Hide & Seek ideas

A1win · 12-02-2007, 08:12 PM

Long ago I started scripting a hide & seek mod for HLDM using OZDM teamplay and AMX Mod (a metamod addon). It took lots of time to get it working even at some stage but finally we got it playable. Too bad I can't release the mod because it's so screwed up and requires so many changes to get it working (even installing OZDM on steam is quite a challenge). We've just been playin it on my server with my friends and it's been great fun. I realized the gameplay should be reasonably easy to implement in an FF map...

Anyway, the idea of the mod is that one player is a seeker (a robot in the HLDM version). His weapons are crowbar, 9mm autorifle, shotgun and a few frag grenades (the usual HLDM weapons). The robot gets ammo relatively to the number of hiders. The robot has 100 health and 200 armor. His armor slowly regenerates, making a sound, which tells the hiders that the robot is near (if he's damaged).

The hiders are scientists, who have crowbar, gauss gun with maximum ammo of 5 (which also regenerates about 1 ammo per 5 seconds or so), and tripmines (1 at the start, regenerates 1 per minute and max of 5). Scientists also have a cloak generator which makes them completely invisible when they don't move, but drains about 10 health per second or so, so it's only to be used as an emergency escape solution or something.

The robot's special ability is a "fear generator" that emits some kind of waves or radiation that makes nearby scientists scream. Using the device drains the robot's armor quite fast.

When a scientist dies, he becomes a zombie until the end of the round. They should've been spectators but OZDM didn't support it so we had to be creative... Zombies have high gravity and slow movement speed. Their only attack is "crowbar throw" which does about 10 dmg... They can't even hit with the crowbar. However, they can lead the robot to the scientists or just blow up the tripmines around the map or whatever.

The time limit is 6 minutes, and our games have had about 5 scientists + 1 robot. The map we play is a custom map made by a friend of mine from some old map parts combined together. It has loads of hiding places, but is rather balanced with the timelimit and the number of scientists.

So, how to make all this for FF... I'm not planning on implementing robot vs scientists and all that stuff from the HLDM mod, but the basic idea would be the same.

I was thinking that engineer (without ammo for the shotgun) could be the best class for hiders. The damage from the railgun would be greatly reduced so they couldn't just instagib the seeker with it. Sentry gun and dispenser explosion damage should probably also be reduced. Oh well, let's just make the seeker take 50% damage or so.

I'm not quite sure about the seeker, but a tactical choise would be demoman with increased shotgun damage. It's quite easy to destroy sentry guns as a demoman, and with increased shotgun damage it wouldn't be too easy to run away once he finds you.

One problem is however, that the hiders would respawn after they die. This gameplay is round based afterall. The most obvious solution would be to spawn them behind a locked area outside the map, but that wouldn't be too fun for them...

What I need now is, as the topic says, ideas. Everything is still open and all kinds of (reasonable) suggestions are welcome. I know it would be a lot easier for you to understand how the gameplay goes if you could play the old mod yourselves. But I can tell that the excitement level as a hider is sometimes higher than I've experienced in any other game... but well, that's just me.

Which class would be the best for hiders? Why?
How about the seeker? I know that someone's gonna suggest spy for this, but I think cloaking and disguise would be too imba for this kind of gameplay.
Theme for the first map? If this gets done, I will make the lua and prefabs (if any) available for everyone so we can have more of hide and seek maps, which everyone already loves yay!
Other ideas for the map...
What will happen to the hiders who die until the next round?

פֿяαιп βαмαgεפ · 12-03-2007, 08:45 PM

There were some maps like this on TFC funservers, I've spent serveral hours on them hiding and lol'ing with other mates, sending small music files tough your mic was so much fun, or binding your flaslight to the backspace key and confuse the seeker to hell.

One map I remember was sc4x or sc5x that was THE best, I'd like to see those maps return to the FF community!

Oh and as for classes, the hiders were VIP's (hunted) and the seeker was usually or a medic or sniper, if I recall correctly.

As for dieing, if you died, you returned to the spawn point, who had doors that were timed, in other words, when the map started, the doors for the hiders openend for a few minits, and after that the seeker's door opened. And on one of the maps there was a way to release the hiders again so the seekers would have to search for them troughout the map again.

If anyone out here feels like remaking those maps I'd say GO FOR IT!

A1win · 12-03-2007, 10:39 PM

Ahh yeah of course! Thanks for solving all the problems of the original idea.

Making the hiders able to release the captured hiders will work a lot better for a non round based gameplay. This way we don't even need a time limit, and can just give score to hiders every 10 seconds and score to seeker for every kill. Killing every hider would give lots of score to the seeker, and releasing the hiders would give some extra score to the hiders. Also killing the seeker would reward score and release all the prisoners.

