Grognard Capture - Page 2

o_rebo · 03-07-2005, 02:34 PM

Ah yes ekiM but at the topper most levels surely playing to win ( to the exclusion of all else) is kinda unfun. I.e. in clan matches where one clan takes the lead and then goes 8 man defense. Surely thats the optimum strategy?

o_ekim · 03-07-2005, 03:04 PM

Which is why "unwritten rules", etiquette, gentlemens' agreements come about. Because the game is broken, and 8 man defences work. Ideally FF wouldn't be broken in that way, but that's a pretty lofty goal. Playing to win _at all_ and playing to win to the extreme is kind of different and I wasn't talking about the extreme version. Perhaps i should rephrase to "playing to win as hard as possible, within the etiquette of a game".

Jiggles · 03-07-2005, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cruor

Perhaps that tips and hints could even be triggered by map-entities like you past a certain place on the map and it said something like "In the vicinity of where you now are is a good place to place your sentrygun".

That's kind of what Dos intended when he mentioned the "NS-like" autohelp system.

Dospac · 03-07-2005, 10:33 PM

Actually, 8 man defense breaking the game says nothing bad about the game itself. All games played at a professional level have rules in place to prevent various game breaking situations from occuring. Things like offsides, "3 in the key", limitations on the # of players at the line of scrimmage in the NFL. All these are very similar to rules imposed by TFC leagues like max 4d/4o. Sportsmanship rules are also very common.

The fact that TFC leagues haven't adopted these kinds of rules in some cases speaks against them and the level of play in the game itself. Ideally, these types of rules would exist, at least on a per map basis.

o_blufive · 03-08-2005, 12:50 AM

Quote:

how did such a good thread get hijacked by tetris :/

I can stop playing tetris any time I want. Just because I try to figure out how to rotate every object in the room around me to tesselate with its neighbours, does not mean I have a problem.

o_qbaler · 03-08-2005, 02:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eat

I think the biggest challenge will be drumming up enough press so there are enough newbies to outnumber the old TFC players. If a newbie goes onto a pub server and there are 10 veteran players doing conc jumping, bhoping and ramp sliding they will be completely bewildered and wont stand a chance. On the other hand if a newbie joins a pub with 10 other newbies and 1 veteran they'll have a good time learning the game and hopefully inspired by the veteran who will hopefully stop to teach them some tricks.

I've seen a couple of tfc servers based on helping noobs and I think I may create one for FF. A server where everybody is welcome but if you are a verteran you actualy help your noob teamates instead of yelling at them and saying how much they suck. This would give the vets a place to hang out and have some fun while allowing noobs to play against other noobs with the help of vets to teach them something new and help them get acuanted with the game.

o_shaolin · 03-08-2005, 10:38 AM

How about setting up a number of servers for new players and giving their IP's on the website? "Head along to these servers to learn some of the more advanced skills" etc.
As long as the servers were admined by people interested in helping the newer players (i.e. banning the odd muppet who goes on to humiliate newer players) and actually had some experienced guys on there willing to help, it would build the community. New players can check the FF website and see servers to go and learn the game/tricks on.

o_qbaler · 03-08-2005, 06:47 PM

this brings to mind the ns idea of helpers. Where a few steam id's are hard coded into the game and there name appears differently. Noobs will know to look for these ppl and ask them for help. (would be hard part on FF though deciding who gets the job and it would be hard to ensure that they dont slack off tpf style and become lamers)

o_voipme · 03-08-2005, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by qbaler

Quote:

Originally Posted by eat

I think the biggest challenge will be drumming up enough press so there are enough newbies to outnumber the old TFC players. If a newbie goes onto a pub server and there are 10 veteran players doing conc jumping, bhoping and ramp sliding they will be completely bewildered and wont stand a chance. On the other hand if a newbie joins a pub with 10 other newbies and 1 veteran they'll have a good time learning the game and hopefully inspired by the veteran who will hopefully stop to teach them some tricks.

I've seen a couple of tfc servers based on helping noobs and I think I may create one for FF. A server where everybody is welcome but if you are a verteran you actualy help your noob teamates instead of yelling at them and saying how much they suck. This would give the vets a place to hang out and have some fun while allowing noobs to play against other noobs with the help of vets to teach them something new and help them get acuanted with the game.

Just the other day, I joined a server that said something along the lines of "Open Tryouts" or whatever. As soon as I joined, I noticed that it was 5v5 (me included), on monkey_l, so I asked "O v D?". No response. So I randomly selected a team, looked at what classes everyone was playing, and decided that I was on the O team. I picked scout, and headed to the front door. I asked "am I intruding or anything?", as a form or courtesy just to be sure that I wasn't interrupting anyone's tryout. There were about 5 people from the clan on the server, all of which none responded. (They were chatting back in forth while ignoring me). Just then, someone on my team pipes up and goes "yeah, gtfo." So I left.

