The Mapper's Dilemma

[Doughnut-4|4-]

Mapping for me is like a collapsing star... it can either go supernova or it can turn into a black hole from which nothing escapes not even light or time... but one thing is for sure, no one but a mapper understands the process. So I thought I'd share.

For the average person learning to create maps for any game involves learning the trades of several full time jobs with the aid of the internet. Most jobs require you to learn through supervised training but not here!

You'll be required to learn 3d design both within a world edit program and within a modeling program. Keep in mind the two are completely different. It's like comparing an ipod touch with a reel to reel. I know not how to operate either.

Next you'll need to become an expert in texture design and creation... not too hard if you know Photoshop. But most of us forget Photoshop is the industry standard, and I doubt the half the people at my work could figure out this program. Oh ya, did I mention you'll have to do all this outside your real life?

Next you'll need to learn a little code with LUA files. It's best if you don't make any complicated maps cause there really is no manual on these things. It's best compared with calculus where they give you one example in the book and ask you to solve a hundred “similar” examples.

Did I mention you'll have to learn how to optimize your maps? You can't just build anything you want. You basically have to learn how the 3d engine in-line with the current 3d cards process your environment. The concept’s simple but learning to do it by reading how someone else is doing it… not so simple.

You'll also have to create a compile tool unique to your PC for when you want to warp your creation into the actual game. Oh there are tutorials for all this stuff which seem straight forward but keep in mind every PC is different and one typo will cause mayhem. My PC for example rejected the compile tools. I had to use a 2nd PC to run them. I never found anyone with this similar problem.

So where was I? Texture Artist, Modeler, Map Design... let's not forget sound editing. Sound is pretty fun to toy with but you'll need to find more resources online and learn to use a few more programs. And beta testing... I almost forgot. After you do all the above you'll be lucky to get some testers for your map.

After all your work you'll be lucky if you just get a few people to recognize your work by showing up to a beta test. And this is the mapper's dilemma... to create for no gain - fore no amount of money will quench the amount of work I just listed - only the hope someone might someday appreciate you work.

As a mapper I've met resistance as I can only imagine most mappers have. But in our cold lonely world where we slave alone at late hours, creativity sometimes turns into something special. One map I made, I poured all my experience and heart into and got nothing in return... I had hoped it would make servers and leagues and bring joy to orphanages around the world. It made me sad. Another map I made actually did make league play, but I didn't realize it until someone brought it to my attention. It wasn't popular in pubs and it wasn’t my favorite creation, but hey someone liked it. The bastards could have told me they were picking my map!

I say all of this in a rant. I'm no longer bitter about the world of mapping... well maybe a little. But more importantly it's a creative wonderland. I do feel the mapping community is under appreciated as I'm sure the modding community and the league staff is also. I think we could turn out more maps for these various mods if the texture artists and sound designers and modellers all worked together on a map. That'll never happen though simply because if you want to create a fun map, no one wants to do your dirty work and thus we have the mapper's dilemma. Learn all the tools of the trade to make your world or don't.

On a final note I’m just here to applaud the FF Team for all their work in this mod from mapping to coding to anything else. In some small way I understand your plight in life. No one’s paying you… I’m certainly not… you're over-worked and under-appreciated. And I’m sure you put in late hours cause the products better than most on the market. GJ Work-A-Holics!

[Dr.Satan]

That earnestly brought a tear to my eye...so true Doughnut...so true.

[Tsukasa]

Mapping doesn't take *that* long if you prioritize correctly and have a nice mug of coffee next to you.

My first map took around 300 hours (1 small level), this one is looking to only be about 100 per part (four parts). AvD maps are long @_@.

[Ginger Lord]

Making maps is easy.

Getting the gameplay and optimisation is where it gets frustrating. Then the bug fixing....

[Tsukasa]

Originally Posted by Ginger Lord

Making maps is easy.

Getting the gameplay and optimisation is where it gets frustrating. Then the bug fixing....

rofl, yeah, i got tired of leaking so until the map is 99% complete i put this giant hollowed skybox around everything.

[Sh4x]

yep... nice rant, so true.

[squeek.]

