02-27-2010, 10:32 AM | #541 | ||
A Very Sound Guy!
Fortress Forever Staff
Join Date: May 2005
Location: UK
Posts Rated Helpful 15 Times
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shotguns most people have, so they're on a level pegging. |
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02-28-2010, 04:35 AM | #542 | |||
Slayer of humans
D&A Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Mostly on earth though in some alt dimensions
Class/Position: I'm an Offensive Defensive person Gametype: Fortress Forever Affiliations: I'm a merc, only thing that talks is money Posts Rated Helpful 3 Times
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And other admins have said they are considering removing the class in other posts. And the closest thing I seen on the last page or so back was... Quote:
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Sniper is designed to be long distance, removing that pretty much means killin the sniper. All classes can do short range ok, though spy is the best at it. All classes can do medium range, though Pyro is best at it. All classes can do long range, though sniper is best at it. I see people complaining about all the classes. This class is over powered, that class is over powered. And its all with the same patch and I keep hearing the same thing from patch to patch. People are going to complain, they just need to learn how to dodge better and fight better. Most of the classes are fine as they are, there are only a few tweaks I would suggest. Totally changing the sniper just because some people can't get past them is not the right thing to do. |
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02-28-2010, 12:39 PM | #543 |
Gets tickled by FF
Fortress Forever Staff
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: UK
Class/Position: Med Solly HW Gametype: Any/CTF Posts Rated Helpful 41 Times
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Sniper can do infinite range, no other class can.
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02-28-2010, 02:34 PM | #544 |
Slayer of humans
D&A Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Mostly on earth though in some alt dimensions
Class/Position: I'm an Offensive Defensive person Gametype: Fortress Forever Affiliations: I'm a merc, only thing that talks is money Posts Rated Helpful 3 Times
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All classes can do infinite range. And yes I have killed, long range, with all these weapons. I have also been killed by all these weapons long range
Shotguns will go end to end on a map Minigun will go end to end on a map Railgun will go end to end on a map Tranq dart will go end to end on a map Rocket will go end to end on a map The only one who doesn't have a weapon that can go from end to end is the civilian (though I hear you guys were thinking of giving him a tommy gun a little while back). |
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02-28-2010, 03:07 PM | #545 | |
AKA LittleAndroidMan
D&A Member
Beta Tester Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Dystopia
Class/Position: Demo/Medic Gametype: CTF Affiliations: [TALOS] [SR] Posts Rated Helpful 11 Times
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That is an example of a 'false equivalency'. There's no logical comparison between the crime and punishment delivered between the two individuals. Much in the same way, that comparing a weapon that specializes in long-rage combat (Notice how the Sniper Rifle is the only weapon out of all the other weapons you listed that has a SCOPE) is able to kill people across a map to another weapon, that, by pure happenstance and reasonable deduction will eventually deal damage and/or kill someone across the map. There is a fundamental difference between a sniper rifle, and ANY OTHER weapon that can deal damage from far distances. I'm sorry sir, but if you don't see this distinction, it's time to get a lobotomy. You're comparing a big ass apple, to a tiny ass orange, and simultaneously making a fool out of yourself.
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02-28-2010, 03:19 PM | #546 |
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2008
Class/Position: Soldier Gametype: AVD Affiliations: TALOS Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times
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These weapons can kill people at long range. You're right. However, it's very impractical and ineffective using these weapons at long range. Can people consistently kill others with these weapons at longer ranges? Projectiles like the rocket and tranquillizer dart and railgun beam have travel times which force you to lead your shots. The shotguns also suffer in terms of accuracy because of their spread.
