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Old 03-25-2012, 09:17 PM   #1
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Ways to improve FF?

Alright, I’m only here on ricey’s request. So let’s try and be civil, read the entire essay below before you post if we’re clear on that, let’s begin.

I was discussing with Ricey on why I don’t play pickups (this is not what this is about, it stemmed from it) and the conversation stretched to the game itself and the peeves I had. Let’s get one thing straight, things can be put into a prospective if you play it commonly be it either in pubs or pickups or otherwise.

The key to competitive gaming has and has always been to have fun and have a well-balanced game as well. People don’t like losing, I agree but that’s emotions. Restricting broken gameplay elements (I.E. the overpowered pyro) because they haven’t been fixed is just utterly annoying and it’s just a Band-Aid for the real issue. That’s one of my main peeves, you turn away some players who specialize in a particular class if you do that with pickups.

Not saying the devs, namely squeek, haven’t been trying their best with the resources at their disposal. But some of them need to be addressed like a few bugs that existed since the mod was released.

Let’s begin with class-specific bugs & suggestions, note they’re not in any way, shape, or form representative of the community. They’re coming from me, myself, and I (at least for now). That being said, some of them are actually good ideas, but they don’t ALL need to be implemented.

I can understand wanting to define FF from the rest of the pack, but you really want to keep the core of the game intact like the original dev team who made 1.0 wanted. Small changes here and there and not drastically altering it from where it was before, is the rout to go, not changing or breaking core elements of the game. With that in mind, here’s a list of suggestions I came up with myself.

1) Scout
Can’t think of anything here that doesn’t go under general.

While caltrops would be nice to have again though… you slow down the defense going after you after you’ve grabbed the flag, the issue there is that if friendly fire is on, your teammates may not seem them either, and therefor get slowed themselves and it turns into a blood bath.



2) Sniper
Most of us can agree that this class annoys all of us if you’re on offense and don’t move enough.

Tweeks:
Cut down the sniper rifle damage, I can’t tell you how irritating it is… do that, the class gets balanced. Cut it to at least 30-175 (able to one-shot anything below a medic/spy that isn’t a headshot) down from 45-273 (able to one-shot most classes that isn’t a headshot)

Your advantages with fixing it like this:
1. With this some more of the medium classes can get across the yard without dying in one shot or not being as injured as before if they manage to get across.
2. it encourages the sniper to aim more therefore less spam with the shots.

Giving the Sniper Rifle a mag limit of 5 before needing to reload the actual weapon.

Giving the AR a mag limit of 40 rounds before needing to reload.

This will balance it and prevent spamming shots at an offensive character.

Bugs:
The firing system… you need to be below a certain speed threshold to even charge your weapon. I’ve experienced this multiple times, and those who have done it as well, can vouch… you need to pay close attention while you speed snipe (or make an attempt at it). For those who’re not familiar with the term, speed sniping is a term coined in TFC (at least as far as I’m aware) where you don’t charge your weapon, pop out, and shoot a target before hiding behind cover again all while running at a high rate of speed. It’s still possible in FF but not to the degree it was in tfc due to this bug.

Possible fix: implement something similar to the bunnyhop speed cap so it comes down so that if the sniper’s above the threshold, it comes down and at the same time fixing the annoying mechanism.

Advantage: Again, makes the sniper re-evaluate his or her position and would have them make their shots count more. It also helps with sniper v sniper battles and taking them down.

3) Soldier
The controversial Laser Grenade. Not to start flame wars, but it’s worthless in an offensive situation. In defense, it’s useful, but only to some extent. But in my opinion, the Nail Gren was a more useful tool both offensively and defensively. Now while the Nail grenade in its previous state was useful, most of the players who play offense commonly are right, it needed to be tweaked.

Now examine a situation, you’ve got a defensive team, 4 players; 1 sg (and engineer), 1 hw, 1 soldier, 1 demo.
On offense you’ve got 4 players as well (as with a 4v4 pickup); 1 scout, 1 medic, one soldier, and a pyro.

With the laser grenade the soldier on offense distracts the entire enemy defense by chucking it at a particular spot with the demo, hw, and other solly. It comes out and deals damage in a radius, making it a no-go zone. But in some cases it didn’t even soften up a few players if they managed to avoid it. The soldier continues to spam, trying to knock the enemies (that he can) back into the grenade’s radius. Eventually he dies, he may get one or two or at least soften up the enemies for the pyro to take them down. In the end he didn’t really do as much as he could have if he had used a nail grenade.