As a seasoned TFC player, I've come to expect that kind of shit from the average pub filled with "veteran" TFC players. How is it even possible for any new player to even WANT to play TFC again after experiencing anything like that? I understand that the dev team is doing their best to make FF much more newbie friendly, but they can only do so much. The already established community of TFC player moving over to FF are going to be the people truly responsible for making FF a great game. FF could be designed as one of the most incredible games ever made, but would fail if the community of TFC (on the hole, the members here are excluded) play FF. I'm sick of this ongoing trend of people simply disrespecting other players because they ask questions. I'm sick of this elitest attitude held by those who have mastered the skills of TFC.

o_sobe green · 03-08-2005, 07:40 PM

Anybody having a tryout on a server without a password can not complain about people joining their server IMO. Especially in this period where servers with players isn't very common.

Defrag · 03-08-2005, 08:24 PM

Lots of servers are full of assholes; it's pretty much a given these days. I got banned from an American server because I was O sniping.. if they didn't want snipers then they should just turn cr_sniper to -1. Of course the admin that banned me was sniping, too... I changed steamIDs (gotta love being able to do that with two accounts) then went back in (it was late and no other servers had players on 'em, otherwise I wouldn't have bothered). I tk'ed the admin later on by accident and got kicked again, came back and asked why he kicked me and got no answer. I then set about 'accidentally' concing the admin into the schtop water every run, so he had no idea who was doing it :E

If getting a kill as a sniper and then tking once in a map gets you banned and kicked respectively, I'm not sure if anyone is safe on those kinds of server. You just have to grin and bear it I guess. Same deal on most 'decent' servers -- the people playing there have a tendency to be assholes. If not the admins, the players themselves. Example: Yesterday on the CTFCL server someone (I won't name names) was giving a newbie a torrent of abuse for playing near his position. Not once did he say "Could you please defend somewhere else, I've already got this covered" or attempt to explain why the guy should move, he just abused the guy repeatedly without justifying it. It's a sadly prevalent thing these days.

Any time someone starts playing like that and I'm on D, I generally ask them to move and explain why. In a lot of cases the person will do as you ask (not always.. obviously) if you ask politely.

o_ghost · 03-08-2005, 11:10 PM

This all stems from lack of servers. Back when TFC was in its prime if there was a server with assholes like that you could just leave and go to another one. Also, there were a lot more newbies or at least people who were kinda good but didn't know everything there was to know about TFC filling up the servers.

o_thedarkone · 03-09-2005, 04:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GhOsT

This all stems from lack of servers. Back when TFC was in its prime if there was a server with assholes like that you could just leave and go to another one.

Just now Steam found 366 TFC servers with no password on them. Of those, 187 had players in them.

The problem isn't a lack of servers- if anything, there are probably too many servers, with the players spread too thinly out amongst them.

Dospac · 03-09-2005, 05:17 AM

117 servers with no bots and not empty from my list currently. 404 people playing. Some are being filtered because of high ping though.

*edit* doesn't account for the servers with bots and people playing, though.

o_the_truth · 03-09-2005, 09:19 AM

I think the best thing to do for the developers is to make the game like its new. Take all the necessary steps for a new player to comfortable adapt to the game. Maybe have a training mode where a player can go through each class and have them do certain tasks and such. I liked dospac's post on the cats and I think the FF team is doing a great job so far, but we will see when the mod actually comes out in what was it, 2007? hehe jk

Also I see where you guys are coming from when you talk about teaching people in pubs. I personally intend to do my best to keep seeding new players in the game. I already told my real life friends who got me into TFC back in 99-2000. Only they quit and I kept playing. But they were siked when they heard a new Team Fortress was coming out

, so there is definately a buzz creating around this game. Lets just hope it all comes together.