How was the releasing part implemented in those maps you were talking about? I was thinking that there would be a button in front of the door which the hiders could push. When pushed, a timer of 30 seconds or 1 minute or so would start, during which the seeker can push the button again to reset it. This would prevent the seeker from needing to camp the door area too much and would still have time to protect the door. Hiders would have to cooperate by telling eachother when the seeker is furthest away from the door so others can push the button safely.

I still like the idea of hiders being able to do some damage to the seeker. When the seeker dies, the hiders would all be released from the prison, they would get score and the seeker would be trapped in the spawn for 10 seconds or so.

Maybe the engineer idea with SGs and stuff was a bit too much, though, because in a big game there would be 20 engineers each building an SG.

The hiders could be almost any class if we just disabled the most powerful weapons for them by removing all of their ammo for those weapons. But let's see, some classes will be very boring if we disable their main weapons...

Scout: crowbar, shotgun, nailgun, caltrops... disabled cells so can't use radar.
Sniper: BOOM_HEADSHOT... umm no way!

Soldier: too powerful with RPG and too boring without - nope.
Demoman: same as the soldier...
Medic: infection... too annoying for the seeker, nope
HWGuy: as a hider? nooo way.
Pyro: flamethrower (no IC gun nor grens), could be, could be...
Spy: cloak is too imba, nope
Engineer: disabled shotgun and cells, so can only use railgun and wrench.. could be a bit boring

So what do we have for hiders:

Scout without radar, or with very limited ammo for it.
Pyro with crowbar and flamethrower (nothing else).
Engineer with wrench and railgun (nothing else).

Seeker:

Scout: radar could be nice with slowly regenerating ammo and concs would be fun... damage done could be increased and damage taken decreased...
Sniper: too much camping, and hiders don't usually move unless some of them get caught... I'd say no.
Soldier: why not?
Demoman: why not?
Medic: maybe...
HWGuy: too slow and too boring even if the speed could be increased (can it be btw?)
Pyro: could be, unless the hiders are pyros too.
Spy: too easy tbh.
Engineer: Could build SG to protect the door. Sounds good.

And the summary:

Scout with increased damage output and decreased damage input.
Soldier.
Demoman.
Medic.
Pyro (if the hiders aren't pyros).
Engineer.

What do you think? I think the seeker should be able to choose his class at least from 2 different classes. Hiders are weak and nerfed anyway so they better have only one class.

I think I'd go for one of these setups:

Hiders are scouts and seeker can choose from soldier, demoman and medic.
Hiders are scouts and seeker is engineer.
Hiders are engineers (nerfed to hell, see the list above) and seeker can choose from soldier, demoman, medic and pyro.

If the hiders are scouts, the seeker must have a powerful ranged weapon to take them down from distance. Demoman and engineer would have their shotgun damage increased. I don't think seeker should be pyro if the hiders are scouts... it would be just too annoying for the pyro, even if the shotgun damage was inreased... because then he wouldn't do anything with the other weapons.

Resupplying can be made very tactical aswell. Placing the resupply points around the map in open areas will force the hiders to come away from their hiding places every once in a while, especially if they want to use their scout radar often. Maybe there could even be a grenade pack lying around somewhere, but would launch an alarm if the hiders took it, maybe even trapping them inside a cage for 10 seconds or so, giving the seeker some time to get there...

I guess you can see my point now... This kind of gameplay can be a lot more than just normal hide & seek, if the hiders are also given the ability to attack. Of course the seeker will be made more powerful than the hiders as he moves alone. His damage done and taken should be relative to the number of hiders in the enemy team (this can also be done, don't worry).

One last thing... In the HLDM hide and seek, I scripted lots of speach of the HLSP scientists into "chat", "reply" and "taunt" commands. The "chat" command would make them ask a question which can be answered yes or no (believe me, there were lots of those, for example "Do you know who ate all the donuts?", "Are we ever going to make it out of here?", "Shh! Did you hear something", "Do you smell what I smell?"). The "reply" command would answer "Yes", "No", "You know, you repeat yourself sometimes", "Noo...", "Stop asking me that question", "Why are you asking me?" and so on. The "taunt" command just threw out some random sentences such as "Someone has hidden my glasses again..." and "This is madness! I'm getting out of here!". Oh man it was fun to shout those out while hiding alone in some dark place and then hear someone replying to it nearby... sometimes with a shotgun blast, though.

First I thought this can't be implemented to FF mapwise, but then I thought about it again... I can just replace the medic and engy shouts with some HLSP ones (or something better if available) and include them with BSPZip to the map. I could even make it robot vs scientists if someone converted Kleiner and some robot model to FF. BSPZip ftw!

The bad news is that the seeker could then use those, too.

pF · 12-03-2007, 10:45 PM

Any new gameplay ideas are worth a try imo

nodnarb · 12-03-2007, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by פֿяαιп βαмαgεפ

One map I remember was sc4x or sc5x that was THE best, I'd like to see those maps return to the FF community!

sc5x_bonus_beta2 It is a fun map, we run it on our server quite a bit. Last I heard GambiT was making a map.

