Want to improve a distinction between Scout and Medic?

[Eon Seig]

I always saw the Medic's movement ability as a tool for support, not just a flag running ability. It lets Medics get to the injured faster.

I am not interested in taking away the Medic's movement ability, or taking away his concs, or gimping his combat power. I also don't want you to interpret my argument as me wanting medics to latch on to people like their personal concubines. The conc (and the Medic's movement ability) is a method by which Medics should be dashing to the rescue of team mates. I don't want Medic combos like in TF2, where the Heavy and a Medic partner up to basically act like a moving fortress. I just want Medics to actually have something that makes them think "I could just conc to the flag and maybe dodge that sentry, but what if I waited for a second and healed this Soldier that's trying to keep up with me?"

Basically, I would appreciate Medics more if they would actually think about healing their team mates as a valid stretegy for a successful offense. They don't have to latch on to me like a damn parasite or stop going for the flag.

As another note, I am comfortable with the Scout as he is. I wouldn't mind seeing how caltrops work out, but otherwise the Scout is good in his current role. I don't think the Scout needs to be turned into a full-on combat class. Then we really are turning this into TF2. Lord, I HATE Scouts in TF2.

[Jimyd]

Originally Posted by squeek.

So, then how would movement fit in that gameplay? How would a conc grenade work if you had to (or if it was better to) group up with a medic to mount a successful attack?

The radical suggestion then would be for the Scout to only have Conc Grenades. Force the Scout to build a Jumppad for his fellow Medics and other Offensive classes.

Medic instead gets a Heal Grenade, Spherical Bubble that lasts for a short time(5/10 seconds).

That combined with all my suggestions above (besides the adrenaline one), could be a big change to make the Medic a more of a support class. Would still have some DMing ability, and if things get too hot to handle, push the enemy back with the Super-Nailgun.

Yup.

*NOTE*

Yes this means Scouts would either have to help their Offensive team by building an Offensive Jumppad, or force to wait for the rest of the Offense to BHOP their way into the enemy base.

So 2 Scouts if you want a Jumppad for the Defense. Heck maybe even a Defensive Scout(assuming he gets the Double-Shotgun like I have suggested).

And yes I know most of you are gonna go O_O, but that is what PLAYTESTING is for. Try all the ideas combined and then all of them seperated out in their individual parts.

=)

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by Eon Seig

I just want Medics to actually have something that makes them think "I could just conc to the flag and maybe dodge that sentry, but what if I waited for a second and healed this Soldier that's trying to keep up with me?"

They have that choice currently, do they not?

[Jimyd]

And as I have pointed out with my Theory Crafting post, as I will refer to it, Medics can basically still do everything for themselves equally well/good.
(Not much learned from TFC and other TF games I see? <3)

It is the "Soldier" class on Offense. You really do not need a Scout(yes it makes it easier, but 4 Medics can just destroy a Defense if done right). This is something you can't do with Scouts, which all they are good for in regards to the actual class itself... is touching the Flag so it doesn't return.

I rather have 4 Medics who know how to heal, than 3 Medics 1 Scout or 2 Med. 1 Scout, than any other dual class Offensive setup. Unless of course the map is Flagrun, then its skyhigh to victory with Scout swarms all up in the air.

[Eon Seig]

But it's a choice that they are not making. Healing people with melee is clumsy when you and your heal target are both on the move. Melee buffing also requires the Medic to stop for an extended period of time to help the slower team mate. This is off-putting for medics in general because they are supposed to be moving fast all the time. Dropped heal packs are more useful on the move, but they don't heal very much. Now, I don't think dropped packs should go back to full heals like they used to, but 15 HP is pretty wimpy, especially if there's multiple team mates who want those packs.

But now I think I am partially derailing this thread. No, I do not agree with taking away the Medic's Super Shotgun, nor do I like the idea of giving the Scout a Super Shotgun. The Scout is too damn flimsy to even make use of it anyway.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by Jimyd

And as I have pointed out with my Theory Crafting post, as I will refer to it, Medics can basically still do everything for themselves equally well/good.
(Not much learned from TFC and other TF games I see? <3)

It is the "Soldier" class on Offense. You really do not need a Scout(yes it makes it easier, but 4 Medics can just destroy a Defense if done right). This is something you can't do with Scouts, which all they are good for in regards to the actual class itself... is touching the Flag so it doesn't return.

I rather have 4 Medics who know how to heal, than 3 Medics 1 Scout or 2 Med. 1 Scout, than any other dual class Offensive setup. Unless of course the map is Flagrun, then its skyhigh to victory with Scout swarms all up in the air.

So then does the soldier needs to be put into a more supportive role too? If not, why can't there be a "soldier" of offense if the "soldier" of defense isn't a problem? Maybe it's that the soldier of defense has legitimate alternatives. A 4 soldier defense can work, but so can a mixture of other classes.

