Fixing the HW - Dash/hop

[impy]

The HW is a bit weak. A bit as in; one medic who knows what hes doing can easily kill a HW. The HW's AC needs longer range, or the HW has to be able to move while shooting.

I know either of these options will have unforseen unbalancing issues; thus I suggest a 'dash'. The 'dash' will only be able to be used after first firing the gun, then when the player stops firing and presses the specail fire, it will 'dash' the HW forward a few feet. The dash should be limited to 5 feet or so.

This will fix many of the balancing issues regarding the HW. First, it will allow the HW to dodge grenades to some extent, minus the ones that explode spot on. Second, it will help to mitigate the range defeciet of the AC Gun, without overpowering it.

Edit: To prevent the dash from being used in conjunction with movement, set the players speed similar to that of a spy, after landing, from the dash: No bunny.

So, any input on this awesome idea?

[Lynus]

fatties charging after medics, ftw...

or you could implement a secondary fire option for the AC that shoots a laser or something that way you have a stronger firing option for the medics that use their supernailgun from far distances

or, this is my favorite.. you could reduce the damage teh supernail gun does... maybe decrease damage of nails as distance between medic and target increases... maxxed out of course and while we're at it, reimplement medpacks giving a little more than 100% health... instead of it being %150 like before, maybe change it from %100 to maybe %120

[squeek.]

There is actually something similar that will be tested in the beta soon.

[MonoXideAtWork]

my suggestion? Remove the movement penalty for hw altogether.

[Hammock]

I don't even think a "dash" is nescessary. My biggest gripe about the HW is that when he starts shooting his movement is like hitting a wall. Instant immobility. He just needs a more gradual slow down. It'd be a small change that would make him more agile in combat while still not allowing him to travel as quick. It'd also fix the stupid studdering on the screen. It drives me nuts when I'm revving my AC continously and if I rev a bit too much my whole screen shakes everytime I start firing since I'm rarely standing perfectly still while doing it, doing this repeatedly is annoying cause it's a constant shake on my screen.

[EquilibriuM]

About the medpack idea he mentioned, screw that, be happy you can even toss a medpack, we never had that in tfc, but over charging is unbalanced, O is easy enuff for most ppl that play primarly O. This making it tuff for D as is, example 2 meds pumping themselfs up right before they engage that lone solly on the ramp, then repeating as they are about to enter the FR. Keep in mind before you repsond to my reply, This is just my opinion!

[[AE] 82694]

So you don't remember Medics behind a HW in tfc and just raping ?

[Alex K]

I think the HW needs a button for spin-up the minigun and an alternative fire, it does very litle damage and its easy to evade, maybe more health, when he's fire its a very easy target

[~kev~]

Originally Posted by impy

The HW is a bit weak. A bit as in; one medic who knows what hes doing can easily kill a HW.

Anything that reduces or counters the awesomeness of the medic will be rejected. Everyone knows that the devs love the super powered bunny hopping medic. Its been that way from the second FF went public, and it will continue to be that way.

===================

I think the spin up time for the canon needs to be reduced - and take away that over heat bar. The HW needs the be lethal at close range.

HW - lethal a close range, and almost useless at long range.

The HW guy is great for defense, but his role seems to be confused. I can take the HW in waterpolo, spray the enemy team and clear them out. The long range damage of the HW should be reduced and the close range damage made very lethal.

[Credge]

Originally Posted by Lynus

or, this is my favorite.. you could reduce the damage teh supernail gun does... maybe decrease damage of nails as distance between medic and target increases... maxxed out of course and while we're at it, reimplement medpacks giving a little more than 100% health... instead of it being %150 like before, maybe change it from %100 to maybe %120

The medic is supposed to be a sentry gun killer. This is why his nails do as much damage as they do.

However, I do agree that they do too much damage, at least to players.

[impy]

Originally Posted by ~kev~

Anything that reduces or counters the awesomeness of the medic will be rejected. Everyone knows that the devs love the super powered bunny hopping medic. Its been that way from the second FF went public, and it will continue to be that way.