A1win · 12-03-2007, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by -pF-

Any new gameplay ideas are worth a try imo

Well this isn't a new gameplay idea, and I was gonna try it anyway. I'm just asking for more ideas and opinions about how things should be done.

פֿяαιп βαмαgεפ · 12-04-2007, 02:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nodnarb

sc5x_bonus_beta2 It is a fun map, we run it on our server quite a bit. Last I heard GambiT was making a map.

Yes! That's the one, there was another one too, with the "hidden room" :-p

As for A1win:

There was a button not far from the door that opened it briefley, just enough to let most ppl out, and hiders were NEVER able to kill seekers, that was the fun part, so I'm thinkin' keep the VIP's as hiders and the only suitable seekers are IMO Meds and snipers, that's the reason they were picked in the original(s).

Oh and one more important thing, one of the maps had 1 seeker (more than enough) and the other one has about 2 or 3 (but it was way larger).

*edit* just found the name ofthe other one: stealth_exe_v2 < I liked sc5x better tough

A1win · 12-04-2007, 10:11 AM

I'm not saying killing the seeker should be easy. It just sounds boring if the hiders can't do anything else except hide and run. Rail gun, for example, can also be used for jumping on obstacles, and could be a nice tool for the hiders. If the damage the seeker takes is highly reduced so that the hiders could rarely win even if they all attack at the same time, their main goal would still be hiding. It also adds greatly to the panic factor when you're running away from the seeker trying to shoot him just to make him a little weaker, knowing you'll soon be dead anyway.

I think I'd go for engineers as hiders with only low damage railgun as their weapon, and soldier, demoman, medic and pyro as choises for the seeker. The seeker's speed should probably be increased a bit as a soldier if possible, or hiders' speed slightly decreased.

פֿяαιп βαмαgεפ · 12-04-2007, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A1win

I'm not saying killing the seeker should be easy. It just sounds boring if the hiders can't do anything else except hide and run.

If you say that I suggest you play the original H&S maps!

A1win · 12-05-2007, 06:52 AM

Oh well I guess it can be fun like that, too. If I get a map done, it should be easy to try out different kinds of modes.

So now I need some idea for the map... Any suggestions for the theme?

StatisticZ · 12-05-2007, 01:56 PM

I was playing hide n seek on bounce last night with some others in TFC lol.

A1win · 12-05-2007, 05:40 PM

I started thinking about the two different types of "hide and seek". I don't know if it's called something different in English if the players are able to rescue the captured ones, but in Finnish it's not "hide and seek" (loosely translated). In hide and seek the round ends when everyone is found. I don't think we had any time limits for the seeker when we were playing it as kids, but it would be reasonable so the captured players wouldn't get too bored.

The game is actually very different if the players are able to rescue the prisoners. We played this kind of games as kids, too, it was just called something else... And it usually lead to the seeker just camping near the prisoners so the game sometimes lasted like forever.

Let's say we have a map where the hiders can rescue the prisoners by pushing a button at the prison door. The seeker knows this and will rarely go very far from the prison, unless there's no one in there yet. This will increase the waiting time for the captured prisoner a lot, and make the game boring because both teams are playing defense. In this game mode, the pressure on the seeker comes only from worrying that the prisoners will get released, which forces him to defend instead of seeking.

In another map the players can't release the prisoners, and the game ends after 5 minutes or after all the hiders have been caught. This means the first prisoner will need to wait maximum of 5 minutes in the prison, which can sometimes be less than in the previously discussed game mode. This also means that the seeker doesn't need to camp at the prison door and can, in fact, seek, as he's supposed to. The only pressure put on the seeker comes from catching the hiders within the time limit. I'd say this game mode beats the first one. The idea of hide and seek is that the seeker doesn't know where the hiders are. All "check points" for the hiders, like the prison door, are against this idea.

Now, what will the waiting players do... How would a mini-concmap sound like?

Hiders can be scouts with shotgun and nailgun removed. Also their speed can be slowed down a bit. Caltrops are neat and concs could be fun with a limited supply. I just found out that there is a RemoveWeapon function so there's no need to even force their shotgun and nailgun ammo to zero. I'm not sure yet if I want them to be able to kill the seeker in any way, but that can be tested later.

Seeker can choose from demoman and medic. They're not too slow and they both have nice tools for moving and jumping. Demoman can receive less damage from his own grenades than usually, maybe even zero, so he can use his pipes to move. Demoman isn't so good for cathing the hiders when they run, but you just have to make sure they don't.

Dr.Satan · 12-05-2007, 07:52 PM

I definitely agree that the first idea sounds worse...anything that encourages the seeker to camp is a bad plan IMO.

The second sounds awesome...

Definitely scouts with only c-bars and make the prision like a 4 jump concmap or something with conc's ONLY in that area not in the main map.

