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Old 11-20-2008, 05:12 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chilledsanity
Credge: I don't mean to say that gameplay should evolve around one map, nor one gameplay mode. I'm saying that if I was designing it, dustbowl would be a major consideration for testing how balanced the game is. Right now something like dustbowl is getting completely stomped on, so it's an indicator the game isn't balanced. If something like congestus became totally unplayable, then I'd say the same thing. And I'm referring to all the gates, but especially 2 and 3.
Well, currently, Congestus is unplayable because of how fast the offense is. It was a cap fest before, and it's even worse now. This is mainly due to the heavy (the main source of open map killing) being super weak. 2.2 will fix that pretty soundly if the heavy remains closely similar to how he is in beta right now (a good thing!).

A large part of AVD issues revolve around the jump pad. Remove the jump pad and AVD becomes much more doable on defense. That thing really caused a lot more problems than it fixed =\.
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Old 11-20-2008, 05:37 AM   #42
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I'd say the jumppad absolutely devastated cornfield, as did pyro jumping (don't get me wrong, I like both of those things). It had less of an impact on dustbowl though. Either way, FF has seen a lot of changes slanted towards offense. The new hwguy is a step in the right direction for helping D, but they definitely need some more help.
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Old 11-20-2008, 05:47 AM   #43
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I'd like to take this moment to add once again that:

1) Every map is different and different classes behave differently on different maps....go figure. It's all about how to play a map. Some are high scoring fast paced affairs, and some are not. It would virtually impossible to balance every map to every class so that they all contain no clear area where one class had an advantage.

2) Altering the abilities of a particular class only affects the scoring balance of OvD or Hunted maps, and not ones where the they switch if all the cap points are taken. Class balance is equal given an equal chance at the objective for either team even if a particular class is more advantageous to play on a certain map.

The thing about this Mod is that the changes they make to the classes are based on clan play and not the pubbers. If the Modders feel that the changes they make help clan play, then I say so be it. The pub play will adapt as it needs to, and I still get killed by Engys and their guns plenty enough to not give a rat's ass about SG strength.

I would also like to hear less bitching about Congestus being broken. It's a high scoring map.....that's it. Albeit, if you don't have anybody on your team that's good at concing you will lose.....but that's just too bad for your team. Every CTF map ever made is all about capping more than the other team, and if you can't keep up, it's not the map's fault.
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Old 11-20-2008, 05:48 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peon
I would also like to hear less bitching about Congestus being broken. It's a high scoring map.....that's it. Albeit, if you don't have anybody on your team that's good at concing you will lose.....but that's just too bad for your team. Every CTF map ever made is all about capping more than the other team, and if you can't keep up, it's not the map's fault.
The map plays terribly because of class balance, not because of a broken map.
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Old 11-20-2008, 06:29 AM   #45
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Ha, I just pulled congestus out of a hat as an example, I didn't realize it had problems.

Peon: Of course there are differences in the levels. Except like you said, some maps are fast, others are not. Dustbowl is a long game of attrition that's meant to last in the neighborhood of 20+ minutes. The existing changes have turned it into a 5-10 minute capfest. And like you said, that's it, no sides reset, the map's over, it's turned into one of my favorite maps to a rather unsatisfying experience.
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Old 11-20-2008, 06:55 AM   #46
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Well guys, I dunno. I thought the problems with the engy would have been clear as day to everyone, but looks like that's a no. You guys do sound obsessed with build times rather than these other huge problems, but whatever. Some of you get what I'm talking about, but not the people in charge I'm guessing.

I guess you answered my question bout how to keep the sg alive. Basically you don't, unless your whole team pitches in. I don't understand why the whole team should have to support the engy when none of the other classes are that way. I thought it was the other way around, the engy's supposed to support his team, but instead he's the one who needs a babysitter. It all sounds backwards to me, but if that's what you guys want for clanning, then I guess good luck with that.