On the opposing side of the spectrum, a laser grenade can only lock down a limited area, and it may not even do any damage to anything that comes at the flag it doesn’t slow them down at all you’d be lucky to use a rocket on their ass you’d need to be damn good at aiming as they were running away with your flag. Again the nail grenade is superior to the laser grenade because it has an explosion at the end that can stop an enemy in their tracks (if they don’t die to it). Now that’s not to say it needs tweaks to make it more effective & balanced.

Re-introducing the nail gren would satisfy most pub players including myself. But it would not satisfy the pickupers. So you need to find a balance. Making the damage of the nail grenades explosion as much as a engineers fully charged rail gun slug (that doesn’t ricochet) explosion as an example may be good enough, it’d be a better tool as it’d soften them up for someone to chuck a rocket or shoot them with a shotgun shell. But to be honest it’d need to be tweaked if it doesn’t work enough.

On the topic of the nails, having it shoot a complete ring constantly is going to be irritating for everyone involved. Retaining the mechanism of the Laser Grenade and firing them in an arc but not spamming them constantly like the laser grenade would be best. However, giving it stopping power as well, if you add in a small amount of push like the nail gun itself, it’d become a far more effective defensive tool (and offensive) for those players who use it, that’s where making it more like TFC instead of the original FF grenade comes in. Otherwise it’d be far more annoying to deal with if it were to be like that.

4) Demoman
No changes as far as I’m aware that need to be done.


5) Medic
The new infection mechanism is annoying to deal with. You brush by one in a pub and they hit you with it, you take 45 damage in 2 seconds direct to your health. You become severely weakened by it and makes it completely and utterly annoying to deal with and just slows down the pace of the game for the player who’s infected. In otherwords, it needs to be decreased in damage, so the players don’t get wtf owned just before the infections up. Having it do a maximum of 50 damage, 5/tick, in 10 ticks, sounds reasonable.

To offset it not doing as much damage, you need to compensate for it in some way. Now while the OLD infection system of spreading it is not good enough. But it can suit the needs to some extent.

If you implement it to prevent it from killing a player still, but allow it to spread (to a limited number of other subjects, like 5 maybe) it would be reasonable. Now what about noobs who run into the spawn? Deal with it by preventing it from spreading until 2 ticks of the last one after the player gains some health (mimicking an immune response) essentially if the player gets healed from the last tick, it will wait for two or three ticks before making a check to spread again. That and the players who get infected by running by carrying individual DO NOT spread it.

That’s probably a dumb idea, but, it’s the only one I have. It gives medics a terror tool again and it deals with the spreading problem at the same time. That and it makes it less of a “death sentence” again.

At the very least decrease the damage.

6) Heavy
No peeves or issues.

7) Pyro
About the most overpowered class in the game… fix that.

Possible rout to making it balanced:
http://www.fortress-forever.com/wiki...n:Flamethrower
Check the re-fire rate, and then check the damage. 16*(0.2*5=1 second)=80/sec. If you ask me, too high with the tier damage. The rest of the weapons are fine with the possible exception of the napalm (in some cases) cutting down the FT damage to 1/2 of what it is now while implementing the system below, may be a possible fix. If not with the tier system below, at least cut the damage by 1/2.

Dealing with the tier damage: Players have found it irritating to deal with. I think it’s fine, but some have suggested of coming up with something else. So that being said, I thought I would give an option. If cutting down the tier damage is a rout you want to go, may I suggest making a system that doesn’t rely on napalm to get a third degree burn.

If a target gets fried for a certain number of ticks they catch on fire (rather than immediately becoming set on fire) with a level 1 burn. Then if they continue to be fried for a couple or a few more ticks, it goes to level 2. Then if the player still refuses to die, then it hits level 3.

Out of all of that, that’s about all I can think of. The “jetpack” system is awesome and shouldn’t be tweaked. That’s just my opinion though.

8) Spy
No peeves, although a new grenade to replace the farts would be nice. Something to distract an enemy, like a hologram grenade, as someone suggested in the ancient past.

9) Engineer
No peeves.

10) General changes
Mario head landing: increasing the damage by some algorithm based off of the downward speed the player was going at. I dunno how hard it would be to implement, but it’d be damn cool to see something like that.