Demo would be cool b/c you have to be semi - proficient to still get the beggars as would med, but w/out poison b/c that would kinda be unfair...although med is a bit weak so maybe just demo...

Also I think (if they ever come out with it) there should be a section of the map that if like 3 / 4 hiders work together, they can release quad for a small amount of time...that way the seeker has to try to get enough hiders quckly before they work together and manage to get quad and kill him! It will make the game play a little more balanced and faster b/c the seeker is going to go frantic trying to get the little beggars. Maybe like 4 switches all in different areas of the map that have to be actived together to get it (to discourage the seeker from camping one area)?

A1win · 12-05-2007, 08:27 PM

Those switches would also be "check points" for the hiders, which would encourage the seeker to camp the switches. If there are no check points at all, the seeker simply can't camp one area, because then the hiders wouldn't need to move at all.

If the hiders were able to kill the seeker, that would encourage the hiders to stay in one group and sometimes even just assault the seeker. If the hiders are able to damage the seeker, it has to be very minor damage so that they will need to attack and run back to their hiding places.

I still think concs could be fun for the main map, too. There won't be any resupply bags anywhere, because they also count as check points and the seeker could camp them. The only kind of resupply that would work is a slow regeneration for ammo. In our hide and seek mod we had the hiders getting one trip mine every 1 minute. We could have concs, caltrops and radar ammo (cells) regenerating slowly, too.

Seeker should also have slowly regenerating ammo to discourage spamming pipes and grenades in every hole he can find. Medic is still a good choise for the seeker. If he finds a hider, he's supposed to get them killed, and if he manages to get on melee range to a hider, it's only fair that the use of medkit will eventually kill the hider even if he manages to run away. We were even thinking of making the demoman's crowbar instagib, but then we thought that medic already has this effect so it won't be needed.

Once again, the seeker is supposed to overpower the hiders in combat. If this wasn't true, then the seeker would become the hider. I think the hiders should have their armor greatly reduced and the seeker his damage taken reduced (by lua script) for this to work better. Scouts will proably need to be made slower aswell, so the medic would be preferred over the demoman if you want to pursuit the hiders instead of firing their holes.

פֿяαιп βαмαgεפ · 12-05-2007, 09:26 PM

I'd stick to the original and make the hiders vip's.

As for the map, why not a remake of Sc5x_bonus_beta2?

A1win · 12-05-2007, 09:56 PM

We seem to have a a little different definition for "original" hide and seek map. I've never played hide and seek in any other mod except my own.

Civs don't have concs or caltrops and they would be very bored while waiting in the "prison" for the next round. Radar should also add to the fun factor (with slow cell regeneration so you can't use it all the time). Concs can be used to get away from the seeker or to jump into some hiding places that would otherwise be unaccessible (of course the seeker can still see and shoot to those places from an accessible place). I don't see any reason for removing all tools and weapons from the hiders. Balance can be kept by other means, like reducing seeker damage taken, decreasing hider speed, giving the seeker more ammo etc.

If I'm remaking a map, it will be the hide and seek map we were playing in HLDM. My friend might still have the source for it somewhere. However, I have a nice set of corridors from an unfinished HL2 map I could use as the basic structure for a completely new map.

fishBurger · 12-06-2007, 02:29 AM

I like the idea of civs running from a demo.

He cant take em out from far away, so there is lots and lots of running and chasing and killing and escaping.

Desyphur · 12-06-2007, 05:38 AM

Alright, this is how the Hide and Seek maps went.

Hiders: Civs. No other class. Because having ANY weapon wouldn't make it worth playing, you're supposed to be HIDING, not running out to fight. So you just have an umbrella.

Seeker: Spy, Soldier, Demoman, Sniper, Heavy and Medic i believe it went. Normally only sniper. This character is invincible.

The hiders are released, and have 2 minutes to hide, then the seeker is released, the seeker runs around and trys to find and kill the Civs. Then the civs are sent to a small two rooms, and hang around while reading the chat. It's also a great drunk game, but that's besides the point. It's actually alot of fun for each side.

pF · 12-06-2007, 06:34 AM

How hard is it to find players on an average size map though? Can't imagine it taking all that long.. especially with a sniper rifle to pick them off with..?

GambiT · 12-06-2007, 02:28 PM

i actually started on the bonus_beta map a while back. i had the subway done and ALOT of the "warehouse" part of the map done.

anybody wanna take it over? i'll give it to you.

