Subtle Ownage about Religion

[o_uber]

Lol kids, calm down. These ideas are not a creation of my imagination. These have long been philosophical arguments for God. Apparently you guys like to neglect reading entires posts. At any rate, just take philosophy 101 class you may start to understand some things that I say.

It's the ontological argument that, again, has been around for a long time, and not a reproduction of something I've made up.
"Now we believe that [the Lord] is something than which nothing greater can be imagined. Then is there no such nature, since the fool has said in his heart: God is not? But certainly this same fool, when he hears this very thing that I am saying – something than which nothing greater can be imagined – understands what he hears; and what he understands is in his understanding, even if he does not understand that it is. For it is one thing for a thing to be in the understanding and another to understand that a thing is. For when a painter imagines beforehand what he is going to make, he has in his understanding what he has not yet made but he does not yet understand that it is. But when he has already painted it, he both has in his understanding what he has already painted and understands that it is. Therefore even the fool is bound to agree that there is at least in the understanding something than which nothing greater can be imagined, because when he hears this he understands it, and whatever is understood is in the understanding. And certainly that than which a greater cannot be imagined cannot be in the understanding alone. For if it is at least in the understanding alone, it can be imagined to be in reality too, which is greater. Therefore if that than which a greater cannot be imagined is in the understanding alone, that very thing than which a greater cannot be imagined is something than which a greater can be imagined. But certainly this cannot be. There exists, therefore, beyond doubt something than which a greater cannot be imagined, both in the understanding and in reality."

Then of course detractors use the argument of evil, omnipotence (can God create a rock so heavy that He cannot lift it?), and cosmological arguments (chicken vs. egg), etcetera. Again, have been around for ages. I was just trying to present to you some classical arguments after you asked.

[o_ekim]

So are you uninterested in defending these arguments or are you incapable?

[o_loader]

Originally Posted by ekiM

So are you uninterested in defending these arguments or are you incapable?

I love you ekim.

[o_yomamashouse]

As do I.

[o_uber]

Lol, I'm not a philosopher, and I will not pretend to be. I am not here to think for you. After asking a question, I have presented to you some arguments. They are not my arguments. They are arguments that have been used many times, and I am so obliged only to present them.

[o_ekim]

Originally Posted by uBeR

I am not here to think for you

I didn't ask you to. I criticised the arguments you presented. If you don't actually agree with them then why do you care? If you do agree with them then why are you unwilling to defend them?

They are not my arguments.

Oh, why didn't you say so before?

They are arguments that have been used many times, and I am so obliged only to present them.

I am asking whether you have any faith in these arguments.

[BritishTang]

Originally Posted by ekiM

So.. why do you have faith?

Good question. I guess it comes down to how I feel. Based on personal prayer, I believe that the things that I have faith in are true. By definition Faith is a belief in something for which there is no physical proof.

Which of-course goes against all the schooling and University study I have ever had.

But I think of it this way - I work in the medical field, you see alot of people die and or slip the bounds. And you realize that there has got to be something more than just, organs and electrical signals shooting through our brains.

I never have forced anyone else to become my religion or face "damnation" but I will always share my beliefs.

Let us continue to discuss.

[o_loader]

I believe that when you die.. Well, that's it; you die. No pearly gates, no living as a toad for a while etc.

[o_ekim]

Originally Posted by BritishTang

Good question. I guess it comes down to how I feel. Based on personal prayer, I believe that the things that I have faith in are true.

Well, if you didn't then you wouldn't have faith in them I guess it's probably sensible to ask what you do have faith in. God (and what is God?)? Souls? An afterlife?

But I think of it this way - I work in the medical field, you see alot of people die and or slip the bounds. And you realize that there has got to be something more than just, organs and electrical signals shooting through our brains.

Well I don't think it's at all unreasonable to believe in mind/body dualism, maybe even a soul (whatever that means). But would the existence of souls imply any particular religion? I can't really say any more without knowing what you do actually believe!

I never have forced anyone else to become my religion or face "damnation" but I will always share my beliefs.

Good to know!

[BritishTang]

Awesome! Well, I believe in God, that god being the god of the old testament, the god of the new testament, the god of jacob, whichever you want to call him. For all intensive purposes. God.