The Sniper's Rifle, on the other hand, is very effective and practical at killing enemies consistently at longer ranges. The weapon is hitscan which means (in principle, hitboxes, etc) you don't have to lead your shots. The damage, enough to insta-gib anything other than Heavy or Soldier anywhere except the head, doesn't decrease with range as/and there is no spread; The bullet always goes where you aim. Should weapons work at long range in any shape or form? I've recently concluded that I think Fortress Forever would be better limiting all interactions to close range. However, does that mean you can instantly paint all current long-range capable weapons with the same brush we use on the Sniper's weapon of choice? No. I really think it's a shitty comparison. |
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02-28-2010, 04:22 PM | #547 | |||||||||||||||||
AKA LittleAndroidMan
D&A Member
Beta Tester Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Dystopia
Class/Position: Demo/Medic Gametype: CTF Affiliations: [TALOS] [SR] Posts Rated Helpful 11 Times
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Stop trying to cover your trails, and just admit you're being intellectual dishonest. Quote:
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And no, sir, I don't believe that you simply 'forgot', because the very arguments I'm talking about (the ones which you ignored), were debated by you, just a few posts above the one which I responded to originally. Instead, you're showing a trend of intellectual dishonesty. I don't know if you're being intentionally dishonest, or you're so confused and partisan that all your mind can muster is a half-assed defense of your class, but it's pretty clear from my perspective that you're being intellectual dishonest. Quote:
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I didn't directly counter it, because I was pointing out how, basically, what you did was rely on (yet another) logical fallacy. You based your entire counter-argument on what the player can do to dodge the sniper. I point that out here; Quote:
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I've already pointed out multiple times how your posts are trending towards intellectual dishonesty, it's within reason to surmise that, indeed, this is just another ploy of yours to be intellectually dishonest. That's fine and all, just stop playing the victim, thanks. 'i am a victim' Quote:
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If you take out the sniper or nerf it badly you're going to loose more players then you gain. And it WILL NOT ONLY BE PEOPLE WHO ONLY PLAY SNIPERS who will leave. It will also be people like me that enjoy playing against good snipers.[/quote] I hear a vast majority of people bitching about snipers than those who defend them. For some reason, I don't fully believe you, especially given your recent history... Quote:
By default snipers are disabled in those environments (for good reason), so that really isn't a problem.
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02-28-2010, 05:54 PM | #548 |
poisonduckie
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: ohio
Class/Position: Scout Gametype: Capture the Flag Affiliations: [CfH] Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times
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Well I want to tune in one more time. In my opinion I don't think it would be fair just to remove the sniper from the game. If you were to take the sniper out then it would not be fair to those who like him in the game or to the people who map sniper maps.
I think a more fair approach would be to make it available for the server owners to have lua files with sniper dissabled. I think there are plenty of people who don't like the sniper so getting the fixes should be easy enough. Just have them on this site for download. I have made the point before that taking out the sniper would really be a slap to the face for people like me who have been playing tfc/ff for a long time. I like the sniper, I rarely use the class but I do like the class in the game. I can also say that there are maps that they do not belong in. If there cannot be some kind of middle ground to be agreed upon then you can't really say you are being fair or objective in the argument. A lua fix for those who want it would be the best way to come to an agreement IMO. So before you bash my idea(whoever responds), come up with your own idea to make it fair to all. Obviously there are more against the idea than for it so I don't see how it could be just forced. No, a middle ground needs to be found.
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Everyone runs faster with a knife. Last edited by PoisonDuckie; 02-28-2010 at 05:55 PM. |
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02-28-2010, 06:18 PM | #549 |
Banned
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Class/Position: Soldier Gametype: AVD Affiliations: TALOS Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times
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Server owners and map makers can already disable Snipers. They won't do that, though. You know why? They don't give a shit about whether or not the Sniper is broken, because appealing to the Snipers means their server is a few more players popular than the next and with only two or three servers going around, man. . . This fairness issue is laughable, especially considering the people who play the most unfair class in the game are the ones complaining about getting screwed.
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02-28-2010, 06:23 PM | #550 | |
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times
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also genghistron, that was a complete waste of a post, he asked what he missed and you didn't even tell him? what are these points that your are talking about that he missed? name them directly and he can counter them. for some reason you have yet to name the posts or arguments he left out. instead you choose to sit there and insult. EDIT: BRIDGETS POST: wait im confused. if there are really THAT many people that hate sniper then they would have no problem populating a server that does not allow a sniper. are you sure thats the reason? or do you just think thats the reason? if i hated the sniper as much as you briget i would only play on a server that removed the sniper, and if as many people as you claim have the same feeling, you have nothing to worry aobut. there will be 2 servers populated one with and one without sniper. whats the problem? Last edited by SSCUJO; 02-28-2010 at 06:27 PM. |
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02-28-2010, 06:56 PM | #551 | |
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2008
Class/Position: Soldier Gametype: AVD Affiliations: TALOS Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times
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Notice, this doesn't mean the Scout should be able to own a Heavy. All this suggests is that the Scout should be able to utilize his maximum potential at the same fucking time the Heavy can, though given the way the class works, this situation would be avoided all together. If I am playing * (minus Sniper) against * (minus Sniper), given our range restrictions, we both focus on trying to win the battle at the same time. Against a Sniper, you have to focus half the time on closing the distance and preventing your early death before you even reach the point where you can persuade the fight in your favor. My comment was on server owners. They want as many players as possible, often without regard for what's fair and what's not. Though, players are reluctant to move to other servers for many reasons. The servers they are already on provide social constructs, communities, provide familiar faces, organize stuff, and so on. Those aspects become especially fragile considering how small this community is. I'd rather get Sniped over and over on the Talos server than play Sniper-free on some lone server with nobodies. |
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03-01-2010, 02:28 AM | #552 |
Exceedingly Correct.