12-02-2007, 08:12 PM	#1
A1win Nutcracker Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Kuopio, Finland Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Hide & Seek ideas Long ago I started scripting a hide & seek mod for HLDM using OZDM teamplay and AMX Mod (a metamod addon). It took lots of time to get it working even at some stage but finally we got it playable. Too bad I can't release the mod because it's so screwed up and requires so many changes to get it working (even installing OZDM on steam is quite a challenge). We've just been playin it on my server with my friends and it's been great fun. I realized the gameplay should be reasonably easy to implement in an FF map... Anyway, the idea of the mod is that one player is a seeker (a robot in the HLDM version). His weapons are crowbar, 9mm autorifle, shotgun and a few frag grenades (the usual HLDM weapons). The robot gets ammo relatively to the number of hiders. The robot has 100 health and 200 armor. His armor slowly regenerates, making a sound, which tells the hiders that the robot is near (if he's damaged). The hiders are scientists, who have crowbar, gauss gun with maximum ammo of 5 (which also regenerates about 1 ammo per 5 seconds or so), and tripmines (1 at the start, regenerates 1 per minute and max of 5). Scientists also have a cloak generator which makes them completely invisible when they don't move, but drains about 10 health per second or so, so it's only to be used as an emergency escape solution or something. The robot's special ability is a "fear generator" that emits some kind of waves or radiation that makes nearby scientists scream. Using the device drains the robot's armor quite fast. When a scientist dies, he becomes a zombie until the end of the round. They should've been spectators but OZDM didn't support it so we had to be creative... Zombies have high gravity and slow movement speed. Their only attack is "crowbar throw" which does about 10 dmg... They can't even hit with the crowbar. However, they can lead the robot to the scientists or just blow up the tripmines around the map or whatever. The time limit is 6 minutes, and our games have had about 5 scientists + 1 robot. The map we play is a custom map made by a friend of mine from some old map parts combined together. It has loads of hiding places, but is rather balanced with the timelimit and the number of scientists. So, how to make all this for FF... I'm not planning on implementing robot vs scientists and all that stuff from the HLDM mod, but the basic idea would be the same. I was thinking that engineer (without ammo for the shotgun) could be the best class for hiders. The damage from the railgun would be greatly reduced so they couldn't just instagib the seeker with it. Sentry gun and dispenser explosion damage should probably also be reduced. Oh well, let's just make the seeker take 50% damage or so. I'm not quite sure about the seeker, but a tactical choise would be demoman with increased shotgun damage. It's quite easy to destroy sentry guns as a demoman, and with increased shotgun damage it wouldn't be too easy to run away once he finds you. One problem is however, that the hiders would respawn after they die. This gameplay is round based afterall. The most obvious solution would be to spawn them behind a locked area outside the map, but that wouldn't be too fun for them... What I need now is, as the topic says, ideas. Everything is still open and all kinds of (reasonable) suggestions are welcome. I know it would be a lot easier for you to understand how the gameplay goes if you could play the old mod yourselves. But I can tell that the excitement level as a hider is sometimes higher than I've experienced in any other game... but well, that's just me. Which class would be the best for hiders? Why? How about the seeker? I know that someone's gonna suggest spy for this, but I think cloaking and disguise would be too imba for this kind of gameplay. Theme for the first map? If this gets done, I will make the lua and prefabs (if any) available for everyone so we can have more of hide and seek maps, which everyone already loves yay! Other ideas for the map... What will happen to the hiders who die until the next round?

12-03-2007, 08:45 PM	#2
פֿяαιп βαмαgεפ Annoying people since 1986 Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Belgium a.k.a. absurdistan Class/Position: O fatty, pyro - D engy, pyro Gametype: CTF Affiliations: This space for rent. Posts Rated Helpful 1 Times	There were some maps like this on TFC funservers, I've spent serveral hours on them hiding and lol'ing with other mates, sending small music files tough your mic was so much fun, or binding your flaslight to the backspace key and confuse the seeker to hell. One map I remember was sc4x or sc5x that was THE best, I'd like to see those maps return to the FF community! Oh and as for classes, the hiders were VIP's (hunted) and the seeker was usually or a medic or sniper, if I recall correctly. As for dieing, if you died, you returned to the spawn point, who had doors that were timed, in other words, when the map started, the doors for the hiders openend for a few minits, and after that the seeker's door opened. And on one of the maps there was a way to release the hiders again so the seekers would have to search for them troughout the map again. If anyone out here feels like remaking those maps I'd say GO FOR IT! Last edited by פֿяαιп βαмαgεפ; 12-03-2007 at 08:50 PM.

