallas and figured I'd try my hand at a full restoration. It should look pretty close like it came out of the factory when I am done with it. Parts are hard to find however so we will see how it will turn out.

Ihmhi: Before my next question, I'd like to pimp one of Iggy's favorite websites out to you and the readers - http://www.atariage.com. The guys there know a lot about hardware and odds are there's a guy who knows about machines if you have questions.

Ihmhi: Aaand now to my traditional-first-question-which-is-now-the-second-question: how did you come to be on the dev team?

redux: I've helped test Fortress Forever since before the 1.0 release. I never really had the time to map though because I was taking 22 and 21 hour semesters of college.

Ihmhi: Wow. I'm a newbie mapper, and I personally think I'd be frustrated with trying to do anything in the pre-release environment. Server crashes were abundant and fixed very slowly - it must have been a bear to test out new stuff.

redux: It was tough testing sometimes because of a lot of crashing bugs. It was neat though seeing the list of bugs being reduced before release. The mod really has come a long way since then.

redux: It was great seeing all of the content progress even before the release. A change that I really remember best is the Shutdown2 makeover. We thought it was crazy good as it was, then Defrag made it into what it is now.

Ihmhi: I loved the SD2 remake as well. The first one was a good Source map, but it didn't really have its own identity. Defrag made it seem more alive.

Ihmhi: Speaking of mapping, you're working on a new project - return. I've been working with mapping myself, and honestly every time I look at something you, Defrag, Nezumi, etc. cook up I feel like a kindergartner with a finger painting trying to get into the Louvre. What tips can you give to new mappers to add that level to detail to your maps - basically, how do you make your maps look so damn good?

redux: Return was kind of a reintroduction to mapping for me, as the last map I released was in 2002 or so. I am not sure if I want to continue that map as I did a lot of things wrong with it. It was a great start on Source engine mapping as I hadn't done it before. Source mapping is a lot more time consuming than HL1 engine maps were by a long shot. As far as mapping tips go, when I started out I always had problems with lighting. I had a push style map in TFC titled 'pushed' that I was really satisfied with visually, but never really got the lighting right. After it was released, I learned better lighting techniques which I applied to maps after that. I would say ask for a source file from someone just to see how they did things. Things can look a lot different in Hammer compared to in game.

redux: I would also suggest texture variation and application. Simple geometry can look great if it is textured well.

Ihmhi: That's very useful information that a lot of mappers will appreciate - especially myself. Thanks for that.

Ihmhi: On the same subject, I have some very insane ideas for maps. Like most mappers (especially new ones), I'm very protective of them. Do you have any really crazy and/or outlandish ideas for maps that you'd be willing to describe in detail? Basically, your dream map.

redux: To be honest, I think that maps with simple goals are better received. Back in TFC, some mappers tried some crazy stuff and it just never played out very well. The maps that got played were ones with easy to understand goals, such as CTF, AvD, etc. I did like the map run, as it was kind of a crazy idea at the time but worked really well. I think something like that would be great in Fortress Forever. Though not outlandish, I really enjoy King of the Hill style maps. As far as a dream map, I would like to have a map that is a new idea, but simple enough for everyone to understand and enjoy. I'm still trying to come up with that one.

Ihmhi: So basically, the holy grail of mapping. Well, at least people can't say you don't dream big!

Ihmhi: Hey, why not combine two interests into one and make a map that's a giant pinball machine. I'm sure your implementation would be fun and the scoring would be very accurate!

redux: The funny thing is I thought about doing that, even just for novelty's sake.

Ihmhi: Man, you completely should do it. When this Q&A goes up, I'm sure a lot of people will agree with you on that point. I'd love to see it, and you can combine two of your hobbies into one uber-hobby. It's like quad damage, but for fun!

redux: haha, yeah

redux: It would be a fun project.

Ihmhi: See man, now if you don't do it a whole lotta people will be disappointed. So basically I've just guilted you into mapping. I wonder if that's how the big companies do it, haha.

redux: Start waving Dollar bills at me and it'll be out next week!

Ihmhi: Well I know mervaka carries around a lot of Dollar bills, but that's mostly for strip clubs and riding the bus since he destroyed his van. Maybe he'll chip in!

redux: He'd better.

Ihmhi: Well technically he has Sterling Pounds, so that's like two Dollars in one! Very compact.

redux: hehe

Ihmhi: Back onto the mapping topic. You're working on bases now, correct?

redux: Yes, I am finishing it where Defrag left off.

