TF2, FF, Speed, and Marketing

[SkynYrd]

Originally Posted by GhOsT

Depth in a game can be more than just exploiting the physics of the game.

Ugh please stop using that terminology.

[Desyphur]

Originally Posted by exoskeletaL

yes, strangest thing, i restarted my computer and bam, my esc , tab, tilde, 1, q, a, and c keys are back! cool

Yet your shift key doesn't work.

*grimace*

[Norris]

I've got an invite for two people to playtest OrangeBox TF2 Behind Closed Doors on next months GC. Exciting. Looks like EA is looking through the TFC scene and sent a few mails out there.

[GhOsT]

Originally Posted by SkynYrd

Ugh please stop using that terminology.

Fine, call it conc jumping and bunnyhopping if that makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside. I'm not trying to say these are bad things as they did add to TFC's fun and popularity. You are still using aspects of the game, in this case the push effect of the conc and air acceleration for bhop, to do stuff that was not originally designed into the game.

Those are examples of exploits the community accepts since it enhances gameplay. The community shuns the nail grenade exploit since it detracts from gameplay. Course, it really is an effective way to do a ton of damage.

[mistermojo]

one problem I have with TF2 is that it seems Valve is underestimating the players. I know they want to sell to the consoles, but even Halo and Gears of War are much more "hardcore" and they still shitloads. They don't need to remove all grenades, make it an easy goal, add weird noobie things (criticla damage, congratulating people for doing better, heal ray), it just makes the game shallow and even the console players aren't gonna play it for long

[Etzell]

Originally Posted by GhOsT

Those are examples of exploits the community accepts since it enhances gameplay. The community shuns the nail grenade exploit since it detracts from gameplay. Course, it really is an effective way to do a ton of damage.

The nail exploit is more fun when you do it with a MIRV.

[arsenal]

Originally Posted by GhOsT

I wasn't aware people actually played HL2DM competitively.

Yes, they do.

Originally Posted by GhOsT

The thing with HL2DM is that there isn't really a goal or much teamwork.

It's a deathmatch game, why should there be any teamwork involved. It has nothing to do with how deep or interesting the gameplay is. Quake 3 is an example of a dm game with depth that is played competitively and extensively by "professional" gamers.

Originally Posted by GhOsT

Depth in a game can be more than just exploiting the physics of the game.

What's this got to do with anything? Irrelevant.

[AmazingNurseEnrique]

Originally Posted by mistermojo

one problem I have with TF2 is that it seems Valve is underestimating the players. I know they want to sell to the consoles, but even Halo and Gears of War are much more "hardcore" and they still shitloads. They don't need to remove all grenades, make it an easy goal, add weird noobie things (criticla damage, congratulating people for doing better, heal ray), it just makes the game shallow and even the console players aren't gonna play it for long

If Halo's "hardcore," then I quit at video games =/

I don't understand the correlation between "accessible" and "shallow." Showing people what's going on, providing good UI and good feedback is a strong learning tool, if you don't need it, then it doesn't effect you. The goal of TF2 (from the horse's mouth) is to provide a game that works on both pub and competitive levels...to do that, you need 2 things:

1) Strong learning tools and easy to pick up play;

2) Gameplay that is hard to master and rewards skilled players with improved performance.

These two things are not mutually exclusive. Removing grenades is a design decision, as we've mentioned to death, it makes the game not a movement game and more a team combat game. Not everyone's interested in that, sure, but it irks me when people assume "the way TFC is played right now is the only way a game can ever, ever require skill, and anyone that likes other games is a noobhat." (Not saying you're saying this, but it's a general tone among some of the top 5% of TFC players).

/end rant

[nex nicholai]

I get the dumbing down feeling from TF2, but its not just because of the grenades. It more comes from the lack of concs, air control (the scout's djump doesnt excite me), and the other various movement skills.

You said it yourself, TF2 is less of a movement game. For me, having some HW's walk across the bridge with medics healing them is a step down in gameplay. And that is the strategy that valve has advertised the most.

I guess my point is that if it wasnt for the depth and range of movement skills in TFC, I would have switched to BF/CS/BS a long time ago. Simple combat wont keep me in a game for 8+ years.

[BobTheChainsaw]

Funny how AmazingNurseEnrique is the only one who's actually played TF2, and he says it's good yet everyone else who hasn't yet still continues to bash it.