Hey dude, go fuck yourself. The dev's for this mod is great. Right after I posted this, I PM'd squeek on IRC and we had a good discussion. I don't know any other mod teams that has such a direct connection with its community. Instead of being hostile in the way you deliver your opinions, try being nice, fuckface.

[Crazycarl]

I really want the dash thing. I'm constantly having to switch to shotty just so I can move away from the pile of grenades everyone puts at my feet. I'd have it available any time, but with a half-second cooldown where you can't fire or move.

[~kev~]

Originally Posted by impy

Hey dude, go fuck yourself. try being nice, fuckface.

And your telling "me" to be nice?

Most of the people here know how I feel about FF - including the developers.

===================

As for the HW

Why is the cool down even in the game? It it really needed? If the cool down is not needed, then take it out.

When the cannons stop spinning, return the HW to his normal speed. But it would be nice if the HW was a little more mobile while firing.

[TheWetMule]

Originally Posted by ~kev~

And your telling "me" to be nice?

Most of the people here know how I feel about FF - including the developers.

===================

As for the HW

Why is the cool down even in the game? It it really needed? If the cool down is not needed, then take it out.

When the cannons stop spinning, return the HW to his normal speed. But it would be nice if the HW was a little more mobile while firing.

Doesn't switching to the shotty when you wanna stop take you straight back to normal speed anyway? I haven't played in a while sure it did in 2.2 :]

[Ihmhi]

No, ~kev~'s pretty much spot on, but it's not just the devs that are like this. It's the devs, testers, and community as a whole - at times.

I wrote (and subsequently deleted herein) a long rant about one of my particular ideas - I'd hate to reveal it if it does turn out getting implemented.

The basics of it were replacing the super shotgun with a ranged healing gun for the medic. It fired projectiles of a sort that would heal allies or infect enemies.

The posts that followed were basically:

• We can't get this ready in time for 2.1 (it wasn't a 2.1 idea).
• We can't take away the Medic's precious SSG
• The medic is already a good enough healer as is
• The medic isn't much of a healing class anyway
• No one would use it

And a whole host of other complaints. We even had a model mockup. We could just modify existing guns (pipelauncher, IC) as a test model and see how it played without contributing significant resources.

The problem for making any changes is that no one likes to see any kind of tradeoff. This ends up making classes more powerful overall. People also don't like seeing things change if it would affect the way they play, i.e. "don't change my beloved $CLASS!". So nothing really gets done.

Add to this the fact that we have staff shortages in nearly every department. It's a wonder anything innovative gets done around here.

We basically have this list of stuff we think needs to be done. Orange Box, fix model animations, etc. etc. This stuff takes priority.

Right now, the game works for the most part. When we basically fucked up the HW for 2.0 there was a huge outcry about that. Subsequent gameplay balancing had some bitching (as would be expected), but nearly nothing of that magnitude. We can tell, very easily, by how a change is received by the community by just reading the forums and reading what people write in-game about it. Simple as that.

Could the HW be better? Yes, but we have more important stuff to do. If you'd like to help, find someone who can code in Source SDK. Ditto on modellers, animators, mappers, etc. The best way you can help FF is to find talented people and point them towards us.

As for people being snarky in this thread, I don't particularly care what anyone in the community thinks of me as a dev. I daresay most of the other devs would say the same thing. What we care about is your opinion on the work we've done so far and nothing more. What I do care about, however, is that people follow the rules on these forums - such as acting civilly towards one another.

[Demasu]

Originally Posted by [AE] 82694

So you don't remember Medics behind a HW in tfc and just raping ?

I do. My favorite class in TFC was HW, and Medic on the rare occasion I played O, but I never had the problem when I played HW, because I kept my mouse sensitivity up so I could turn easily. Now of course a skilled medic could bring me down, but the medic would have to be pretty tricky. I found it pretty easy as a medic to bring down a few HWs with the nailgun, simply because they couldn't turn. Since that still holds true in FF, by decreasing the speed the HW moves while firing, you make him easier to kill.

[Credge]

I'll just throw this out there so it will be said.