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: London, England.
Class/Position: Variable Gametype: QuakeLive CTF Posts Rated Helpful 1 Times
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The Sniper is certainly not overpowered, but it is the king of long range. The Scout is the only class worse than a Sniper up close and at mid range.
The Sniper is also one of the most fun and entertaining classes in FF (which says a lot). It is especially appealing amongst the newer players and those that haven't grasped concing/trimping/bhing and other stuff. It's very easy to learn what to do as a Sniper, although it still takes skill to be a good one (both in positioning and aiming among other things). A Sniper is very good at taking out an individual at long range. It is next to useless at taking out a group at long range, dealing with pressure at long/mid/short ranges and taking damage of any form. On many occasions as a Sniper you have a window of one or two seconds to take your shot at an opponent before they are out of sight or moving too fast (to hit consistently). If you miss you are usually dead, or forced to run away (assuming the target is after you rather than charging your base). I've been Sniped many times and I really don't see the problem with the Sniper. No one likes dying at long range before they've had a chance to perform their role, but that's the Snipers only weapon. If you had proper teamplay when attacking you'd have far less of an issue with a Sniper, but everyone wants to be an individual and a Sniper is a good individual class. |
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03-01-2010, 07:26 PM | #553 | |
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times
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Remember my suggestions here on page 25 http://forums.fortress-forever.com/s...=21345&page=25
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Couldn't figure out something to balance these negatives. Well what about this? The charging process (however extra long it takes) slows down movement speed as usual. But once the gun is fully charged, they can run at normal speed. |
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03-01-2010, 09:36 PM | #554 | |
Exceedingly Correct.
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: London, England.
Class/Position: Variable Gametype: QuakeLive CTF Posts Rated Helpful 1 Times
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03-02-2010, 11:49 PM | #555 |
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times
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03-03-2010, 12:12 AM | #556 |
Exceedingly Correct.
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: London, England.
Class/Position: Variable Gametype: QuakeLive CTF Posts Rated Helpful 1 Times
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You could reverse the charge-up time.
By that I mean let the Sniper shoot instantly at full power, just let the power automatically charge up afterwards. The Sniper can shoot before it's charged with less power as it can now of course. Combine this with the initial changes I mentioned such as decreasing the time between full power shots and removing armour and you have a pretty decent glass cannon class. |
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03-03-2010, 12:24 AM | #557 |
Fortress Forever Staff
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts Rated Helpful 45 Times
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We could stop making maps with a 10 mile wide open midmap.
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03-03-2010, 06:09 AM | #558 |
Retired FF Staff
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: The Peoples Republic of Harmfull Free Radicals.
Class/Position: Soldier, O Gametype: Doubble Mode Affiliations: Cassiotone Nation Posts Rated Helpful 1 Times
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That's the best solution.
Seriously, wtf were they thinking with maps like Tiger and Anticitizen? Sarcasm aside, it really is a level design issue. A lot of the maps in FF are much bigger than TF maps were designed to be. This is especially important in CTF maps.
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TG: pretty much you have no idea how much i fuckin own at this game. TG: i bested no less than three flaming tornados and broke a huge wizard. |
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03-03-2010, 06:19 AM | #559 |
Banned
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Class/Position: Soldier Gametype: AVD Affiliations: TALOS Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times
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It's not a level design issue. It's the Sniper.
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03-03-2010, 08:13 AM | #560 |
Retired FF Staff
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: The Peoples Republic of Harmfull Free Radicals.
Class/Position: Soldier, O Gametype: Doubble Mode Affiliations: Cassiotone Nation Posts Rated Helpful 1 Times
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Orly?
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TG: pretty much you have no idea how much i fuckin own at this game. TG: i bested no less than three flaming tornados and broke a huge wizard. |
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argument, balance, long range, mechanics, sniper |
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