I'll check back for 2.2 to see if engy's been fixed at all, but if the devs are trying to keep the sg so weak then I'm probably gonna bail, cuz its just not as much fun as other TF games then. Anyway, good luck with the mod, its seriously awesome in almost every other way, that's why I'm bummed that this probably isn't gonna be fixed.
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Old 11-20-2008, 07:14 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by splurbp
Well guys, I dunno. I thought the problems with the engy would have been clear as day to everyone, but looks like that's a no.
There are problems, yes. And they will be addressed (maybe not in 2.2, though). The people in the thread are just providing you with ways of coping with the perceived nerfing.
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Old 11-20-2008, 06:43 PM   #48
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splurbp: If you want a map where the sg can actually hold its own in pubs, try ff_vertigo. Get enough people in there and it's hell getting through to the sg. For everything else though, things do not bode well.

squeek: I'd call it situational nerfing, since it's skewed hard in pubs, but ph balanced for league play apparently.
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Old 11-20-2008, 09:37 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chilledsanity
splurbp: If you want a map where the sg can actually hold its own in pubs, try ff_vertigo. Get enough people in there and it's hell getting through to the sg. For everything else though, things do not bode well.

squeek: I'd call it situational nerfing, since it's skewed hard in pubs, but ph balanced for league play apparently.
not really, the build time has to go back to 5 seconds or so, since its so fast to get to level 3. right now every run its a level 3 again. so its worthless attacking the sg because it will go back up to level 3 mere seconds. and a well places SG is impossible to get at. i guess it makes the spy more useful, but i am not a fan at all of the 3 second build time or 40 cells regen in the disp. everyone knows im an advocate against the changes and just went with the flow of things during beta after i exhausted myself trying to prove you guys wrong.

some things were right, most things were wrong with the changes. most the active community that are non-leaguers/beta will agree.
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Old 11-21-2008, 01:01 AM   #50
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Splurbp, the SG in 2.1 was balanced so you could leave it and let it die, and quickly rebuild another one in a different place. It was designed to stop the 2.0 "build in one place and +attack1 behind it and rack up 50 kills". (if you booted FF and expected free frags for sitting behind a SG, sorry!)

Admittedly though, it's not perfect right now, and we will be changing the engineer more after this next patch is out. Particularly the frustration of relying on other players to defend your SG, but being unable to leave your SG to defend it yourself.

Also, it is designed to stop fast classes, scout, medic and pyro. If the other team is playing heavier classes on offense, then you should be playing a different class (sniper, pyro, spy, soldier are all good vs heavy classes). It is designed to mop up the remainder of an attack force, not be at the forefront of a defensive line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by splurbp
HWGUY just walks right up to my gun and overpowers it. wtf?
If an HWGuy manages to get anywhere near your SG then yes, your SG should die. He's the slowest, most powerful class in the game. How have you let him get anywhere near your SG?

Quote:
DEMOMAN can fly right in and drop pipes and mirvs, it doesn't push them back or anything
Demoman can't even conc, build higher up and he cant get a mirv anywhere near. Otherwise, play a better suited class.

Quote:
MEDICS would fly in and throw a grenade and take it out with sng. Seriously, a MEDIC
I strongly suspect you were playing against a highly skilled medic, don't take it personally, it's not indicative of the class. You should also be able to rebuild before that medic gets back anyway.

Quote:
SPIES can go invisible now AND not get shot, like they needed more help taking out sg's
They can't sabotage invisible though, so just stay near your SG. If you hear the sonar beep it means a cloaked spy is nearby, so just wait for him to pop out and frag his ass.

Quote:
SOLDIERS dance ALL OVER my ass. In every way possible. There's just nothing I can do.
Yep, soldier is (and rightfully should be) the ultimate SG killer. However, he is able to get off a flurry of rockets a little too fast right now, and also the SG doesnt properly block explosions, which makes this battle a little one sided. We will fix this.