12-03-2007, 10:39 PM	#3
A1win Nutcracker Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Kuopio, Finland Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Ahh yeah of course! Thanks for solving all the problems of the original idea. Making the hiders able to release the captured hiders will work a lot better for a non round based gameplay. This way we don't even need a time limit, and can just give score to hiders every 10 seconds and score to seeker for every kill. Killing every hider would give lots of score to the seeker, and releasing the hiders would give some extra score to the hiders. Also killing the seeker would reward score and release all the prisoners. How was the releasing part implemented in those maps you were talking about? I was thinking that there would be a button in front of the door which the hiders could push. When pushed, a timer of 30 seconds or 1 minute or so would start, during which the seeker can push the button again to reset it. This would prevent the seeker from needing to camp the door area too much and would still have time to protect the door. Hiders would have to cooperate by telling eachother when the seeker is furthest away from the door so others can push the button safely. I still like the idea of hiders being able to do some damage to the seeker. When the seeker dies, the hiders would all be released from the prison, they would get score and the seeker would be trapped in the spawn for 10 seconds or so. Maybe the engineer idea with SGs and stuff was a bit too much, though, because in a big game there would be 20 engineers each building an SG. The hiders could be almost any class if we just disabled the most powerful weapons for them by removing all of their ammo for those weapons. But let's see, some classes will be very boring if we disable their main weapons... Scout: crowbar, shotgun, nailgun, caltrops... disabled cells so can't use radar. Sniper: BOOM_HEADSHOT... umm no way! Soldier: too powerful with RPG and too boring without - nope. Demoman: same as the soldier... Medic: infection... too annoying for the seeker, nope HWGuy: as a hider? nooo way. Pyro: flamethrower (no IC gun nor grens), could be, could be... Spy: cloak is too imba, nope Engineer: disabled shotgun and cells, so can only use railgun and wrench.. could be a bit boring So what do we have for hiders: Scout without radar, or with very limited ammo for it. Pyro with crowbar and flamethrower (nothing else). Engineer with wrench and railgun (nothing else). Seeker: Scout: radar could be nice with slowly regenerating ammo and concs would be fun... damage done could be increased and damage taken decreased... Sniper: too much camping, and hiders don't usually move unless some of them get caught... I'd say no. Soldier: why not? Demoman: why not? Medic: maybe... HWGuy: too slow and too boring even if the speed could be increased (can it be btw?) Pyro: could be, unless the hiders are pyros too. Spy: too easy tbh. Engineer: Could build SG to protect the door. Sounds good. And the summary: Scout with increased damage output and decreased damage input. Soldier. Demoman. Medic. Pyro (if the hiders aren't pyros). Engineer. What do you think? I think the seeker should be able to choose his class at least from 2 different classes. Hiders are weak and nerfed anyway so they better have only one class. I think I'd go for one of these setups: Hiders are scouts and seeker can choose from soldier, demoman and medic. Hiders are scouts and seeker is engineer. Hiders are engineers (nerfed to hell, see the list above) and seeker can choose from soldier, demoman, medic and pyro. If the hiders are scouts, the seeker must have a powerful ranged weapon to take them down from distance. Demoman and engineer would have their shotgun damage increased. I don't think seeker should be pyro if the hiders are scouts... it would be just too annoying for the pyro, even if the shotgun damage was inreased... because then he wouldn't do anything with the other weapons. Resupplying can be made very tactical aswell. Placing the resupply points around the map in open areas will force the hiders to come away from their hiding places every once in a while, especially if they want to use their scout radar often. Maybe there could even be a grenade pack lying around somewhere, but would launch an alarm if the hiders took it, maybe even trapping them inside a cage for 10 seconds or so, giving the seeker some time to get there... I guess you can see my point now... This kind of gameplay can be a lot more than just normal hide & seek, if the hiders are also given the ability to attack. Of course the seeker will be made more powerful than the hiders as he moves alone. His damage done and taken should be relative to the number of hiders in the enemy team (this can also be done, don't worry). One last thing... In the HLDM hide and seek, I scripted lots of speach of the HLSP scientists into "chat", "reply" and "taunt" commands. The "chat" command would make them ask a question which can be answered yes or no (believe me, there were lots of those, for example "Do you know who ate all the donuts?", "Are we ever going to make it out of here?", "Shh! Did you hear something", "Do you smell what I smell?"). The "reply" command would answer "Yes", "No", "You know, you repeat yourself sometimes", "Noo...", "Stop asking me that question", "Why are you asking me?" and so on. The "taunt" command just threw out some random sentences such as "Someone has hidden my glasses again..." and "This is madness! I'm getting out of here!". Oh man it was fun to shout those out while hiding alone in some dark place and then hear someone replying to it nearby... sometimes with a shotgun blast, though. First I thought this can't be implemented to FF mapwise, but then I thought about it again... I can just replace the medic and engy shouts with some HLSP ones (or something better if available) and include them with BSPZip to the map. I could even make it robot vs scientists if someone converted Kleiner and some robot model to FF. BSPZip ftw! The bad news is that the seeker could then use those, too. Last edited by A1win; 12-03-2007 at 10:51 PM.

12-04-2007, 10:11 AM	#8
A1win Nutcracker Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Kuopio, Finland Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	I'm not saying killing the seeker should be easy. It just sounds boring if the hiders can't do anything else except hide and run. Rail gun, for example, can also be used for jumping on obstacles, and could be a nice tool for the hiders. If the damage the seeker takes is highly reduced so that the hiders could rarely win even if they all attack at the same time, their main goal would still be hiding. It also adds greatly to the panic factor when you're running away from the seeker trying to shoot him just to make him a little weaker, knowing you'll soon be dead anyway. I think I'd go for engineers as hiders with only low damage railgun as their weapon, and soldier, demoman, medic and pyro as choises for the seeker. The seeker's speed should probably be increased a bit as a soldier if possible, or hiders' speed slightly decreased. Last edited by A1win; 12-04-2007 at 10:17 AM.