So, why make the medic a weaker (or more supportive) offensive class instead of making classes like the spy or pyro more legitimate choices/alternatives?

[Jimyd]

Originally Posted by Eon Seig

But it's a choice that they are not making. Healing people with melee is clumsy when you and your heal target are both on the move. Melee buffing also requires the Medic to stop for an extended period of time to help the slower team mate. This is off-putting for medics in general because they are supposed to be moving fast all the time. Dropped heal packs are more useful on the move, but they don't heal very much. Now, I don't think dropped packs should go back to full heals like they used to, but 15 HP is pretty wimpy, especially if there's multiple team mates who want those packs.

Only 15 HP, wow what fail. They should do 20/25 HP. That would make it worthwhile.

Also does the Medic still buff to 150%, or was that nerfed too?

Now I see why people are opposed to removing some of the Medic's DMing ability, because he has no good healing ability right now.

Fix that, and then the suggestions in this thread are good direction to explore thoroughly.

[squeek.]

He's talking about the packs that the medic can throw at people using +attack2. He can throw ~5, he regens them over time, and they heal for 15 hp each. It's a legitimate way to heal others.

The melee medkit still is just as poweful (healing-wise) as it was in TFC.

[Eon Seig]

Originally Posted by squeek.

So, why make the medic a weaker (or more supportive) offensive class instead of making classes like the spy or pyro more legitimate choices/alternatives?

Not instead, but in addition to, I would say. A single bandage does not a recovery make. Other classes do need to be equally good alternatives. Making the Medic weaker is not a good solution, nor is increasing his support ability the only solution.

Originally Posted by Jimyd

Only 15 HP, wow what fail. They should do 20/25 HP. That would make it worthwhile.

Also does the Medic still buff to 150%, or was that nerfed too?

Now I see why people are opposed to removing some of the Medic's DMing ability, because he has no good healing ability right now.

Fix that, and then the suggestions in this thread are good direction to explore thoroughly.

Keep in mind that the Medic can drop 5 packs at once, so he can really heal 75 HP. But that's only on one person, and really, 75 HP and low armor lasts about as long as a piece of cotton held up to a blowtorch. Instead of buffing how much is healed by one pack, maybe improving the kit regeneration rate would be a better idea.

The buff still goes to 150%.

And no, I am not arguing that the melee medkit is weaker, but that it is more difficult to use. It simply takes a great deal of time since it is very easy to miss the person you are buffing, especially if you are both moving. That's really more of an issue with melee hit detection in general, but it is just a lot more obvious for medics.

[Jimyd]

Originally Posted by squeek.

So then does the soldier needs to be put into a more supportive role too? If not, why can't there be a "soldier" of offense if the "soldier" of defense isn't a problem? Maybe it's that the soldier of defense has legitimate alternatives. A 4 soldier defense can work, but so can a mixture of other classes.

So, why make the medic a weaker (or more supportive) offensive class instead of making classes like the spy or pyro more legitimate choices/alternatives?

Because people will cry troll if those classes were to get any decent(powerful/useful) suggestions.

Look at the TF2 forums, the Pyro is the most hated class even though he still is pretty useless, but still an upgrade from any Pyro iterations of past TF games. Airblasting is pretty damn useful if done right, but the class is still pretty weak when compared to the Soldier/Demo/Everything.

Spy has always been a niche class, and at least he has invisibilty in place of Feign Death. It was never good to run strictly a Spy for a whole match, because then the enemy team is always looking for one. Unless of course their strategy is to use 2-4 Engineers, then it works out okay.

Also Spies need their Hallunication Grenades(I heard the got removed, fail again BTW if its true).

Pyro needs to be balanced in regards to the Soldier, they should be interchangeable. Spy like I said is its own theme; it is like the Engineer... balanced upon itself.

*EDIT*

I say 20 HP per a pack, and an increase of recovery. This allows 1 Medic to fully heal his teammate if he haves to, but at a cost. The consequence of not being able to spot heal anyone else in the Offensive team if they take damage real quickly.

And like Eon Seig said, 75 HP and no/few AP still means guaranteed death. At least at 100 you can be grazed by a Shotgun/Grenade and still manage to live; or take some severe fall damage on those vertical maps.

[SSCUJO]

what if you only change the melee medkit so that one hit with it increases health to 150% no matter what the hp. the hit detection is crap so it won't be overused in battle, but im sure a medic will stop in a pickup if he's next to his team mate when they land the first conc after the yard. and thats all you really need, a reason to heal. although it would most likely break as many things as it fixes.

[[AE] 82694]

Originally Posted by Jimyd

Because people will cry troll if those classes were to get any decent(powerful/useful) suggestions.