Very true. I put a whole bunch of work into Pitfall, but now it's getting thrown on the scrap heap because the yard gives an FPS hit.

It's especially difficult to create a map for the source engine. People want it to look amazing. But they also want amazing FPS. That, plus the wide range of different players' CPUs. What gives good FPS for some will always give drastically less to others.

[Tsukasa]

Originally Posted by squeek.

Very true. I put a whole bunch of work into Pitfall, but now it's getting thrown on the scrap heap because the yard gives an FPS hit.

It's especially difficult to create a map for the source engine. People want it to look amazing. But they also want amazing FPS. That, plus the wide range of different players' CPUs. What gives good FPS for some will always give drastically less to others.

Squeek have you tried forcing cheap water? It may look ugly but it'l reduce frames much.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by Tsukasa

Squeek have you tried forcing cheap water? It may look ugly but it'l reduce frames much.

I think it's the world geometry that is giving the hit, not the water. So much has to be drawn because the front of the base is so open. I'd have to look at the +showbudget some more and figure out a way to optimize it better, but that'll come in time.

[Tsukasa]

Originally Posted by squeek.

I think it's the world geometry that is giving the hit, not the water. So much has to be drawn because the front of the base is so open. I'd have to look at the +showbudget some more and figure out a way to optimize it better, but that'll come in time.

Well, don't underestimate the water. Also you might want to do some hint brushes in that little area past the water where it goes down, slanted on the y axis for a super minor fps boost. Might want to also consider doing hard fog at distance=back of the sniper deck to back of the enemys sniper deck, otherwise your also drawing part of the spawn and area behind it. Also a hint brush could be used on the lower level, slanted on the z axis.

I hope you func_detailed the stairs and cylinders, too =P

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by Tsukasa

Well, don't underestimate the water. Also you might want to do some hint brushes in that little area past the water where it goes down, slanted on the y axis for a super minor fps boost. Might want to also consider doing hard fog at distance=back of the sniper deck to back of the enemys sniper deck, otherwise your also drawing part of the spawn and area behind it. Also a hint brush could be used on the lower level, slanted on the z axis.

I hope you func_detailed the stairs and cylinders, too =P

Well, if the water is the problem, then I'll leave it up to the player to make it cheap for themselves. I am so close to brush limits though that I didn't bother with hints for minor fps boosts. The fog I haven't tried. If I remember right, the pit and flagroom aren't drawn from the yard. If they are, then that only cropped up in the final compile and that would suck major.

And, yeah. I func_detailed everything that could be func_detailed. The vis looks pretty good in glview. Lemme check out the +showbudget real quick though. I'm suddenly interested again.

EDIT: http://www.502development.com/temp/f...itfall0000.jpg

Yeah, I'd say it's the world geometry/displacements. Nothing extra is being drawn as well. I used a lot of complex geometry, and now I'm paying the price.

[Lt Llama]

The players dilemma is that with the current speed of map development for FF we will have 5 more maps to play in God's year 2025. Wtf is wrong with you mappers? If you want to make art, then go study art and make a painting. A game map is not a tool for introspection, meditation, philosophing or emotional OMG-ing. It is for entertainment purposes and having fun. Aiming for more and more realism in maps is just getting deeper into the dead end of something that never can be realistic. If you want youre maps to be played, learn from the killbox map for hl2dm.

But whats the reason this agony is here in the first place, is it "we can't save FF if we don't make super maps"?. Every flower needs decay and manure as nutrition, so I say, a shit load of crap maps now maybe wouldnt be all that bad for FF. A good way to make good maps is to have a lot of bad examples to learn from .

But I don't like this development. Making maps was something that anyone could do before. Now you have to be a multi artistic wizz kid who is willing to throw away years of his life trying to impress an audience that only care for one thing, to have 30 minutes of fun and then rockthevote.

Are the days forever gone when a 12 year old guy could slap a map together in 30 minutes and not get nuked by the mapping community?

[Ihmhi]

Originally Posted by Lt Llama

Are the days forever gone when a 12 year old guy could slap a map together in 30 minutes and not get nuked by the mapping community?