Nail gun: Give it a mag of 30 or 75 rounds. Please, for the sake of accuracy to the SNG and prevention of total spam at a SG.

Ammo dropping: I already suggested this, but give the player a new pack of cvars to drop amounts of ammunition based off of it. (when pressing the particular key bound for it) This will diminish the effectiveness of EMPs.

Kill bags: Revert for christs sake. I can't tell you how irritating it is to only get 30 cells out of a bag an enemy dropped. If they don't have any of that particular ammunition type or if it drops below a particular threshold, have the engine set it to default values. If it's above the threshold, tell it to leave them alone. Same can be said about vise-versa if you're looking to deminish defenses, have it have a cap on the amount of cells a bag has or something. The current system isn't good enough.

These changes (at least most of them) came with a great deal of thought on my part, I’d also like some input with the community as well so if you’ve got some ideas, shoot, let’s see if squeak will program them in. In all honesty, I do want some feed back, be it negative or otherwise. How would you feel about these changes if they do come into the beta then to the public?
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Old 03-26-2012, 01:53 AM   #2
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There's a lot to respond to, so for now I'll just say nailgun will have a clip next patch (your post reminded me to finish it).
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Old 03-26-2012, 02:38 AM   #3
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Just a note, on emps - while dropped bags on the ground technically explode, they do 0 damage regardless of how much ammo is in them. It's worthless for the engineer to try to dropbag+emp an enemy. The best the engi can hope for is the enemy to accidentally pick them up again, but if he has an autodrop script, it's pointless.

If you're suggesting that you should be able to drop ammunition for guns that you use (such as dropping cells as a pyro)...maybe? I think that would be incredibly confusing, and make the emp even weaker.

Maybe use the incredibly out-dated tip system to warn newbies about EMPs after they get killed by one, though?

Also - yes yes yes PLEASE revert the bag change. It's stupid and hurt engineers, since they can't build, pick up a 200 cell bag from their last death, then continue to do shit. Also, you could take the TFC route and have it so when someone dies, 1 armor is turned into 1 cell. Repair the nearly dead fatty up to 250 armor then sshotty him to get full cells. It was an interesting mechanic for those that knew about it.

And for reasons other than engi, you could eventually starve a soldier/demo defense out of ammunition, making it so they need to restock in some way.
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Old 03-26-2012, 03:13 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squeek. View Post
There's a lot to respond to, so for now I'll just say nailgun will have a clip next patch (your post reminded me to finish it).
It took me around an hour to write it. lol Sorry about the long-ass post, but needed to basically fit it into one. Read the particular section about the Nail Gren and the tweaks I think that may satisfy both sides. As for the nails going across the map, put a limitation on the distance for them?

Quote:
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Just a note, on emps - while dropped bags on the ground technically explode, they do 0 damage regardless of how much ammo is in them. It's worthless for the engineer to try to dropbag+emp an enemy. The best the engi can hope for is the enemy to accidentally pick them up again, but if he has an autodrop script, it's pointless.

If you're suggesting that you should be able to drop ammunition for guns that you use (such as dropping cells as a pyro)...maybe? I think that would be incredibly confusing, and make the emp even weaker.
-- The second paragraph is what I was referring to.

That's why it should be set to the default "throw spare ammo" and maybe something like a percentage of all ammunition that is present should the player choose.

Quote:
Maybe use the incredibly out-dated tip system to warn newbies about EMPs after they get killed by one, though?
The tip system needs an overhaul at some point...

About EMPs I'd be thrilled if the bags did damage when they exploded, but with the sheer volume of corpses in some cases some players can get wtf pwned if they don't pay attention, that being said, it'd may be best if they don't do anything with the amount of damage the bags do (if at all).

Quote:
Also - yes yes yes PLEASE revert the bag change. It's stupid and hurt engineers, since they can't build, pick up a 200 cell bag from their last death, then continue to do shit. Also, you could take the TFC route and have it so when someone dies, 1 armor is turned into 1 cell. Repair the nearly dead fatty up to 250 armor then sshotty him to get full cells. It was an interesting mechanic for those that knew about it.

And for reasons other than engi, you could eventually starve a soldier/demo defense out of ammunition, making it so they need to restock in some way.
I'm glad we agree on that note. But also considering the general change I mentioned about dropping ammo, it may be best to have the threshold I mentioned.

