Merged: Disappointed TF2 and TF2 Impressions

[summit]

Originally Posted by SME

Do you mind if we throw blanket "opinions" around? That all they are.

Usually people don't try to palm opinions off as fact

[GhOsT]

Originally Posted by summit

If I was an FF dev, the most annoying thing to me wouldn't be anything pertaining directly to TF2 - it would be FF fanboys pushing away potential gamers wanting to try it out.

Well said. Unfortunately the stigma on these forums is that TF2 is more simplistic and for newbs while FF requires more skill. Also, I've seen many posts to the effect of "if you like TF2 so much then why the fuck are you here?" That right there is a great way to get people who enjoy TF2 in the FF community...

[SME]

Originally Posted by summit

Usually people don't try to palm opinions off as fact

Actually, it's quite common. You just tried to palm your opinion (that usually people don't try to palm opinions off as fact) off as fact.

[Sureshot]

I don't quite get the whole 'TF2 is now much more team orientated' statement, which so many seem to be banding around. Ok, so perhaps the removal of concs and so on has kept people on the ground a little more and working together in that sense (more of a unit), but where are these greater elements of teamwork exactly?

Class-wise, the only thing I can think of is the medic's ubercharge and the fact that healing is more accessible. The engineer has actually been given less teamworking opportunity with the removal of armour. All they have to deal with now is dispensers, SGs and teleporters. The rest of the classes are pretty similar to FF and older TF games, so there's no more or less teamwork involved there. The removal of grenades has neither increased nor decreased teamworking opportunities (apart from the 'keeping people on the ground' part).

With regard to maps, 2fort plays exactly the same, control point maps have already been in TFC and although Hydro's system is inventive, it still plays similar to a control-point system anyway. Again, not a huge difference here.

Clan matches - if they take off at all, I really don't see how these are going to be any different strategically to a TFC match, apart from it will be medics and HWGuys ahoy on defence, with an SG to do the rest, and perhaps a demo in place of one of the HWs to change things up a bit.

Extra incentives - well, medic obviously has the ability to fill his ubercharge as an incentive to heal. Are there any others?

The bottom line is that, from my experience, there is no more class interaction and co-operation than there was in any past TF game.

By the way, I am actually interested to hear an answer on this, I'm not just having a go. Am I being completely oblivious to something? Just what does 'more team-based' mean when people say it?

[hf_]

Engineer has just as much if not more teamworking opportunity. His dispensers heal you if you are next to them (much more effectively than TFC). I never sat in front of a dispenser to get health in TFC, but I do it a lot in TF2. Because of this, there isn't a need for the wrench to give back armor/health.

Because TF2 is mostly CP maps, it forces people to work together. TFC CTF pubbing has degenerated into everyone playing defense inside of their base. Even TFC A/D pubbing has its problems with tons of spam.

I think that TF2 is the best team-oriented game because valve defined the positions for each class. Scout, soldier, and pyro are offense, etc. Classes have their own role to play in each map, and you'll see people switching classes to fill those rolls. No longer is soldier the dominant class. You see a great variety of all the classes in action.

[summit]

Originally Posted by SME

Actually, it's quite common. You just tried to palm your opinion (that usually people don't try to palm opinions off as fact) off as fact.

It's usually those with least to argue who go hunting for words to play on. My point doesn't need to be restated, it's more than evident in this thread (along with many others)

(and that wasn't my opinion - just common sense. Bit of lateral thinking never hurt anyone)

[caesium]

Me too, Sureshot. Imo TF2 has less actualy teamplay potential than FF, but because individual player class skills have been so dumbed down, teamplay is now the dominating factor remaining. What all this means imo is that TF2 is great for ppl who are more into basic strategy side of things, rather than fast thinking and individual players using their personal skills while at the same time figuring out how to work as a team in a constantly evolving manner (as is the case in FF).

Btw I wish ppl would stop the "TF2 v FF" bs, and welcome any ppl who find there way here after player TF2 please. TF2 should do a great job of getting new players interested in TF in general, and no doubt will satisfy a fair few players on its own. It's very different FF, and my hope is that ppl will move onto FF if they like TF2 but want something much faster, much deeper, and with much more potential for personal flare.

I am, and will continue, to give TF2 every chance to win me over as a serious clan game (it hasn't yet by a very very long way, but I really hope it does), but for me it's not even in competition with FF. Play both/either/neither and stfu and be happy we've finally got 2 great new TF games!

[SME]

Originally Posted by summit

(and that wasn't my opinion - just common sense. Bit of lateral thinking never hurt anyone)

There goes another opinion.

[Sureshot]

Originally Posted by hf_

Because TF2 is mostly CP maps, it forces people to work together. TFC CTF pubbing has degenerated into everyone playing defense inside of their base. Even TFC A/D pubbing has its problems with tons of spam.

People worked together as much on CP maps in TFC, and there were quite a few of them. CTF maps play exactly the same on the evidence of 2fort, and perhaps even worse due to the reduction in pace. Ok, so you can't spam quite as much due to the removal of grenades, but then you have the invincible HWs and demos with 8 ready pipes instead of 6 to contend with, amongst other things.

