Remaking Ravelin (That Broken Map Everybody Hates): What To Change?

StoneFrog · 04-22-2009, 03:56 PM

Hi, everybody.

I really don't post here much and I only play FF occasionally. I was a diehard TFCer and I still am. I am content with how Valve approached TF2, and I enjoy playing it, but it's certainly not for me. It's fun, but in a "different" way. When I play Fortress Forever, it's like playing TFC all over again - it all just "clicks".

I figured I'd make a FF map for kicks. I have 2 years of Hammer experience (despite woefully never getting anything past alpha/beta stages) and am fairly good with entity work and detailing. As I'm not particularly in tune with FF yet, I figured I'd start small by porting over a TFC map - just to get the feel of how the new Lua Scripting works and the graphical style.

I'm thinking of remaking "Ravelin" for FF. Now, Ravelin seems frowned on for various reasons. I wouldn't know why as I haven't played it much (no doubt since it's never played) - but the complaints seem to range from the map being too open to it being too easy to conc through the entire enemy's base in a heartbeat.

Do you think this map can be salvaged and reworked to provide a fun experience? What do you think were the map's major flaws and what should be improved? Any advice for an aspiring new FF mapper?

Thanks.

KubeDawg · 04-22-2009, 05:04 PM

I believe it is already being remade, but you'll have to ask around to find out for sure. Mushy might be the best person to ask about this map.

If you have any other maps you're interested in making, try giving a list of them that you'd like, and maybe see what's the most popular choice.

StoneFrog · 04-22-2009, 05:23 PM

Thanks. I'll look around. I have another question, while I'm at it:

What exactly are the rules set for usage of FF's existing textures? I heard their creators generally do not want them redistributed for others' maps, and I have to use HL2/custom textures? Are those resource packs I see on the forum free-use textures or redistributions/variants of the ones that are included in FF?

**Crazycarl** · 04-22-2009, 05:48 PM

If you are making a FF map, you can use whatever textures you want and you don't have to redistribute; our players already have them. If you want to edit a texture from FF, We'd be ok with that. If you want to redistribute FF textures for use in another game, please get permission first.

**squeek.** · 04-22-2009, 06:10 PM

Green Mushy has made a map that we're testing in the beta that is loosely bassed on the geometry of Ravelin, but it's not a remake by any stretch. If you think you can turn Ravelin into a playable map, go for it.

And, as Carl said, all the FF textures are there for your unrestricted use. Don't know where you got the idea that they weren't.

StoneFrog · 04-22-2009, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by squeek.

Green Mushy has made a map that we're testing in the beta that is loosely bassed on the geometry of Ravelin, but it's not a remake by any stretch. If you think you can turn Ravelin into a playable map, go for it.

I don't know. I don't remember Ravelin's geometry very well, and even running through the map in TFC, it's kind of hard to memorize the base. Ideally I'd like to retain as much of the original map as possible, but it seems like lots of these pointless hallways and stuff could be molded down into full rooms. It depends. I have no intention of naming it ff_ravelin either as that may generate bad publicity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by squeek.

And, as Carl said, all the FF textures are there for your unrestricted use. Don't know where you got the idea that they weren't.

Posts of people saying things like "what textures are you guys using until they release the FF ones?" and "you'll have to stick with HL2 textures in the meantime".

**squeek.** · 04-22-2009, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StoneFrog

Posts of people saying things like "what textures are you guys using until they release the FF ones?" and "you'll have to stick with HL2 textures in the meantime".

Those posts were probably pre-release (before September 2007), when no one but the devs/betas had access to the FF textures. Now, everyone has access to them.

StoneFrog · 04-22-2009, 10:17 PM

Alright, great! Once again, though, if any of you remember any particular flaws with the original ravelin, please post them here. Right now I'm picking up on the lengthy narrow tunnels that link the bases to "no man's land", but I don't really know.

I think the neutral territory between the bases has to be removed entirely or redone. At least make the bases within sniping distance or create some outpost or something in the neutral area as a first line of defense.

SmellyCat · 04-24-2009, 01:41 AM

Only thing I can actually remember about Ravelin is the pointlessly long mid map area and then the hilariously crowded interior of the base.

I guess those are its main faults really...

The EiE · 06-02-2009, 08:54 PM

Ravelin is a good looking map but its has a too long mid area, the inside of the base is a mess and its hard to find were you're going and when you follow the signs you get somewhere but not were you're supposed to go...
atleast thats what i though when i first played it

Marxist · 06-08-2009, 11:34 PM

Quote:

If you have any other maps you're interested in making, try giving a list of them that you'd like, and maybe see what's the most popular choice

Best advice I've seen on this thread, if you're wanting to port a tfc map, ask around and see what people would like to see ported. Doesn't make much sense imo to port over a map that barely anyone in tfc liked, and will most likely receive the same reception in FF. Ravelin was just an awkward map to play pretty much all the way around, I don't see it being a good caididate for a port. But then again, you're making the map, so who cares what the rest of us think

Most of the ported TFC maps we have currently in FF have been received well and get a good amount of play time.

**Ricey** · 06-08-2009, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marxist

Best advice I've seen on this thread, if you're wanting to port a tfc map, ask around and see what people would like to see ported. Doesn't make much sense imo to port over a map that barely anyone in tfc liked, and will most likely receive the same reception in FF. Ravelin was just an awkward map to play pretty much all the way around, I don't see it being a good caididate for a port. But then again, you're making the map, so who cares what the rest of us think

Most of the ported TFC maps we have currently in FF have been received well and get a good amount of play time.