[Iggy]

Perhapse it's not "bashing", but more like complaining that key elements of the original game have been removed to favor console players and newbies.

Actually, that's not entirely accurate, either. We were all newbies at one time...we saw, we questioned, we learned.

I think that a lot of people see the changes(graphics notwithstanding) as a detriment. It's no longer Team Fortress, it's a cartoony Counter-Strike.

Valve can make whatever changes they want...it IS their game. I do think they should have changed the title, though. Most TFC players are wanting an updated game, with flashy graphics, but similar gameplay. Those that didn't, moved on to CS and DoD.

[Mrbbad]

Originally Posted by Iggy

I think that a lot of people see the changes(graphics notwithstanding) as a detriment. It's no longer Team Fortress, it's a cartoony Counter-Strike.

Nuff' said, I didn't wait 10 years for a cartoon.

[reaper18]

I agree at them changing the title.
By the looks of it, and my assessment from this, it looks like its based on humor and animiation, not to mention less gameplay factors of the original TFC to compensate for the console players. I wouldn't say though, that they're lessing it a bit to help out the noobs.
as iggy said :
"Actually, that's not entirely accurate, either. We were all newbies at one time...we saw, we questioned, we learned."

These two things are not mutually exclusive. Removing grenades is a design decision, as we've mentioned to death, it makes the game not a movement game and more a team combat game. Not everyone's interested in that, sure, but it irks me when people assume "the way TFC is played right now is the only way a game can ever, ever require skill, and anyone that likes other games is a noobhat." (Not saying you're saying this, but it's a general tone among some of the top 5% of TFC players).

agreed

[Norris]

Originally Posted by Iggy

I think that a lot of people see the changes(graphics notwithstanding) as a detriment. It's no longer Team Fortress, it's a cartoony Counter-Strike.

"bs".

[reaper18]

Granted, whichever game is better is simply a matter of personal opinion and the knowledge of the true facts.
as well as experience with either game to give an honest answer to which is better, in your opinion.
information to back it up makes all the difference in the world

[AmazingNurseEnrique]

Originally Posted by nex nicholai

I get the dumbing down feeling from TF2, but its not just because of the grenades. It more comes from the lack of concs, air control (the scout's djump doesnt excite me), and the other various movement skills.

You said it yourself, TF2 is less of a movement game. For me, having some HW's walk across the bridge with medics healing them is a step down in gameplay. And that is the strategy that valve has advertised the most.

I guess my point is that if it wasnt for the depth and range of movement skills in TFC, I would have switched to BF/CS/BS a long time ago. Simple combat wont keep me in a game for 8+ years.

Yeah, this is what I'm getting at also. Most of the people playing TFC today still are sort of "Custer's Last Stand." People that are still into the original game obviously play it for the movement reasons because that's what the original game has evolved into. I don't expect that portion to enjoy TF2 for any of the same reasons. I still don't think a team combat game requires less skill than a movement game. Team Fortress Concussion is not the only way to seperate the boys from the men.

I played a few years of TFC and really enjoyed it, but honestly I've been there and done that. I'm ready for something new, and in that department TF2 delivers. There's also a laundry list of reasons while releasing another game close to TFC's roots commercially would be foolish for Valve.

That being said, here's a question; do you think Unreal or Quake are low-skill or noobie games? They're also games based on combat, although they add in the DM map control factors as well.

[SkynYrd]

Originally Posted by AmazingNurseEnrique

That being said, here's a question; do you think Unreal or Quake are low-skill or noobie games? They're also games based on combat, although they add in the DM map control factors as well.

I think it comes down to the speed of gameplay. People reach a point in games like TFC where they become so good at aiming (I'm not including myself here), the game becomes too boring unless the offense has a variety of movement options available to them (whether it be concs, bhop, raw speed, etc).

I think TF2 will be fun, but I am disappointed in some of their design choices. For example, it's been said that the scout is a formidable DMer now. But why? I don't want every match to devolve into the offense trying to kill off the defense on their way to the flag. The scout is supposed to be a finesse player... I don't understand the decision to remove his movement abilities and simply beef him up (that sounds like class standardization to me).