What I thought would be an awesome but a stupid idea would be for a ragdoll to do damage to a player after colliding with them (if possible). Mind you this may piss off some players, it's why I left it out. If it does get put in (I doubt it), after the ragdoll comes to rest the first time, don't let it collide with players anymore.
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Old 03-26-2012, 03:43 AM   #5
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Tip system has been updated, you can thank Neon for writing all the new stuff.
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Old 03-26-2012, 12:14 PM   #6
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Tip system has been updated, you can thank Neon for writing all the new stuff.
I know he did the post on it but did any of us devs act on it? If not then we need to raise a feature task with the thread referenced in the content
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Old 03-26-2012, 12:14 PM   #7
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As for the main post. Cant reply but there's a good few valid points which have been talked about before.
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Old 03-26-2012, 12:43 PM   #8
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I know he did the post on it but did any of us devs act on it? If not then we need to raise a feature task with the thread referenced in the content
It's up there now.
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Old 03-26-2012, 06:32 PM   #9
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There's a lot to respond to, so for now I'll just say nailgun will have a clip next patch (your post reminded me to finish it).
why make the peashooter nailgun less effective?
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Old 03-26-2012, 06:37 PM   #10
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What is the point in giving the nail gun a clip? Seriously? Is it really that game breaking. Are sg's across FF cowering in fear of the freaking nail gun?
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Old 03-26-2012, 08:54 PM   #11
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What is the point in giving the nail gun a clip? Seriously? Is it really that game breaking. Are sg's across FF cowering in fear of the freaking nail gun?
Reloading in general is a simple and effective way to create depth. In the case of nailguns, specifically, it adds a bit of interaction as well due to the small window created when the nailgunner is reloading.
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Old 03-26-2012, 09:42 PM   #12
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It's just the tiny nailgun...
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Old 03-26-2012, 10:00 PM   #13
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It's up there now.
Thank you for that ricey.

Quote:
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It's just the tiny nailgun...
Tiny nailgun that can spam 100 nails without stopping... the engineer's helpless with pounding on the sg till the scout or whatever stops spamming. I don't want to be stuck in a situation like that...
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Old 03-26-2012, 11:18 PM   #14
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Firstly let me say this - you have to bear in mind that we must balance for competitve and pub together. If you don't play competitively, then you aren't getting the full picture of FF's design. (the same is for competitive players who dont play pub).

Medkit used to be infinite damage. The damage it has now is much weaker than it was.

Crowbar is 30 damage, knife is 50. This damage not only can't kill you, but you automatically regenerate it back anyway. It obviously has to be higher to compensate. Bear in mind that a close range shotgun blast is 54 damage so its almost not worth using as it is. Plus with a medkit you have to switch weapon if you want to switch target. This isnt true of shotty or nailgun. I'm pretty sure you'd get more DPS using shotgun or nailgun and you can use them from any range. Maybe the argument is that "people who can't aim can do more damage with a medkit than they can with a shotgun". Well that seems fine to me. Players must judge their ability level (and their opponents dodge ability) and choose a weapon accordingly.. sounds a lot like depth!

HOWEVER. Some people do feel it's less fair getting a DOT. Those people have real problems with the pyro fire for the same reason. It's a shame because it's an interesting mechanic (different to all the direct damage stuff) and adds different playstyles to the game.

Engineer bags... anyone playing seriously won't drop any metal at all in their death bag pre-patch (and enemies will deliberately gather bags in your flag room anyway) and so for competitive gaming the metal was actually an increase on average. If you played with noobs who always dropped hundreds of metal because they don't know where their discard button is, well yes life was very easy as engineer, but it wasn't balanced. You get one noob on your team who doesnt discard, and hooray he's giving the enemy engineer lots of metal every run. Flame wars commence. Forcing everyone to discard all the time is not a good mechanic either. (people actually bound "discard" to their run button. Is it good design to encourage that?)

Also basing the engineer metal intake based on how many people die near him is a really bad idea. Also bags that have more than 50 metal in, and your teammates pick them up to "help you"... bad. SO much fail with the old system. We're testing much better methods of regulating the engineer metal flow over time in beta. HOWEVER. That said we could potentially raise the drop amount in bags slightly if the new changes don't come through next patch...