P.S. If you could give examples of positions in certain maps you've played where you think your SG should have been doing better than it has, i'd be interested to hear. We lack accurate feedback from the regular public players.
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Old 11-21-2008, 01:06 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chilledsanity
I'd say the jumppad absolutely devastated cornfield, as did pyro jumping (don't get me wrong, I like both of those things). It had less of an impact on dustbowl though. Either way, FF has seen a lot of changes slanted towards offense. The new hwguy is a step in the right direction for helping D, but they definitely need some more help.
These maps are fundamentally flawed anyway. The fact that 1 guy can get past a defensive line and finish the game / reset everyones defense is stupid. Hopefully soon we'll have some new maps that fix this problem, whilst still catering to the hardcore pubbers.
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Old 11-21-2008, 01:17 AM   #52
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Well, Yes I think we can. I just need to apply it properly. later If I have more time I can .
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Old 11-21-2008, 01:37 AM   #53
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it needs the CP hold thing from CZ2 on each point imo \o/
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Old 11-21-2008, 05:37 AM   #54
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it needs the CP hold thing from CZ2 on each point imo \o/
You really need to get your head in the game, merv.
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Old 11-21-2008, 10:55 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AfterShock
I strongly suspect you were playing against a highly skilled medic, don't take it personally, it's not indicative of the class. You should also be able to rebuild before that medic gets back anyway.
sorry, but did you actually play your game? on most maps the conc-classes get faster from their respawn into my basement/fr then i do get from my respawn into my basement/fr. And to setup an lvl2-gun you have at least to get to your resup twice so i need to run that path 4-times...
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Old 11-21-2008, 11:10 AM   #56
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yeah, sorry. i spend most of my time over in ubuntu these days, and FF for some reason crashes at the menu

and when i do get FF time in, its usually CTF
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Old 11-21-2008, 01:10 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by mixer
sorry, but did you actually play your game? on most maps the conc-classes get faster from their respawn into my basement/fr then i do get from my respawn into my basement/fr. And to setup an lvl2-gun you have at least to get to your resup twice so i need to run that path 4-times...
Lets see.. sd2 ramp to building: 8 seconds. Medic to flag room: 15 seconds
openfire resup to building: 5 seconds. Medic to flag room: 9-12 seconds
aardvark resup to building: 5 seconds. Medic to flag room: 11 seconds

And if you already have a dispenser / discarded bags you can get level 2 instantly.

So yes. I have played my own game. Maybe the only map you've played is 2fort?
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Old 11-21-2008, 01:33 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aftershock
Splurbp, the SG in 2.1 was balanced so you could leave it and let it die, and quickly rebuild another one in a different place.
Why would it be balanced that way knowing that it's easier for spies to sabotage than ever? Sabotages train engineers NOT to leave their guns, it can hurt the whole team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aftershock
It was designed to stop the 2.0 "build in one place and +attack1 behind it and rack up 50 kills". (if you booted FF and expected free frags for sitting behind a SG, sorry!)
Well that's kind of how it was in TFC, but your free kills were only classes not using any tactics (that's not a good thing?). So if you sniped it, or went spy, or came at it from an angle it couldn't detect, etc. you could still bring them down easily.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aftershock
Admittedly though, it's not perfect right now, and we will be changing the engineer more after this next patch is out. Particularly the frustration of relying on other players to defend your SG, but being unable to leave your SG to defend it yourself.
I think that's really what this comes down to. Everyone recognizes the advantages of teamwork, but no one likes to be helpless without it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aftershock
The fact that 1 guy can get past a defensive line and finish the game / reset everyones defense is stupid.
I'm in total agreement. In my mind a perfect game of AvD is one where the offense gets by either through 1. Very clever/skilled tactics or 2. Dumb luck or 3. A gradual wearing down of defenses. It should be a long game and it should be iffy about which side is going to win. As it stands now, I would bet any money that offense will win almost any AvD game with skilled players on either side, D just doesn't have enough to work with at the moment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aftershock
Yep, soldier is (and rightfully should be) the ultimate SG killer.
Actually back in TFC I could usually hold out against one soldier as an engy. In FF I can't unless the soldier screws around (doesn't go straight for the gun). The explosion blocking is huge though, I'm glad you acknowledge that. I think it's very lopsided at the moment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aftershock
P.S. If you could give examples of positions in certain maps you've played where you think your SG should have been doing better than it has, i'd be interested to hear. We lack accurate feedback from the regular public players.
Well I don't know what splurbp was doing, but I can testify for some maps:

dustbowl: Anywhere near the gates (all 3). These don't have a reputation of staying up for very long anyway, but it's FAST now. It barely even slows down the enemy. Also near cap for cap 2 and 3 (unless its hidden out of the way for 3). They just go down so damn fast. Also I'd like to add that while the ones around cap 1 stay up reasonably well, they don't do their job. Enemies can make decent progress on the flag before dying even with 3+ sg's that wouldn't have been possible before (it would have taken some tactics). It's the lack of push that doesn't deter enemies from straight-lining it.
cornfield: Behind the tow truck near the 3rd cap. In older version of FF I could keep this up for a fair while. Now it goes down very fast. Same deal for the corner next to the wall by the bridge on cap 4.
openfire: pretty much anywhere
congestus: pretty much anywhere
epicenter: On the crates after the main crossover area. An elevated sentry here used to hold its own for a little bit, not much at all now.
aardvark: on top of the 2 catwalks when you come up the ramp, and the raised platform opposite the flag. Enemies basically run up to them and start blasting away rather than getting pushed back.
anticitizen: I don't have much comparison since this came out in 2.1, but about the only effective area is at the end of cap 2 since everyone is drained by that point anyway. They go down fast for Caps 1 and 3 (3 because of the range) and again, for Cap 1, they don't do their job of stopping the enemy from capping.
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Old 11-21-2008, 01:51 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chilledsanity
Well that's kind of how it was in TFC, but your free kills were only classes not using any tactics (that's not a good thing?). So if you sniped it, or went spy, or came at it from an angle it couldn't detect, etc. you could still bring them down easily.
That's kind of my issue with the TFC SG and it's something still present in league play FF. +attack on your gun with your wrench out is just as skill-less as not using any tactics, mainly because you aren't. It takes a large leap of skill to just >get past< an SG compared to the skill required to build and maintain it. All it takes is the knowledge of where to put your gun... something that is just trial and error if you don't know what you're doing.

The biggest issue with the FF SG, besides it being backwards to how it should be, is that the tracking speed and time it takes to attack the enemy are a nearly completely redundant feature. I don't need accurate pointing when the thing turns fairly fast, but the whole situation is tits up when there are various situations where an SG will not fire on an enemy despite being able to see him.

Part of the deal in TFC was that you had to aim your gun in the direction you wanted it to shoot and it had a hard time not shooting enemies that weren't close its LOS. Now, due to how long it takes for the SG to start shooting, aiming it is almost redundant. It's either going to shoot and hit the, or spend forever attempting to track and shoot at the enemy.

Of course, when you have people protecting your gun and disrupting enemy movement, it's going to make the gun able to do its job.

IMHO the best solution to this issue is to revert to TFC style turret turn speed while also reverting back to the instant track of the TFC SG. This way, aiming is an important part of it, it will start shooting enemies once it tracks them (or very very shortly after), and if an enemy gets past it from a good conc, it's game over.

Mainly I hate hate hate hate hate having to babysit someone elses gun in competitive play when I'm not even that damned class.
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Old 11-21-2008, 02:49 PM   #60
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So yes. I have played my own game. Maybe the only map you've played is 2fort?
since im a pubber and 2fort is the most played map there ... yes you are more or less right there
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