Ihmhi: This brings up an interesting point - no one mapper has really worked on any FF Dev map. It's usually two or more guys working on it during different stages. What have you personally brought to bases?

redux: When I first started working on the map, most of the geometry was done. The ramp room and the small hallways were just an empty shell, and there was only one spawn room. There were a lot of other touches that hadn't been added in yet, such as some lighting, signs, and other brushwork.

redux: The main problem with the map was that it exceeded the brush and entity limits when the bases were flipped. FPS was really bad in most of the places so that had to be worked out as well. I had to tear down and rebuild some areas to get the limits down, while still trying to add new stuff.

redux: This would not have been possible without Crazy Carl who turned in a lot of brushwork into props. He really helped out a lot.

Ihmhi: The other testers and I noticed this blatant cheating and plan to do the very same for our own maps whenever we get around to doing them.

redux: When everything was almost complete, I handed the map over to Elmo-, who is a genius at optimization. He really helped out a lot at getting the frame rate to a good level. When he handed it back, I was awestruck at how he had optimized everything.

redux: Using props in a map is a great way to go as it saves a ton of geometry to be used for other sections.

Ihmhi: A lot of testers initially complained about low FPS and other graphics issues when they came on-board the pre-release team. Part of it was unoptimized coding, but a lot of it was probably unoptimized mapping as well. I'm sure you must have looked at more than one of the VMFs - are there any maps that could have insanely better FPS with optimization?

redux: Most of the ones I have looked at are optimized pretty well. I could see a few spots that could be optimized to reduce compile time though. I imagine Elmo could spot a lot more things than I could however.

Ihmhi: Have you learned anything looking at the optimizations that Elmo- and Crazy Carl have done? Ideally, the dev mappers would learn enough of the tricks where they can't really do much to improve the maps and then they would be on the street, homeless and naked. Well, good for them, bad for us.

redux: I've learned a lot to be honest. Hint brushes and areaportals were areas I really didn't understand until I saw them used correctly. Elmo- went over with me and showed me how to use hint brushes better also.

Ihmhi: Something I've been meaning to ask many of the devs - a lot of you guys seem to work in the game industry or are going to college to eventually get into the game industry. Do you work on games for your job, or do you do something totally boring and normal?

redux: I am still in college, but am considering a job in the game industry when I graduate. Regardless what I do, I will still do it as a hobby.

Ihmhi: More than a few devs have already gone off to work for other game companies. I'm personally excited about trying to get them to confirm what games they've worked on. Maybe five or ten years from now people will be playing a game on the XBOX 720 that you had a hand in.

redux: I just hope that if I do get a job in the game industry i won't end up hating game design.

Ihmhi: Things sort of change when you can't pick and choose what you want to make. I've thought about it and would rather be in a creative position like level design rather than a "make this level happen" position like mappers.

redux: Very true.

Ihmhi: My last question for you - something I personally haven't been able to figure out. What does redux mean? Is that replying to a duck's e-mail? A copy of a duck? Or is it not even remotely duck-related?

redux: Haha, its was in a list of something a friend had back when I was in 7th grade. We were coming up with 5 character nicknames so I picked that one because I liked the way it sounded. In the dictionary it means brought back, or returned. It is also the name of a diet pill that was banned many years ago.

Ihmhi: Oh right, like Apocalypse Now: Redux. How could I have forgotten that? Congratulations, you've made me feel stupid.

Ihmhi: Actually, scratch the congratulations, it isn't all that hard. Thanks for the interview!

redux: Thanks for interviewing me, see you soon.

Ihmhi: The same to you!

[Skanky Butterpuss]

tl:dr

[chilledsanity]

Cool, as for the demoman, I've brought this up a couple times now, but I simply don't understand why blue pipes have to be just a single timer as opposed to a short and a long one. I want to list the arguments I've heard against it, and my response:

"It will divide the community" I don't think an extra option will divide the community, players will still be able to pick what timers they like. I don't see how it's any more divisive than having different timers for a detpack.

"Longer times are too spammy in controlling areas" Only for a few seconds, the demoman still has to reload his 6 shot gun, which gives the enemy a break to push through.

"Players need to know what timer an enemy pipe is on" I disagree with this, but this problem could be solved by adding the "halos" like grenades have or by giving them a slightly different coloring (light v. dark pipes)

"Different timers/colors will confuse new players" I doubt this, especially if there was a display on the gun saying "1.3s timer, 2.5s timer" etc. FF has many complex elements to it (like rules for spy cloaking, dispenser detonating, pyro combos, etc.), I have faith that new players can figure out what a different timer means. If they can't, they'll have a much harder time with other elements of the game anyway.

I don't care about the timer so much as the RANGE of blue pipes. I heard one person before suggesting a more dynamic system for shooting out blue pipes at faster speeds depending on how much you charge it. I think this could be a good compromise as well.