Look at the TF2 forums, the Pyro is the most hated class even though he still is pretty useless, but still an upgrade from any Pyro iterations of past TF games. Airblasting is pretty damn useful if done right, but the class is still pretty weak when compared to the Soldier/Demo/Everything.

Spy has always been a niche class, and at least he has invisibilty in place of Feign Death. It was never good to run strictly a Spy for a whole match, because then the enemy team is always looking for one. Unless of course their strategy is to use 2-4 Engineers, then it works out okay.

Also Spies need their Hallunication Grenades(I heard the got removed, fail again BTW if its true).

Pyro needs to be balanced in regards to the Soldier, they should be interchangeable. Spy like I said is its own theme; it is like the Engineer... balanced upon itself.

*EDIT*

I say 20 HP per a pack, and an increase of recovery. This allows 1 Medic to fully heal his teammate if he haves to, but at a cost. The consequence of not being able to spot heal anyone else in the Offensive team if they take damage real quickly.

And like Eon Seig said, 75 HP and no/few AP still means guaranteed death. At least at 100 you can be grazed by a Shotgun/Grenade and still manage to live; or take some severe fall damage on those vertical maps.

Originally Posted by Jimyd

K I'm done editing, I await your viewpoints on this. Poll is there as well.

Try not to turn this into a game war(FFvsTFCvsTF2) discussion.

[Jimyd]

Originally Posted by [AE] 82694

Silly, that was in reference to that post.

Exploiting loopholes in technicality. =)
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_lm2JI7sGwY...e+loophole.png

[Raynian]

Heavier classes rely on armor more than HP, so even if they're 150/0, they're gonna die quick.

This is okay.

Not that medics are useless for helping tougher classes. D meds can really help out in a pub!

And scouts are fine, if not slightly overpowered with their pads.

[Jimyd]

http://forums.fortress-forever.com/s...d=1#post468737

Another suggestion for the Medic.

Suprised this hasn't been discussed to death... guess the playerbase is really that small?

[Raynian]

Or there's another reason, one just as true.

Nobody cares.

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by Jimyd

http://forums.fortress-forever.com/s...d=1#post468737

Another suggestion for the Medic.

Suprised this hasn't been discussed to death... guess the playerbase is really that small?

It has, but it's years old. This kind of thread went on for pages and pages around the time it was removed from the game. It's since cropped up periodically every 6 months or so and the exact same points are made. Absolutely nothing has been changed since then, but it's not due to lack of discussion or people caring about it. The same can be said for many aspects of FF gameplay.

Then again, the playerbase could factor in, a lot of the people who didn't like the change may have left by now.

[mervaka]

you seriously want infection spreading back?

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by mervaka

you seriously want infection spreading back?

See, I think this question is at the core of what's wrong with FF development. It suggests that you can't even understand an alternative viewpoint on an issue. Not that you don't agree with it, there's nothing wrong with that, but that question implies you can't even fathom someone legitimately wanting something different than your own perspective.

If you look at that other recent medic thread, half a dozen people explicitly state they want infection spreading back. I list reasons why I like it (I went into much more detail on that over a year ago if you're interested). The thread itself is pages long now because of people arguing with it. If everyone wanted infection removed, that wouldn't happen. You can't please all sides because people are divided on it. But if you have to ask that these people seriously want it, what do you think this is? Do you think every person who does want it back is trolling or just making shit up for the hell of it? When someone is stating reasons why they like a feature that was taken away and the benefits it had, why would they make that up?

Again, you can be in complete disagreement on an issue, but at least UNDERSTAND why someone disagrees. Without that, any pretense of accepting community input is a joke, because the assumption will be that they're not even serious about their claim, thus they can never legitimately present an alternate viewpoint. I believe this causes FF to stagnate.

For example: I completely disagree with nerfing the sg and making the push so low. My reasoning was that it plays a big part in eroding AvD defense. However after reading on the forums, I've learned that change was made with pickups in mind, where the main offense units are a medic and scout, classes whom a TFC-style sg might be seen as overkill for. So while I'm not happy about how it's dragged huge parts of the game through the mud at its expense, I can at least understand the reasoning behind it. It would be nice if more devs could do the same for people with different playstyles than them.

[mervaka]

i honestly cannot think of a good reason why infection spreading is a positive aspect in TFC, let alone FF. what use did it serve but to annoy people, and provide griefers with a tool in which they can maximise grief with minimal effort? it's counterintuitive to new players, ie: you'd think a medpack cures it, right? no, but you end up wandering back into the spawn and infecting teammates.

EDIT: Okay, so I read back on this thread regarding your viewpoint (which i interpret as "teammates having a negative impact on each other" etc? correct me if i'm wrong), and assuming i understand your viewpoint correctly, I don't see what's left to discuss. You seem to want to have in this game almost exactly what we're actively trying to remove. We've also told you why we're removing it. My opinion is that the pros far outweigh the cons.