General Mapping Question

o_imbrifer · 05-21-2005, 05:42 PM

Greetings, I have a question:

Is it easier on the graphics card to:

A) Have a big box around your map (or a number of brushes roughly molded to the border of your map) and make all the solids inside into func_details, or

B) Have your map not in one big box, but have dozens (and perhaps hundreds) of solids as your maps border

I know its bad form to encompass everything in a box, but I also know that turning solids into func_details saves on graphics cards and compile times - so this is the inevitable conflict.

Thanks

o_dr zauis · 05-21-2005, 07:50 PM

my insides burn from reading that....NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER
Make one huge box. EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER

o_epothon · 05-21-2005, 11:39 PM

I will personaly see that you die a horribly slow death if you box ur map

Think of the frames per second.... OOOH please wont someone think of the frames per second !?!

o_buckshot enema[x7] · 05-22-2005, 03:29 AM

All he's looking for is a reasonable answer to his question. It is better to model everything out of solid brushes and then only func_detail the complex/intersecting shapes or the ones that split the world geometry up a lot. Don't func_detail everything inside and make a big box around it, it'll run like poo.

o_imbrifer · 05-22-2005, 07:38 AM

Thanks to everyone for the answers - and thanks Buckshot - I've never put a big box around my levels and I won't.. just wanted to double check that the reduced graphics load from func_detail doesn't outweigh the increased graphics load from boxing your level.

Rock on...

Defrag · 05-22-2005, 01:21 PM

It actually depends. If you look at the valve SP levels, a lot of their outdoor areas are created as one enormous box, with displacements (cheap to render) & occluders (+ max render distance) taking care of the framerate problems. I don't think this is a good idea for MP maps, though. It'd probably lag to hell because although you're not rendering everything, the server would probably think you can see everything in the map and send you updates on every entity in the map as a result.

As to whether to use one big box & func_details... no. Definitely not. Remember that the bsp system is used for a reason, it splits the gameworld into manageable chunks.

The best way to do it is simply this:
If your geometry is needed to block line of sight & vis, keep it as a world brush. This typically means your basic architecture.

If certain areas consist of superfluous or complicated/angled architecture or do not benefit the vis system, make them a func_detail.

If you have a combination of both, make the basic architecture world brushes, and bind the complex parts to func_detail brushes. I typically do this by keeping my basic world architecture very orthoganal (or as orthoganal as can be) and then adding detail to the architecture with the use of func_detail brushes. For example, if I were to create an area with a curved ceiling, I'd first make the basic shape of the room with a rectangular brushes, then I'd put in the angled roof detail using func_detail brushes.

Once I release some bases media I'll post a tutorial concerning func_detail useage, as well as GLview. The use of these two things can optimise a map greatly.

o_imbrifer · 05-23-2005, 02:07 AM

Thanks Defrag - and I look forward to the release of the info..

o_sns ceo · 05-24-2005, 05:44 AM

Do you think you could release source code to one of the official FF maps (after the releas of course)? Kinda like what valve did in the sdk?

Defrag · 05-24-2005, 06:05 AM

Possibly

... but no promises

o_imbrifer · 05-24-2005, 04:20 PM

I have a related question:

I was working on my map, and I realized that some parts of the map were looking like I just 'boxed them in' because I use a significant number of displacement surfaces, so I have 2 questions:

1. I know displacement surfaces do not block light - is it okay to use brushes with the noclip texture behind them as a 'map border'?

2. What is the best way to seperate displacement surfaces from 'the void'?

o_buckshot enema[x7] · 05-24-2005, 09:14 PM

I think the best method is what you mentioned... brushes covered in "noclip" textures. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

o_shadow34721 · 05-25-2005, 12:36 AM

This seems like a good place to ask whether it is better for rendering or compiling to use 'skip' textures than 'nodraw'?
Just seeking some clarification.

o_saintgreg · 05-31-2005, 04:02 AM

2 is the best way for 1 except its nodraw not noclip. If you have a big hill or something made of displacements, its probably a good idea to put nodraw world brushes underneath to approximate the hill for vis blocking.

I think they do the same thing, but its probably smarter to use nodraw than skip, as the only real use for skip is in conjunction with hint.