And GhOsT... don't make jackass comments towards me. It doesn't make me feel "warm and fuzzy" to call it bhopping and concing. That's ridiculous, how else am I supposed to refer to them? "First I'll exploit across the yard, exploit up the main ramp, exploit around the SG, grab the flag, exploit out of the base and then exploit back up to the cap point." If you are going to refute my position, give me some content or shut the fuck up.

[MikeQuist]

Originally Posted by SkynYrd

The scout is supposed to be a finesse player

I'm on your side but the classes aren't supposed to be anything. They can be whatever Valve wants them to be.

It's a sequel. Not a remake.

[nex nicholai]

Originally Posted by AmazingNurseEnrique

...do you think Unreal or Quake are low-skill or noobie games? They're also games based on combat, although they add in the DM map control factors as well.

Well, I never referred to TF2 and "noobie", and I did enjoy the unreal and quake games. Quake and unreal both had advanced movement features. Bhop originated in quake and you just have to look at some UT competition footage to see the movement obtained in those games.

The point I was making is that TF2 has shown game play in their marketing that is below what I want in a game. Can you honestly say that the HW medic combo that they have featured looks like fast paced gameplay?

You have the advantage of playtesting and seeing the potential they didnt show for whatever reason. My opinion can only go off of what they have shown. I will obviously play the game and I would be delighted if it had fast paced TF action.

[AmazingNurseEnrique]

Originally Posted by nex nicholai

Well, I never referred to TF2 and "noobie", and I did enjoy the unreal and quake games. Quake and unreal both had advanced movement features. Bhop originated in quake and you just have to look at some UT competition footage to see the movement obtained in those games.

The point I was making is that TF2 has shown game play in their marketing that is below what I want in a game. Can you honestly say that the HW medic combo that they have featured looks like fast paced gameplay?

You have the advantage of playtesting and seeing the potential they didnt show for whatever reason. My opinion can only go off of what they have shown. I will obviously play the game and I would be delighted if it had fast paced TF action.

UT also has dodging and piston jumps, so there's some movement there also.

That comment wasn't directed at you as much as the idea that there's a portion that feel TF will be noobie. Your post just made me think of it.

I'm mostly devil's advocating TF2 because I like to open up discussions about design and pic apart games. This community (and perhaps Catacombs) will be TF2's toughest customers for sure, because TFC is established with them already as a highly competitive game that they enjoy.

I'd say TFC is faster paced because of those movement abilities, but otherwise the combat was quite frantic. The medic does seem slow paced, he's definitely built for the people that like to support instead of fight. I think one class like this is OK (especially since now he doesn't overlap with scout like he used to) On a good note, he's a satisfying motherfucker to jump in and kill

Here's a nutshell of what it felt like to me: Q3 CTF and TDM (control points aren't really comparable to a Q3 gametype) with class mechanics and some really badass UI features. There still is a bit of movement abilities, such as rocket/pipe jump, and someone else rocketing you up. When I was playing scout, I teamed up with a Solider to get blasted on the the 2fort balcony a few times, which was a pretty cool way to combine a little teamwork and some fun high-flying shit. Double jump is more fun than I can express also.

You're right -- the marketing is spent on players who only casually played TFC or never tried it. To be honest, there's only really one type of strong hook for hardcore gamers, marketing wise -- it's to make it look interesting, and having all your friends/opponents in previous competitive games go "this is badass." It's looking at CAL and seeing three league divisions for a game. It's facts, not videos or marketing, that will sell your hardcore audience, because they're interested in gameplay first. Things like "Meet the Heavy" don't do anything for that audience because they don't show mechanics or gameplay, it just makes you think "Give me some info on HOW THE GAME WILL PLAY you assholes!"

This isn't hypothetical. I think all this shit at somepoint, and have to try to balance it out with what I've learned from making games. I thought TF2 looked cool, but was also worried that it was noobed up, or they didn't put enough effort into a skill curve, or that they cared so much about the accessibility that they didn't take the time to make the "end game" right.

I've turned from "this looks cool" to "I can't wait to play this game" after giving it a try. I got to see and feel the gameplay, which is the kind of facts and figures I think everyone needs to see before they can decide if they'll like it or not. No amount of graphics, marketing or promotional videos will do it here.

And that's why we <3 hardcore players. Bullshit just doesn't fly with that audience, and a lot of us come from here too.