[Sureshot]

Originally Posted by caesium

Me too, Sureshot. Imo TF2 has less actualy teamplay potential than FF, but because individual player class skills have been so dumbed down, teamplay is now the dominating factor remaining. What all this means imo is that TF2 is great for ppl who are more into basic strategy side of things, rather than fast thinking and individual players using their personal skills while at the same time figuring out how to work as a team in a constantly evolving manner (as is the case in FF).

Indeed, and this gamestyle has already been done to death in other games.

[caesium]

Oh, and the other thing I wish is that ex TFC ppl would try FF as if it were a new game (approach it as you would TF2). Play all the game types and just try out all the classes in different situations and I tihnk you might be very surprised how good it is (I have sooo much fun playing the a/d maps in FF with every class, but lots of ex TFCer's simply refuse to even play them, especially in pickups...). I don't understand why ppl are prepared to give all the different gameplay types a go in TF2, but refuse to vary at all from their CTF comfort zone in FF... homo fags

[barronofhellion]

actually thats what i did when i 1st tried it out, i tried i think sniper as my 1st class.. and then pyro,,, the 2 classes i never ever plaied in tfc , and well i think they are great ....now

[groovyf]

TF2 Respawn Timer poll (courtesy of me)
http://snappoll.com/poll/220285.php

[Sabre]

TF2 is gorgeous looking and a hell of a lot of fun to play in small doses, personally i don't think it has the speed or depth i like in FPS shooters to keep me interested for too long or play it in clans/leagues. Valve have identified that most steam users are youngsters and they have done a fantastic job of targetting this market by creating an extremely simple but fun game similar to console games. Will TF2 be massive? yes, without a doubt, say what you want cartoony graphics do help to attract the younguns and anyone who plays the game will have learned most aspects of it within a days play meaning they will attract and retain new players extremely easily $$. However, i don't feel TF2 has the depth to please a more demanding gamer who want's a little bit more than what you find in an average console game, there's no escaping that this game is a console game on a PC. Much like consoles i will play TF2 for a bit of a laugh here and there, for serious gaming i will more than likely play ETQW and FF as they provide me with the depth and speed i need in FPS games.

p.s. and for the love of god do not compare steam statistics for an offical valve release and a 3rd party mod if you didn't expect TF2 to appeal to the masses and be huge you're either extremely naive or thick.

The removal of grenades has neither increased nor decreased teamworking opportunities (apart from the 'keeping people on the ground' part).

That isn't true at all. If you listen to the TF2 commentary giving their reasoning for the changes they explain that grenades made a lot of the classes too similar. Every class could easily take out a sentry gun in TFC because of grenades. In TF2 only 2 classes can easily take out a sentry gun. These classes are soldier and the spy (demoman can do it easily in some situations). This means you can't have 4 medic offenses, which for the most part means you need some more coordination. In TFC 4 good medics could run around not even talking to each other and win matches... because of their speed/concs communication was hardly even needed.

Now I'm not saying that a 4 medic offense isn't fun as hell... but I'm just telling you why grenades are a bad thing for team oriented gaming.

[GhOsT]

Originally Posted by caesium

Oh, and the other thing I wish is that ex TFC ppl would try FF as if it were a new game (approach it as you would TF2). Play all the game types and just try out all the classes in different situations and I tihnk you might be very surprised how good it is (I have sooo much fun playing the a/d maps in FF with every class, but lots of ex TFCer's simply refuse to even play them, especially in pickups...).

Unfortunately there really isn't any getting around that. There are a lot of people coming into FF from a long history of TFC. I agree with you but sadly I don't see things improving in this area. This whole thread is a testament to people unwilling to accept change.

Originally Posted by caesium

I don't understand why ppl are prepared to give all the different gameplay types a go in TF2, but refuse to vary at all from their CTF comfort zone in FF... homo fags

Easy. A lot of people playing and enjoying TF2 right now probably do not come from a hardcore TF/TFC background. They don't have any preconceived notions on how things "should be." As I said about, I would say a good amount of people playing FF now are coming from a TFC background where CTF was the dominant type. In turn, people are going to be reluctant to try other things and complain when things aren't close enough to what they were.

[barronofhellion]

Originally Posted by GhOsT

people playing FF now are coming from a TFC background where CTF was the dominant type

i come from a tf and tfc background , and ill play all the game modes. in fact the more game modes the better it lightens up playing maps of all the same type over and over again, but its bad when you join a server and its like take this and do what ?!?! but thats all about learning

[summit]

Originally Posted by SME

There goes another opinion.

Haha I do hope you're kidding... scary thought if you're not

I'm intrigued by what makes people come to the conclusion things have been "dumbed" down - or is that just a poor way of saying it's different?

[barronofhellion]

Originally Posted by summit

Haha I do hope you're kidding... scary thought if you're not

I'm intrigued by what makes people come to the conclusion things have been "dumbed" down - or is that just a poor way of saying it's different?

simple answer tf2 has less things then tf/tfc there last version of a tf mod.. there are less things you can do

[Thief]

TF2 is "OK"