The reason pyros aren't used in pickups is because they are bad, not because they are OP. If you play pyro you're preventing your team from winning. HOWEVER i did suggest nerfing them slightly since they are only used in pub play therefore we may as well balance them solely for pub play until we revamp them properly for use in competitive play. This hasn't really been looked at properly though. Pyro does tend to suffer from the problem of "If you are super good at pyro, it will feel OP to your enemies". I'm unsure thats really a problem with general power. (there are other options such as reducing the flamethrower ammo count, currently you can fire it for ages (spamming). Making the pyro choose when to use it might be interesting)

Spy has some awesome stuff in beta which includes a new secondary.

Caltrops aren't coming back. Bored of trying to explain why they are really bad for the game. Scout will be getting much more fun stuff.

Head stomp already does do more damage the faster you are travelling..

Nailgun will be getting a clip as squeek said

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Old 03-26-2012, 11:30 PM   #15
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Cool beans!

Any idea of when some of this will be launching out of the beta phase and to the general public?
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Old 03-27-2012, 01:07 AM   #16
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Thank you for that ricey.



Tiny nailgun that can spam 100 nails without stopping... the engineer's helpless with pounding on the sg till the scout or whatever stops spamming. I don't want to be stuck in a situation like that...
Your sentry isn't going to last for ever and shouldn't be that way. Also spamming your wrench shouldn't be your only means of protecting it.

Chase that willy scout down. Pull out your shot gun, position yourself between some of the nails and your gun, body block and shoot.

There just comes a time where your sentry is going to explode, wether it's because you were out played or ran out of metal to repair it. You just gotta accept that and build a new one.
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Old 03-27-2012, 03:36 AM   #17
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Caltrops aren't coming back. Bored of trying to explain why they are really bad for the game. Scout will be getting much more fun stuff.
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Old 03-27-2012, 03:49 AM   #18
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Your sentry isn't going to last for ever and shouldn't be that way. Also spamming your wrench shouldn't be your only means of protecting it.

Chase that willy scout down. Pull out your shot gun, position yourself between some of the nails and your gun, body block and shoot.

There just comes a time where your sentry is going to explode, wether it's because you were out played or ran out of metal to repair it. You just gotta accept that and build a new one.
ON POINT BABY. plus a scout shooting at an sg for 10 seconds is a good thing for D, hes wasting his time. thats 10 seconds hes not capping the flag. odds are that sg will be back up his next run anyways.
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Old 03-27-2012, 04:19 AM   #19
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Okay, let's try this method of inquiry.

Rather than focus on what to change, could you tell me why

SCOUT
DEMOMAN
HWGUY
SPY
ENGINEER

should not be altered?

Last edited by XPelargos; 03-27-2012 at 09:19 PM.
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Old 03-28-2012, 12:48 PM   #20
Chickenprotector
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Join Date: Sep 2009
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Class/Position: Pyro (O)
Gametype: Capture the Flag
Posts Rated Helpful 6 Times
Let me say this is not directed in general, not trying to start a flame war, this is just what I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AfterShock View Post
Medkit used to be infinite damage. The damage it has now is much weaker than it was.

Crowbar is 30 damage, knife is 50. This damage not only can't kill you, but you automatically regenerate it back anyway. It obviously has to be higher to compensate. Bear in mind that a close range shotgun blast is 54 damage so its almost not worth using as it is. Plus with a medkit you have to switch weapon if you want to switch target. This isnt true of shotty or nailgun. I'm pretty sure you'd get more DPS using shotgun or nailgun and you can use them from any range. Maybe the argument is that "people who can't aim can do more damage with a medkit than they can with a shotgun". Well that seems fine to me. Players must judge their ability level (and their opponents dodge ability) and choose a weapon accordingly.. sounds a lot like depth!
You're not taking into account that it's a TEAM who's on defense, if I brush by an opponent I don't want to take 45 damage in 2 seconds DIRECT to my health skipping over the armor. What if a Soldier runs into me while I'm trying to get this thing to ware off? It's going to do at least 40 damage to a pyro at full armor. That's going to take at least 1 rocket and a shotgun blast to kill me off if that. The fact of the matter is, it's too high. If it wasn't direct to health, it'd be fine. But it's directly to your health. I'm not saying cut down the medkit damage itself, but cut down the infection damage.

If I were infected (rarely) in the current state that it's in I would need to wait for it to ware off before I can go for the flag or risk getting 1-shot by a soldier.