12-05-2007, 05:40 PM	#12
A1win Nutcracker Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Kuopio, Finland Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	I started thinking about the two different types of "hide and seek". I don't know if it's called something different in English if the players are able to rescue the captured ones, but in Finnish it's not "hide and seek" (loosely translated). In hide and seek the round ends when everyone is found. I don't think we had any time limits for the seeker when we were playing it as kids, but it would be reasonable so the captured players wouldn't get too bored. The game is actually very different if the players are able to rescue the prisoners. We played this kind of games as kids, too, it was just called something else... And it usually lead to the seeker just camping near the prisoners so the game sometimes lasted like forever. Let's say we have a map where the hiders can rescue the prisoners by pushing a button at the prison door. The seeker knows this and will rarely go very far from the prison, unless there's no one in there yet. This will increase the waiting time for the captured prisoner a lot, and make the game boring because both teams are playing defense. In this game mode, the pressure on the seeker comes only from worrying that the prisoners will get released, which forces him to defend instead of seeking. In another map the players can't release the prisoners, and the game ends after 5 minutes or after all the hiders have been caught. This means the first prisoner will need to wait maximum of 5 minutes in the prison, which can sometimes be less than in the previously discussed game mode. This also means that the seeker doesn't need to camp at the prison door and can, in fact, seek, as he's supposed to. The only pressure put on the seeker comes from catching the hiders within the time limit. I'd say this game mode beats the first one. The idea of hide and seek is that the seeker doesn't know where the hiders are. All "check points" for the hiders, like the prison door, are against this idea. Now, what will the waiting players do... How would a mini-concmap sound like? Hiders can be scouts with shotgun and nailgun removed. Also their speed can be slowed down a bit. Caltrops are neat and concs could be fun with a limited supply. I just found out that there is a RemoveWeapon function so there's no need to even force their shotgun and nailgun ammo to zero. I'm not sure yet if I want them to be able to kill the seeker in any way, but that can be tested later. Seeker can choose from demoman and medic. They're not too slow and they both have nice tools for moving and jumping. Demoman can receive less damage from his own grenades than usually, maybe even zero, so he can use his pipes to move. Demoman isn't so good for cathing the hiders when they run, but you just have to make sure they don't. Last edited by A1win; 12-05-2007 at 05:47 PM.

12-03-2007, 10:45 PM	#4
pF no war but class war Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: big bad berlin Class/Position: Soldier / Scout Gametype: ctf Affiliations: [w~k!] Posts Rated Helpful 3 Times	Any new gameplay ideas are worth a try imo

12-05-2007, 06:52 AM	#10
A1win Nutcracker Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Kuopio, Finland Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Oh well I guess it can be fun like that, too. If I get a map done, it should be easy to try out different kinds of modes. So now I need some idea for the map... Any suggestions for the theme?

12-05-2007, 01:56 PM	#11
StatisticZ My title is... Custom. Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tri-State Area Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	I was playing hide n seek on bounce last night with some others in TFC lol.

12-05-2007, 07:52 PM	#13
Dr.Satan Wiki Team Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Greeley, CO Class/Position: Med / Solly Gametype: PAYLOAD Affiliations: DET- Posts Rated Helpful 19 Times	I definitely agree that the first idea sounds worse...anything that encourages the seeker to camp is a bad plan IMO. The second sounds awesome... Definitely scouts with only c-bars and make the prision like a 4 jump concmap or something with conc's ONLY in that area not in the main map. Demo would be cool b/c you have to be semi - proficient to still get the beggars as would med, but w/out poison b/c that would kinda be unfair...although med is a bit weak so maybe just demo... Also I think (if they ever come out with it) there should be a section of the map that if like 3 / 4 hiders work together, they can release quad for a small amount of time...that way the seeker has to try to get enough hiders quckly before they work together and manage to get quad and kill him! It will make the game play a little more balanced and faster b/c the seeker is going to go frantic trying to get the little beggars. Maybe like 4 switches all in different areas of the map that have to be actived together to get it (to discourage the seeker from camping one area)? __________________ FF Community Map Pack(s): 1 / 2 (Released) conc_school \| hellion_classic \| ksour_PAYLOAD \| mulch_faf (Beta) alchimy_b1 (Lua) base_payload_2015 (Models) props_trainyard Support FF:

12-05-2007, 08:27 PM	#14
A1win Nutcracker Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Kuopio, Finland Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Those switches would also be "check points" for the hiders, which would encourage the seeker to camp the switches. If there are no check points at all, the seeker simply can't camp one area, because then the hiders wouldn't need to move at all. If the hiders were able to kill the seeker, that would encourage the hiders to stay in one group and sometimes even just assault the seeker. If the hiders are able to damage the seeker, it has to be very minor damage so that they will need to attack and run back to their hiding places. I still think concs could be fun for the main map, too. There won't be any resupply bags anywhere, because they also count as check points and the seeker could camp them. The only kind of resupply that would work is a slow regeneration for ammo. In our hide and seek mod we had the hiders getting one trip mine every 1 minute. We could have concs, caltrops and radar ammo (cells) regenerating slowly, too. Seeker should also have slowly regenerating ammo to discourage spamming pipes and grenades in every hole he can find. Medic is still a good choise for the seeker. If he finds a hider, he's supposed to get them killed, and if he manages to get on melee range to a hider, it's only fair that the use of medkit will eventually kill the hider even if he manages to run away. We were even thinking of making the demoman's crowbar instagib, but then we thought that medic already has this effect so it won't be needed. Once again, the seeker is supposed to overpower the hiders in combat. If this wasn't true, then the seeker would become the hider. I think the hiders should have their armor greatly reduced and the seeker his damage taken reduced (by lua script) for this to work better. Scouts will proably need to be made slower aswell, so the medic would be preferred over the demoman if you want to pursuit the hiders instead of firing their holes.

12-05-2007, 09:26 PM	#15
פֿяαιп βαмαgεפ Annoying people since 1986 Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Belgium a.k.a. absurdistan Class/Position: O fatty, pyro - D engy, pyro Gametype: CTF Affiliations: This space for rent. Posts Rated Helpful 1 Times	I'd stick to the original and make the hiders vip's. As for the map, why not a remake of Sc5x_bonus_beta2?

12-05-2007, 09:56 PM	#16
A1win Nutcracker Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Kuopio, Finland Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	We seem to have a a little different definition for "original" hide and seek map. I've never played hide and seek in any other mod except my own. Civs don't have concs or caltrops and they would be very bored while waiting in the "prison" for the next round. Radar should also add to the fun factor (with slow cell regeneration so you can't use it all the time). Concs can be used to get away from the seeker or to jump into some hiding places that would otherwise be unaccessible (of course the seeker can still see and shoot to those places from an accessible place). I don't see any reason for removing all tools and weapons from the hiders. Balance can be kept by other means, like reducing seeker damage taken, decreasing hider speed, giving the seeker more ammo etc. If I'm remaking a map, it will be the hide and seek map we were playing in HLDM. My friend might still have the source for it somewhere. However, I have a nice set of corridors from an unfinished HL2 map I could use as the basic structure for a completely new map.

12-06-2007, 02:29 AM	#17
fishBurger get off my lawn Join Date: Mar 2007 Class/Position: O scout / demo Gametype: killing Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	I like the idea of civs running from a demo. He cant take em out from far away, so there is lots and lots of running and chasing and killing and escaping. __________________ That means that either you are an American, or you are NOT an American. There is no hyphenated exception. -Iggy

12-06-2007, 05:38 AM	#18
Desyphur OHH! OHHH NOOO! Wiki Team Beta Tester Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Alright, this is how the Hide and Seek maps went. Hiders: Civs. No other class. Because having ANY weapon wouldn't make it worth playing, you're supposed to be HIDING, not running out to fight. So you just have an umbrella. Seeker: Spy, Soldier, Demoman, Sniper, Heavy and Medic i believe it went. Normally only sniper. This character is invincible. The hiders are released, and have 2 minutes to hide, then the seeker is released, the seeker runs around and trys to find and kill the Civs. Then the civs are sent to a small two rooms, and hang around while reading the chat. It's also a great drunk game, but that's besides the point. It's actually alot of fun for each side. __________________ What was left of my sanity implored me not to enter...but that voice was just a whisper now.

12-06-2007, 06:34 AM	#19
pF no war but class war Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: big bad berlin Class/Position: Soldier / Scout Gametype: ctf Affiliations: [w~k!] Posts Rated Helpful 3 Times	How hard is it to find players on an average size map though? Can't imagine it taking all that long.. especially with a sniper rifle to pick them off with..?

12-06-2007, 02:28 PM	#20
GambiT Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Baton Rouge Class/Position: Spy Affiliations: -=DoM=- Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	i actually started on the bonus_beta map a while back. i had the subway done and ALOT of the "warehouse" part of the map done. anybody wanna take it over? i'll give it to you. __________________ -------------------------------FF_Rock2(WIP)------------------------------ ---------------------------FF_RedGiant(Released)------------------------- --------------------------FF_Fragzone_G(Released)------------------------ --------------------------FF_Civibash_G(Released)------------------------ -------------------FF_Conc_G1(WIP)-------------------- -------------------FF_Hollow_G(WIP)---------------------

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