03-08-2005, 08:24 PM	#31
Defrag Retired FF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Scotland Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Lots of servers are full of assholes; it's pretty much a given these days. I got banned from an American server because I was O sniping.. if they didn't want snipers then they should just turn cr_sniper to -1. Of course the admin that banned me was sniping, too... I changed steamIDs (gotta love being able to do that with two accounts) then went back in (it was late and no other servers had players on 'em, otherwise I wouldn't have bothered). I tk'ed the admin later on by accident and got kicked again, came back and asked why he kicked me and got no answer. I then set about 'accidentally' concing the admin into the schtop water every run, so he had no idea who was doing it :E If getting a kill as a sniper and then tking once in a map gets you banned and kicked respectively, I'm not sure if anyone is safe on those kinds of server. You just have to grin and bear it I guess. Same deal on most 'decent' servers -- the people playing there have a tendency to be assholes. If not the admins, the players themselves. Example: Yesterday on the CTFCL server someone (I won't name names) was giving a newbie a torrent of abuse for playing near his position. Not once did he say "Could you please defend somewhere else, I've already got this covered" or attempt to explain why the guy should move, he just abused the guy repeatedly without justifying it. It's a sadly prevalent thing these days. Any time someone starts playing like that and I'm on D, I generally ask them to move and explain why. In a lot of cases the person will do as you ask (not always.. obviously) if you ask politely. __________________ Fortress Forever. Level Designer, Gameplay Dude and whatnot.

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03-07-2005, 02:34 PM	#21
o_rebo Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts Rated Helpful 1 Times	Ah yes ekiM but at the topper most levels surely playing to win ( to the exclusion of all else) is kinda unfun. I.e. in clan matches where one clan takes the lead and then goes 8 man defense. Surely thats the optimum strategy?

03-07-2005, 03:04 PM	#22
o_ekim Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bristol UK Posts Rated Helpful 1 Times	Which is why "unwritten rules", etiquette, gentlemens' agreements come about. Because the game is broken, and 8 man defences work. Ideally FF wouldn't be broken in that way, but that's a pretty lofty goal. Playing to win _at all_ and playing to win to the extreme is kind of different and I wasn't talking about the extreme version. Perhaps i should rephrase to "playing to win as hard as possible, within the etiquette of a game".

03-07-2005, 10:33 PM	#24
Dospac Retired FF Staff Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: San Jose, CA Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Actually, 8 man defense breaking the game says nothing bad about the game itself. All games played at a professional level have rules in place to prevent various game breaking situations from occuring. Things like offsides, "3 in the key", limitations on the # of players at the line of scrimmage in the NFL. All these are very similar to rules imposed by TFC leagues like max 4d/4o. Sportsmanship rules are also very common. The fact that TFC leagues haven't adopted these kinds of rules in some cases speaks against them and the level of play in the game itself. Ideally, these types of rules would exist, at least on a per map basis.

03-08-2005, 10:38 AM	#27
o_shaolin Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Playboy Mansion Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	How about setting up a number of servers for new players and giving their IP's on the website? "Head along to these servers to learn some of the more advanced skills" etc. As long as the servers were admined by people interested in helping the newer players (i.e. banning the odd muppet who goes on to humiliate newer players) and actually had some experienced guys on there willing to help, it would build the community. New players can check the FF website and see servers to go and learn the game/tricks on.

03-08-2005, 06:47 PM	#28
o_qbaler Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Boston Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	this brings to mind the ns idea of helpers. Where a few steam id's are hard coded into the game and there name appears differently. Noobs will know to look for these ppl and ask them for help. (would be hard part on FF though deciding who gets the job and it would be hard to ensure that they dont slack off tpf style and become lamers)

03-08-2005, 07:40 PM	#30
o_sobe green Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Arkansas Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Anybody having a tryout on a server without a password can not complain about people joining their server IMO. Especially in this period where servers with players isn't very common.

03-08-2005, 11:10 PM	#32
o_ghost Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	This all stems from lack of servers. Back when TFC was in its prime if there was a server with assholes like that you could just leave and go to another one. Also, there were a lot more newbies or at least people who were kinda good but didn't know everything there was to know about TFC filling up the servers.

03-09-2005, 05:17 AM	#34
Dospac Retired FF Staff Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: San Jose, CA Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	117 servers with no bots and not empty from my list currently. 404 people playing. Some are being filtered because of high ping though. edit doesn't account for the servers with bots and people playing, though.

03-09-2005, 09:19 AM	#35
o_the_truth Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	I think the best thing to do for the developers is to make the game like its new. Take all the necessary steps for a new player to comfortable adapt to the game. Maybe have a training mode where a player can go through each class and have them do certain tasks and such. I liked dospac's post on the cats and I think the FF team is doing a great job so far, but we will see when the mod actually comes out in what was it, 2007? hehe jk Also I see where you guys are coming from when you talk about teaching people in pubs. I personally intend to do my best to keep seeding new players in the game. I already told my real life friends who got me into TFC back in 99-2000. Only they quit and I kept playing. But they were siked when they heard a new Team Fortress was coming out , so there is definately a buzz creating around this game. Lets just hope it all comes together.

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