Quote:
HOWEVER. Some people do feel it's less fair getting a DOT. Those people have real problems with the pyro fire for the same reason. It's a shame because it's an interesting mechanic (different to all the direct damage stuff) and adds different playstyles to the game.
You need to stack up the fire damage to get that much. The pyro's always been a "fire and forget" kind've fragger. I use it to get the flag and clear a path for my team. I can agree that you need to revamp it somewhat in order to make sure your own team doesn't get set on fire... fact of the matter is, the changes I'm suggesting are keeping the CORE of the game intact, while at the same time trying to balance it out.

Quote:
Engineer bags... anyone playing seriously won't drop any metal at all in their death bag pre-patch (and enemies will deliberately gather bags in your flag room anyway) and so for competitive gaming the metal was actually an increase on average. If you played with noobs who always dropped hundreds of metal because they don't know where their discard button is, well yes life was very easy as engineer, but it wasn't balanced. You get one noob on your team who doesnt discard, and hooray he's giving the enemy engineer lots of metal every run. Flame wars commence. Forcing everyone to discard all the time is not a good mechanic either. (people actually bound "discard" to their run button. Is it good design to encourage that?)
Why do you think I suggested a threshold for minimum or maximum. Having death bags have more than 30 metal would add back in the depth it was previously. The ONLY thing other than an engineer that carries 200 cells is a pyro. And most players in pick up will drop their 50 cells before going into the enemy base.

Quote:
Also basing the engineer metal intake based on how many people die near him is a really bad idea. Also bags that have more than 50 metal in, and your teammates pick them up to "help you"... bad. SO much fail with the old system. We're testing much better methods of regulating the engineer metal flow over time in beta. HOWEVER. That said we could potentially raise the drop amount in bags slightly if the new changes don't come through next patch...
Don't revert it back to the old system. That was a major fail in on itself. I'm saying come up with a hybrid system so that players CAN get more cells out of it, and if the enemies don't have cells on them, it plants 30 into the bag.

If you really want to go indepth, it'd take come coding, but if it's unique to each individual class for thresholds, it'd add more depth and planning.

Quote:
The reason pyros aren't used in pickups is because they are bad, not because they are OP. If you play pyro you're preventing your team from winning.
I'm intrigued. Tell me, how're they bad other than doing too much damage. Over all it's got enough fire power and speed for me to go in, cause chaos among the enemy, and distract them long enough for my team to grab the flag and haul ass out of there before I die if everything's properly executed.

I can see with Friendly Fire on them being a constant annoyance but players also need to learn to keep their distance (even teammates) while it's going on, usually in a firefight is to keep your cool, move to the objective while a few of your own offense breaks off to distract the enemy. In otherwords: scout looks at firefight "hmm I should avoid that" he thinks to himself. He grabs the flag and no one is none the wiser.

You'd be surprised on how well a pyro does in the right hands on offense, not defense. Defense it's okay, but it's primarily an offensive class.

On a further note, I don't play pickups because I don't like how they're played. If it wasn't OvD only (for either side) on CTF, I'd be happy to play them, as a matter of fact, I would LOVE to play a few and show off how good I am. Combine that with restricting gameplay elements (i.e. pyro) I just don't feel the need.

Pub play is usually far more intense if you get an organized game going, a few going on offense a few on defense. It makes things far more competitive because you need to keep up with the enemy team, and it shows you what holes you have in your own team and allows for more in-depth playing.

That is what I enjoy, not playing a one-sided game. It's far more intense and far more satisfying at the end of the game.

Quote:
HOWEVER i did suggest nerfing them slightly since they are only used in pub play therefore we may as well balance them solely for pub play until we revamp them properly for use in competitive play. This hasn't really been looked at properly though. Pyro does tend to suffer from the problem of "If you are super good at pyro, it will feel OP to your enemies". I'm unsure thats really a problem with general power. (there are other options such as reducing the flamethrower ammo count, currently you can fire it for ages (spamming). Making the pyro choose when to use it might be interesting)
There are other options, but it still doesn't take the fact that it does 80/second. Combine that with the tier damage in its current state, you've got a recipe for disaster. You'll be doing something like 100-175/second with level 3 tier damage. Did THAT occur to you?

With the jet-pack system, you'll be using AT LEAST 20 cells down to speed yourself up, and get to a particular area. If you limit the ammunition stream, take that into account. A clip size of maybe 75 or so before needing to reload should be ample.
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Last edited by Chickenprotector; 03-28-2012 at 12:50 PM.
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