05-21-2005, 05:42 PM	#1
o_imbrifer Join Date: May 2005 Location: Changes every few months Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	General Mapping Question Greetings, I have a question: Is it easier on the graphics card to: A) Have a big box around your map (or a number of brushes roughly molded to the border of your map) and make all the solids inside into func_details, or B) Have your map not in one big box, but have dozens (and perhaps hundreds) of solids as your maps border I know its bad form to encompass everything in a box, but I also know that turning solids into func_details saves on graphics cards and compile times - so this is the inevitable conflict. Thanks

05-22-2005, 01:21 PM	#6
Defrag Retired FF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Scotland Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	It actually depends. If you look at the valve SP levels, a lot of their outdoor areas are created as one enormous box, with displacements (cheap to render) & occluders (+ max render distance) taking care of the framerate problems. I don't think this is a good idea for MP maps, though. It'd probably lag to hell because although you're not rendering everything, the server would probably think you can see everything in the map and send you updates on every entity in the map as a result. As to whether to use one big box & func_details... no. Definitely not. Remember that the bsp system is used for a reason, it splits the gameworld into manageable chunks. The best way to do it is simply this: If your geometry is needed to block line of sight & vis, keep it as a world brush. This typically means your basic architecture. If certain areas consist of superfluous or complicated/angled architecture or do not benefit the vis system, make them a func_detail. If you have a combination of both, make the basic architecture world brushes, and bind the complex parts to func_detail brushes. I typically do this by keeping my basic world architecture very orthoganal (or as orthoganal as can be) and then adding detail to the architecture with the use of func_detail brushes. For example, if I were to create an area with a curved ceiling, I'd first make the basic shape of the room with a rectangular brushes, then I'd put in the angled roof detail using func_detail brushes. Once I release some bases media I'll post a tutorial concerning func_detail useage, as well as GLview. The use of these two things can optimise a map greatly. __________________ Fortress Forever. Level Designer, Gameplay Dude and whatnot.

05-24-2005, 06:05 AM	#9
Defrag Retired FF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Scotland Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Possibly ... but no promises __________________ Fortress Forever. Level Designer, Gameplay Dude and whatnot.

05-21-2005, 07:50 PM	#2
o_dr zauis Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	my insides burn from reading that....NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER Make one huge box. EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER

05-21-2005, 11:39 PM	#3
o_epothon Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Belgium Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	I will personaly see that you die a horribly slow death if you box ur map Think of the frames per second.... OOOH please wont someone think of the frames per second !?!

05-22-2005, 03:29 AM	#4
o_buckshot enema[x7] Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: United States Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	All he's looking for is a reasonable answer to his question. It is better to model everything out of solid brushes and then only func_detail the complex/intersecting shapes or the ones that split the world geometry up a lot. Don't func_detail everything inside and make a big box around it, it'll run like poo.

05-22-2005, 07:38 AM	#5
o_imbrifer Join Date: May 2005 Location: Changes every few months Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Thanks to everyone for the answers - and thanks Buckshot - I've never put a big box around my levels and I won't.. just wanted to double check that the reduced graphics load from func_detail doesn't outweigh the increased graphics load from boxing your level. Rock on...

05-23-2005, 02:07 AM	#7
o_imbrifer Join Date: May 2005 Location: Changes every few months Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Thanks Defrag - and I look forward to the release of the info..

05-24-2005, 05:44 AM	#8
o_sns ceo Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Do you think you could release source code to one of the official FF maps (after the releas of course)? Kinda like what valve did in the sdk?

05-24-2005, 04:20 PM	#10
o_imbrifer Join Date: May 2005 Location: Changes every few months Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	I have a related question: I was working on my map, and I realized that some parts of the map were looking like I just 'boxed them in' because I use a significant number of displacement surfaces, so I have 2 questions: 1. I know displacement surfaces do not block light - is it okay to use brushes with the noclip texture behind them as a 'map border'? 2. What is the best way to seperate displacement surfaces from 'the void'?

05-24-2005, 09:14 PM	#11
o_buckshot enema[x7] Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: United States Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	I think the best method is what you mentioned... brushes covered in "noclip" textures. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

05-25-2005, 12:36 AM	#12
o_shadow34721 Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	This seems like a good place to ask whether it is better for rendering or compiling to use 'skip' textures than 'nodraw'? Just seeking some clarification.

05-31-2005, 04:02 AM	#13
o_saintgreg Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	2 is the best way for 1 except its nodraw not noclip. If you have a big hill or something made of displacements, its probably a good idea to put nodraw world brushes underneath to approximate the hill for vis blocking. I think they do the same thing, but its probably smarter to use nodraw than skip, as the only real use for skip is in conjunction with hint.

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