In the old and new testaments god had what we(my religion) believe was his church on the earth. Whenever his church was on this earth he always had prophets. A prophet being a man elected of god, to recieve instructions from god so that he can keep god's church true on this earth.

We believe that the truthfulness of his church was slowly lost after the death of christ, (which will be explained more towards the bottom)

At which time god again called a Prophet named Joseph Smith who established the church that I now belong to. That being, "The Church of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints" (Mormons).

Our whole religions hinges on whether or not Joseph Smith was really an elect of god, if he was - then we have a succession of Prophets from Joseph Smith until this very day who lead and guide our church. If not - well then it is the opposite.

I'll get you guys the bullet points on basic mormon belief now,

* God is our Heavenly Father. He loves us and wants us to return to Him.
* Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He is our Savior. He redeems us from death by providing the Resurrection. He saves us from sin as we repent.
* Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, we can return to live with God if we keep His commandments.
* The Holy Ghost helps us to recognize truth.
* The first principles and ordinances of the gospel are faith in Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism, and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost.
* The Church of Jesus Christ has been restored to the earth.
* The priesthood authority of God exists in His Church today, just as it did in the original Church.
* The Bible and the Book of Mormon are the word of God.
* God reveals His will to prophets today, just as He did anciently.
* Our life has a sacred purpose.
* Families can be together forever.
* Through serving others, we can experience joy and draw closer to God.

Alright, and if I'm horrible and describing this or confusing, here is a quick cliff note paragraph from our churches website,

When Jesus Christ lived on the earth, He organized His Church so that all people could receive His gospel and return one day to live with God, our Heavenly Father. After Jesus Christ ascended to heaven, His Apostles continued to receive revelation from Him on how to direct the work of His Church. However, after they were killed, members changed the teachings of the Church that He had established. While many good people and some truth remained, this Apostasy, or general falling away from the truth, brought about the withdrawal of the Church from the earth. The Apostle Peter prophesied that Jesus would restore His Church before His Second Coming (Acts 3:19–21).

Jesus Christ began to restore His Church in its fulness to the earth through the Prophet Joseph Smith in 1820. It has grown to become a worldwide Church with over 12 million members. It has the same teachings and basic organization as the Church established by Jesus in New Testament times.

So, anyhow, those are my beliefs in a giant nutshell - if you want to know about deeper doctrine about what we believe about the creation, and the universe I'll fill you in. If I don't respond quickly enough, www.lds.org or www.mormon.org

Disclaimer: These are my beliefs, and I certainly do not force them upon you, and I in no way intend to offend anyone if offense is taken.

[o_uber]

Originally Posted by ekiM

I didn't ask you to. I criticised the arguments you presented. If you don't actually agree with them then why do you care? If you do agree with them then why are you unwilling to defend them?



Oh, why didn't you say so before?



I am asking whether you have any faith in these arguments.

Well you didn't make any criticism other than it's "ludicrous." Are you uninterested in making any constructive criticism or are you incapable?

And like I said, I cannot go around acting like I am a philosopher or know much about it. Any defense would be poor in comparison to someone who knows a thing about it, which is why I suggested you talk to someone in the TFC community who is one of the most brilliant persons I've talked to about the subject. He's a great thinker, and I told you where you can find him on mIRC. At any rate, like I said, I am only so obliged to present them because they are historical arguments. Do I have to agree with every argument I present to illustrate to someone some typical arguments used? I hope not.

[o_sh4x]

Originally Posted by BritishTang

Awesome! Well, I believe in God, that god being the god of the old testament, the god of the new testament, the god of jacob, whichever you want to call him. For all intensive purposes. God.

In the old and new testaments god had what we(my religion) believe was his church on the earth. Whenever his church was on this earth he always had prophets. A prophet being a man elected of god, to recieve instructions from god so that he can keep god's church true on this earth.

We believe that the truthfulness of his church was slowly lost after the death of christ, (which will be explained more towards the bottom)

At which time god again called a Prophet named Joseph Smith who established the church that I now belong to. That being, "The Church of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints" (Mormons).

Our whole religions hinges on whether or not Joseph Smith was really an elect of god, if he was - then we have a succession of Prophets from Joseph Smith until this very day who lead and guide our church. If not - well then it is the opposite.