There is a whole list of TFC map people want.

http://forums.fortress-forever.com/s...ead.php?t=8895

fishBurger · 06-09-2009, 05:12 AM

Right, and for his first FF map nobody's going to be pissed because he massacred ravelin.
Go buddy go, I'd like to see how it plays.

04-22-2009, 03:56 PM	#1
StoneFrog Born to Frag. Join Date: Feb 2009 Class/Position: Demoman Gametype: Capture the Flag Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Remaking Ravelin (That Broken Map Everybody Hates): What To Change? Hi, everybody. I really don't post here much and I only play FF occasionally. I was a diehard TFCer and I still am. I am content with how Valve approached TF2, and I enjoy playing it, but it's certainly not for me. It's fun, but in a "different" way. When I play Fortress Forever, it's like playing TFC all over again - it all just "clicks". I figured I'd make a FF map for kicks. I have 2 years of Hammer experience (despite woefully never getting anything past alpha/beta stages) and am fairly good with entity work and detailing. As I'm not particularly in tune with FF yet, I figured I'd start small by porting over a TFC map - just to get the feel of how the new Lua Scripting works and the graphical style. I'm thinking of remaking "Ravelin" for FF. Now, Ravelin seems frowned on for various reasons. I wouldn't know why as I haven't played it much (no doubt since it's never played) - but the complaints seem to range from the map being too open to it being too easy to conc through the entire enemy's base in a heartbeat. Do you think this map can be salvaged and reworked to provide a fun experience? What do you think were the map's major flaws and what should be improved? Any advice for an aspiring new FF mapper? Thanks.

04-22-2009, 05:04 PM	#2
KubeDawg Nade Whore Server Owner Beta Tester Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Oklahoma Class/Position: Scout/Soldier Gametype: CTF/TDM Affiliations: blunt. Moto Posts Rated Helpful 128 Times	I believe it is already being remade, but you'll have to ask around to find out for sure. Mushy might be the best person to ask about this map. If you have any other maps you're interested in making, try giving a list of them that you'd like, and maybe see what's the most popular choice. __________________ Moto's Funhouse \| Dallas, TX - 74.91.114.247:27015 ff_plunder - Complete

04-22-2009, 05:48 PM	#4
Crazycarl D&A Member Wiki Team Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 31 Times	If you are making a FF map, you can use whatever textures you want and you don't have to redistribute; our players already have them. If you want to edit a texture from FF, We'd be ok with that. If you want to redistribute FF textures for use in another game, please get permission first. __________________ Support FF:

04-22-2009, 06:10 PM	#5
squeek. Stuff Do-er Lua Team Wiki Team Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Northern California Class/Position: Rallygun Shooter Gametype: Conc tag (you just wait) Affiliations: Mustache Brigade Posts Rated Helpful 352 Times	Green Mushy has made a map that we're testing in the beta that is loosely bassed on the geometry of Ravelin, but it's not a remake by any stretch. If you think you can turn Ravelin into a playable map, go for it. And, as Carl said, all the FF textures are there for your unrestricted use. Don't know where you got the idea that they weren't. __________________ #FF.Pickup ¤ Fortress-Forever pickups My Non-official Maps Released FF_DM_Squeek - FF_2Mesa3_Classic - FF_Siege_Classic Beta FF_Myth - FF_Redlight_Greenlight Sick of the people on the internet, always moanin'. They just moan. - Karl Pilkington

06-09-2009, 05:12 AM	#13
fishBurger get off my lawn Join Date: Mar 2007 Class/Position: O scout / demo Gametype: killing Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Right, and for his first FF map nobody's going to be pissed because he massacred ravelin. Go buddy go, I'd like to see how it plays. __________________ That means that either you are an American, or you are NOT an American. There is no hyphenated exception. -Iggy

04-22-2009, 05:23 PM	#3
StoneFrog Born to Frag. Join Date: Feb 2009 Class/Position: Demoman Gametype: Capture the Flag Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Thanks. I'll look around. I have another question, while I'm at it: What exactly are the rules set for usage of FF's existing textures? I heard their creators generally do not want them redistributed for others' maps, and I have to use HL2/custom textures? Are those resource packs I see on the forum free-use textures or redistributions/variants of the ones that are included in FF?

04-22-2009, 10:17 PM	#8
StoneFrog Born to Frag. Join Date: Feb 2009 Class/Position: Demoman Gametype: Capture the Flag Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Alright, great! Once again, though, if any of you remember any particular flaws with the original ravelin, please post them here. Right now I'm picking up on the lengthy narrow tunnels that link the bases to "no man's land", but I don't really know. I think the neutral territory between the bases has to be removed entirely or redone. At least make the bases within sniping distance or create some outpost or something in the neutral area as a first line of defense.

04-24-2009, 01:41 AM	#9
SmellyCat Darknight Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: England Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Only thing I can actually remember about Ravelin is the pointlessly long mid map area and then the hilariously crowded interior of the base. I guess those are its main faults really...

06-02-2009, 08:54 PM	#10
The EiE Join Date: May 2009 Gametype: Capture the Flag Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Ravelin is a good looking map but its has a too long mid area, the inside of the base is a mess and its hard to find were you're going and when you follow the signs you get somewhere but not were you're supposed to go... atleast thats what i though when i first played it

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