I'm not advocating that these need to be implemented in 2.1, just that I wouldn't call the issue over. The OP even says that developers have had a hard time with it, because they're trying to compromise different extremes. I'm after more of a "best of both worlds" approach.


EDIT: Will there be an option to remove the blue trails from the pipes that were added in 2.0? Turning trails off in the Fortress Options currently does not affect this.

[Rutabeggar]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

"Longer times are too spammy in controlling areas" Only for a few seconds, the demoman still has to reload his 6 shot gun, which gives the enemy a break to push through.

While I realize this isn't TFC nor made to be a TFC:S many of the maps and concepts do come from TFC...Playing dustbowl in TFC with 2 demos who knew how to rotate their pipes/spam and do it all the time was impossible to break through, on top of that you have 2-3 SGs waiting after you get out...while it's a 6 shot gun, usually during a good blue pipe spam rotation as soon as you shoot your 6th pipe, the next guy will start with his, wash, rinse, repeat. It's very effective, and very difficult to handle.

[CaLeB-]

Just my opinion, but I don't like how you guys removed the flags for FF_Cz2. Feels like you've ripped the mood out of it. XD

[Ihmhi]

You're very much entitled to your opinion.

Here's how cz2 plays.

People grab flags, cap points, teleport back. People without a flag are not really a threat, so they just get ignored. It becomes more about capping points and people don't really defend.

Aaand here's how 2.1 plays.

Anyone can cap - multiple times on the same life if they need be. All of a sudden, that Soldier hanging around point 1 is very much a legitimate threat. We've seen one sentry gun hold a point because it had to be held or we'd get an allcap on the opposition. The pressure is greater overall and that makes the game more fun IMO.

Anyone can cap - no running back for flags or anything like that. Defense is not only viable - it's very much necessary.

Let me give you another example. 2.0 cz2: Someone caps a point that you're nearby. You don't have a flag, so you're fucked now. You have to walk to the nearest teleporter, walk back to your base, suicide, etc. In 2.1 cz2, now you can just go to the point and try to recap it.

Capping a point and teleporting out is now a completely reckeless and ineffective strategy. It really helps to have players stick around.

Interestingly enough, in 2.0 and 2.1 cz2 the points further away from your base are worth more, so many playtesters have been very offense-oriented - they try to hold the points further away much more than they try to hold the ones closer to their base to get that slight boost in scoring.

[squeek.]

Another difference: 2.0 cz2 was no fun at all. 2.1 cz2 is mega fun x 10.

[Skanky Butterpuss]

for those of you that arent good with numbers and have a hard time decoding what squeek just said in his mathmagician lingo: new cz2 is much more gooder than old cz2. like, many much more gooder. and funner too.

[chilledsanity]

Rutabeggar: Even if they are perfectly coordinated (which doesn't happen often in pub play and leagues don't seem to play dustbowl anyway) that only works until they have to run back for ammo. Dustbowl is all about attrition. The constant barrage of attackers means when there's a weak point, people will take it. Attackers are going to die and die again getting out the gates, they have to pave the way with bodies.

Yes you have sg's, but if a spy can get past the initial chaos, he can often get behind them, plus there's always soldiers to attack. It's been very rare where I've played where after 5 minutes the attackers still couldn't get out the gates, and even then the skill level was mismatched.


As for CZ2, I never was able to get into it, so I welcome changes on it. I think it could use some spicing up visually however, I always feel like I'm playing in a field of 50 smooth concrete cylinders, which doesn't give me much sense of immersion or position.

[Ihmhi]

Please use the space below to harass redux to make a pinball map. Thank you.

Love,
Ihmhi

[BoltR]

As I tend to play mostly demoman these days i'll comment further on what has been said:

If you have played with me in 2.0, you have heard me bitching about it. The extra pipe time, and the fixed blue pipe hit detection make is so much nicer.

As for the variable pipe timer. It's been talked about and I would say it's a definite possibility for the future (Probably 2.2?). As i've said before, 2.1 was suppose to be a rebalance/fix patch for the issues that have arisen/were never fixed. New features weren't really suppose to be added (but some were of course), and this is one of those things that would delay it even longer.

[Iggy]

Originally Posted by CaLeB-

Just my opinion, but I don't like how you guys removed the flags for FF_Cz2. Feels like you've ripped the mood out of it. XD

Honestly, I thought similar thoughts until I played it. Try it, it is HELLA-FUN now! The pace is faster, MUCH faster. It's something you will need to play to understand. We never change it when this map comes up. It's THAT fun.

[reaper18]

Originally Posted by Q&A

And damn it reaper18, if you don't stop asking such good questions there's not gonna be any left for other people.