I'll get you guys the bullet points on basic mormon belief now,

* God is our Heavenly Father. He loves us and wants us to return to Him.
* Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He is our Savior. He redeems us from death by providing the Resurrection. He saves us from sin as we repent.
* Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, we can return to live with God if we keep His commandments.
* The Holy Ghost helps us to recognize truth.
* The first principles and ordinances of the gospel are faith in Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism, and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost.
* The Church of Jesus Christ has been restored to the earth.
* The priesthood authority of God exists in His Church today, just as it did in the original Church.
* The Bible and the Book of Mormon are the word of God.
* God reveals His will to prophets today, just as He did anciently.
* Our life has a sacred purpose.
* Families can be together forever.
* Through serving others, we can experience joy and draw closer to God.

Alright, and if I'm horrible and describing this or confusing, here is a quick cliff note paragraph from our churches website,


So, anyhow, those are my beliefs in a giant nutshell - if you want to know about deeper doctrine about what we believe about the creation, and the universe I'll fill you in. If I don't respond quickly enough, www.lds.org or www.mormon.org

Disclaimer: These are my beliefs, and I certainly do not force them upon you, and I in no way intend to offend anyone if offense is taken.

If I were good in english I'd take the time to write something on mormons but since I suck... you can check out South Park's episode on mormons if you wanna know what I think.

[o_yomamashouse]

I actually like Mormons despite my immense disdain of Joseph Smith. Something about their acceptance/appreciation of other people's beliefs makes me think of Buddhists who are my number 1 loved religion of all existence. Mormons kicked the pagans out of second a while back.

One question, are Mormons fundamentalists, AKA everyone else goes to hell? I'm almost certain you guys aren't from what I've heard and the whole accepting other cultures thing but i just wanna be certain, leave no stone unturned.

Are you uninterested in making any constructive criticism or are you incapable?

Uh-oh ekiM, hoisted by your own petard!!

[o_drtom]

god is an electron

[BritishTang]

Originally Posted by YoMamasHouse

are Mormons fundamentalists,

Nope. We believe good people go to the good place. You murder people, and well, bad stuff.

[o_sh4x]

That's recomforting, isn't it?

Bad ppl will go to bad places and good ppl to good places. Pure genius!

[o_uber]

So genius that every national government and every substantiated religion has adopted the idea.

[BritishTang]

Originally Posted by Sh4x

That's recomforting, isn't it?

Bad ppl will go to bad places and good ppl to good places. Pure genius!

In theory our justice system works in the same way.

[o_sh4x]

Of course it does. It wouldn't work if it was to be the other way around.

I just don't understand for what reason someone would think of an afterlife built on the same principle other than because it makes him feel warm inside.

[o_ekim]

Originally Posted by uBeR

Well you didn't make any criticism other than it's "ludicrous." Are you uninterested in making any constructive criticism or are you incapable?

I am certainly capable of making a more detailed criticism of Anselm's ontological argument. Not much point is there, given there is nobody here who would defend it? I pointed out that all currently known ontological arguments are ludicrous just to check that you were in accord. I still don't know if you are.

The widely accepted consensus of the philosophical community is that there is no known ontological argument that is both valid and persuasive. It is still an open question whether an ontological argument could ever be valid and persuasive.

It's a mystery how I could possibly know this given that I haven't taken Philosophy 101 (as you so astutely observed!), but there you go.

Originally Posted by uBeR

And like I said, I cannot go around acting like I am a philosopher or know much about it. Any defense would be poor in comparison to someone who knows a thing about it

Oh, uBeR, you are so humble! Truly a neglected virtue in this modern world. Except, except, you're still being a condescending tosspot to anyone who questions the arguments you present. Incongruous!

Originally Posted by uBeR

At any rate, like I said, I am only so obliged to present them because they are historical arguments. Do I have to agree with every argument I present to illustrate to someone some typical arguments used? I hope not.

No, you don't. However you also don't need to be a condescending tosspot when people note that the arguments you present are garbage. All you would have to say is "Yeah, I know. I don't agree with them; they were just examples of failed past attempts". Or even "I agree with them but I don't think I'm qualified to defend them, why not talk to X or read Y". Saying "lol u kids, take philosophy 101 and you might understand what I'm saying. I'm not here to think for you!" is a slightly less apt pronouncement.

Hey, you still haven't answered whether you think Anselm's ontological or the "probabilistic(sic)" argument are valid or persuasive. Why so evasive? Even "I don't know" is an answer.