Yes, and thank the Fortress Gods for that.

[Tsukasa]

Originally Posted by squeek.

Well, if the water is the problem, then I'll leave it up to the player to make it cheap for themselves. I am so close to brush limits though that I didn't bother with hints for minor fps boosts. The fog I haven't tried. If I remember right, the pit and flagroom aren't drawn from the yard. If they are, then that only cropped up in the final compile and that would suck major.

And, yeah. I func_detailed everything that could be func_detailed. The vis looks pretty good in glview. Lemme check out the +showbudget real quick though. I'm suddenly interested again.

EDIT: http://www.502development.com/temp/f...itfall0000.jpg

Yeah, I'd say it's the world geometry/displacements. Nothing extra is being drawn as well. I used a lot of complex geometry, and now I'm paying the price.

Yep...

If it's any consolation, i get 60fps solid on your map =P

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by Tsukasa

Yep...

If it's any consolation, i get 60fps solid on your map =P

Yeah, my FPS everywhere but the yard is solid. And the yard I just conc over, so it doesn't affect me much at all.

I am really happy with how it turned out and really don't want to compromise the quality of it, so I guess I'll just have to hope it gets played once the older computers are phased out. Most people get good, solid FPS on it but it's the few with older computers that literally can not play it so it ruins it for everyone else.

[Tsukasa]

Originally Posted by squeek.

Yeah, my FPS everywhere but the yard is solid. And the yard I just conc over, so it doesn't affect me much at all.

I am really happy with how it turned out and really don't want to compromise the quality of it, so I guess I'll just have to hope it gets played once the older computers are phased out. Most people get good, solid FPS on it but it's the few with older computers that literally can not play it so it ruins it for everyone else.

Well I don't know about 'ruin', personally I find it hilarious when a soldier is frozen in the air mid jump due to fps lag. Easy pickens'

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by Tsukasa

Well I don't know about 'ruin', personally I find it hilarious when a soldier is frozen in the air mid jump due to fps lag. Easy pickens'

Yeah, I was talking about pickup/league games. The map gets ignored because a few players can't play on it. A couple other maps have fallen for the same reasons. I've kinda gotten out of touch with the pub scene after making #ff.pickup, so I don't know how often it gets played in pubs.

[shadow]

i would also check into those particle effects you're using. there seem to be a whole shitload of particles in there, and its possible to stand in places where SIX are rendering at a time.

im not too sure why you didn't use hint brushes in various places either, it looks like the pyramid method would work...

[Dr.Satan]

Originally Posted by squeek.

Yeah, I was talking about pickup/league games. The map gets ignored because a few players can't play on it. A couple other maps have fallen for the same reasons. I've kinda gotten out of touch with the pub scene after making #ff.pickup, so I don't know how often it gets played in pubs.

Man trust me...if I were running a 7v league instead of a 5v league, I would have pitfall in there. I love your map, but for a 5v it's just too big. I think that's also probably part of why it's not in the pickups a lot is b/c it's just a big map made for at least a 7v. The fps thing is an issue, but TBH most people have the computers to handle it, and I wouldn't compromise the map for a small portion of the community.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by Dr.Satan

Man trust me...if I were running a 7v league instead of a 5v league, I would have pitfall in there. I love your map, but for a 5v it's just too big. I think that's also probably part of why it's not in the pickups a lot is b/c it's just a big map made for at least a 7v. The fps thing is an issue, but TBH most people have the computers to handle it, and I wouldn't compromise the map for a small portion of the community.

Yeah, it's understandable. Hopefully it'll see some playtime once 2.0 hits and pickups are capable of reaching 4v's every time or 7v's and higher occasionally. Everytime it's suggested in the pickup channel/a server someone always says "No, I can't play that map because of the FPS issues" and the very idea of playing it gets rejected instantly because every player matters in such a small community.

As for the particle effects, I'm not sure they give much of an FPS hit. Perhaps all these little things may add up though. I didn't use hints because I am ~10 brushes under the limit. Plus, when I tried I couldn't get any significant FPS boosts or more efficient world drawing from it. I probably have to experiment with it more though.