<3

[im2cool4uroflolz]

Right, the same amount of failure in this Q&A as in 4. :P

So, um... I don't think when 2.2 rolls out, I'll be able to play.

Can't even run Black & White 2 on this thing, but I should have a new comp by the end of the world when 2.2 outs.

[Sh4x]

Originally Posted by CaLeB-

Just my opinion, but I don't like how you guys removed the flags for FF_Cz2. Feels like you've ripped the mood out of it. XD

Yeah we ripped the bad mood out of it! :P

Seriously, I used to like the way cz2 played for leagues but it never really worked for pubs because after a couple minutes nobody would give a damn about the flags anymore and everyone would just dm.

Imo, the new cz2 improves the gameplay for pubs big time, and league play should be more fun too. It's very exciting to see cap points being capped so fast all over the map...

[Hammock]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

Rutabeggar: Even if they are perfectly coordinated (which doesn't happen often in pub play and leagues don't seem to play dustbowl anyway) that only works until they have to run back for ammo. Dustbowl is all about attrition. The constant barrage of attackers means when there's a weak point, people will take it. Attackers are going to die and die again getting out the gates, they have to pave the way with bodies.

Yes you have sg's, but if a spy can get past the initial chaos, he can often get behind them, plus there's always soldiers to attack. It's been very rare where I've played where after 5 minutes the attackers still couldn't get out the gates, and even then the skill level was mismatched.

No more than 5 minutes? Man what dustbowl servers did you play on. I used to play dustbowl 24/7 all week long back in TFC and my god let me tell you, when you saw a few particular players join red, you wanted to be on their team.

Just 1 of them was incentive to be on red, but 2 of them on red, when you know they're going to be playing demo makes you want to quit if you're stuck on blue.

I've seen 1 demo man single handidly hold rnd2 gate by himself multiple games in a row (to prove it wasn't just luck or the team he had).

I've seen demomen reach 300 kills on rnd2 by the time time runs out.

Just 1 demoman that knew what he was doing was capable of holding rnd2, 2 of them together was godly.

And they could do it multiple games in a row, same 2 guys, could completely hold off the rnds for 15+ minutes.

And you could totally tell it was the demos doing it, because if you did eventually break out, you could cap in 30 seconds sometimes. Which meant it wasn't a strong team holding you back, it was the demo skill.

[chilledsanity]

Are you talking about TFC or FF? I've almost never seen a round stalemated like that for more than 5 minutes out the gate in FF. I think the increased speed and abilities helps there.

[Hammock]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

Are you talking about TFC or FF? I've almost never seen a round stalemated like that for more than 5 minutes out the gate in FF. I think the increased speed and abilities helps there.

I was talking about tfc, thought you were too my bad. Dustbowl isn't played frequently enough in FF for me to really assess it. All I know about FF dustbowl is that unless red is stacked they rarely win.

Every major defensive zone in TFC seems useless in FF. We have an easier time defending back by the nade pack in rnd2 than we do defending the gates.

Rnd3's gates doesn't have the impact like TFC's did either, since you can't build sg's inside the hut and still be effective. Instead we find ourselves defending the side exit and the channel there more. Back in TFC the hut protected the engy from splash damage, but now anything can hit the sg's and engies even a lobbed nade from bottom of the pit.

The sg's seem practically useless at rnd2's cap, never really finding a good spot that's hard to take them down from and locks on the flag carrier fast enough. Even the trick of building them way up on the roof isn't that effective since sollies can rocket jump up over the center fort and lob nades right over.

FF db has never had that same feel like tfc where blue would struggle to break past the known chokepoints. Instead it just feels like red is always on their heels, rarely holding any one position (again the exception is when red is stacked.

[chilledsanity]

No argument from me. It sounds like 2.1 will improve things for red, but it's difficult to say how much. I'm still amazed the 2nd gates have remained bugged as long as they have, I noticed the problem literally the first time I played FF.

One thing I don't like is the splash and knockback can make it problematic if not impossible for an engineer to use his sg as a shield. In TFC an engineer could weather a soldier's attack if he was positioned behind his sg, crouched, and banging away on it. In FF, the rockets will often leak through the sg, shove the engineer back, and by the time he can run back to repair it, it's blown up on him. I'm not talking about shooting the walls behind the engineer or the corners either, I mean direct hits on the sg.

Also any unit can play peekaboo with the sg from around a corner and not get hit if he's good. In TFC, the SG would be ready to kill your ass the 2nd time you tried that, but not in FF since it has to reacquire the target each time.

[Ihmhi]

I'm not 100% sure on this chilled but I'm pretty sure the SG now has that same functionality in 2.1. It locks onto the last acquired target faster than normal, just like TFC.