Any problem with the heavy is the direct result of the increase of speed that exists in FF from TFC. Two things can happen to make the heavy a better choice for defense:

1. Increase his ROF (not good and was tested).

2. Increase his damage.

The issue that was found in the 2.0 heavy was his cone of fire sucked. Now, there are two cones at work. An inner and outer cone. As a result of this, the heavy can actually kill things that are moving at high speeds.

The problem that is present with the heavy currently is that he can't mitigate the enemies speed like a soldier can with proper positioning ~ that's not how the class works. As a result, the incredibly fast movement of the scout and medic are no match for his damage. However, in large, open areas, like the SD2 flag room, he is very, very good.

The fix to the heavy doesn't sit in the hands of damage though. Doing so would just make yard heavies something too strong ~ something that isn't really acceptable.

What the heavy needs is something to mitigate the speed of his enemies. I'm not suggesting a slow or push... that's not fun for anyone. Increasing his movement speed in any way isn't a real answer ~ that makes him mobile. He is not a mobile class.

I don't feel giving him a dash or a hop is a step in the right direction. It wouldn't actually address any of the issues that impact him, such as his inability to mitigate the enemies speed.

I'm not saying that I have an answer ~ I don't. I think he's fine as is now. There are other classes that are in dire need of attention, like the sniper.

[Ihmhi]

One thing that definitely needs to be fixed is the way speed reduction works. It has to reduce to an amount, not reduce an amount. Here's an example.

For the sake of discussion, let's assume that the HW's speed is 100. When he's firing, his speed is reduced to 40. All's cool here.

Now the HW gets tranqued, which reduces his speed by 60. As a result, the HW's speed is now 0. This is how it works now. The same thing happens with any speed reduction - tranq, legshot, carrying the flag on dustbowl, etc.

The way it needs to work is it has to reduce is speed to an amount and not have any additional penalties apply to it. If you're tranqued and you're firing the AC, you literally can't move - you're knifebait at that point.

[Hammock]

Originally Posted by Credge

I'll just throw this out there so it will be said.

Any problem with the heavy is the direct result of the increase of speed that exists in FF from TFC. Two things can happen to make the heavy a better choice for defense:

1. Increase his ROF (not good and was tested).

2. Increase his damage.

The issue that was found in the 2.0 heavy was his cone of fire sucked. Now, there are two cones at work. An inner and outer cone. As a result of this, the heavy can actually kill things that are moving at high speeds.

The problem that is present with the heavy currently is that he can't mitigate the enemies speed like a soldier can with proper positioning ~ that's not how the class works. As a result, the incredibly fast movement of the scout and medic are no match for his damage. However, in large, open areas, like the SD2 flag room, he is very, very good.

The fix to the heavy doesn't sit in the hands of damage though. Doing so would just make yard heavies something too strong ~ something that isn't really acceptable.

What the heavy needs is something to mitigate the speed of his enemies. I'm not suggesting a slow or push... that's not fun for anyone. Increasing his movement speed in any way isn't a real answer ~ that makes him mobile. He is not a mobile class.

I don't feel giving him a dash or a hop is a step in the right direction. It wouldn't actually address any of the issues that impact him, such as his inability to mitigate the enemies speed.

Why does he need to mitigate an enemy's speed/movement. That's the soldier's domain really. Why not try what monoxide suggested and remove the HW's speed reduction when firing completely. Your entire post references problems of "increased speed of the game". Yet the most detrimental thing to the HW is his speed reduction when he shoots. As soon as he starts shooting he has lost all ability to chase down the enemy around a corner, or ones that have gotten past him at choke points, or even DMing any class 1v1 (since he can't move he has no ability to dodge like other classes do, making a duel of HW's completely boring and repetitive, it's just point-click-spam). The HW is already the slowest moving class out there, then we cripple him more by making him practically immobile while shooting? And then the suggestions (and not just from you) are "Well we need to give him something to reduce the speed of his enemies", when quite possibley an easy simple solution could be to just remove his insanely crippling effect of "immobile while he shoots". In a game that's this fast pace this is definately one of the biggest reasons the HW still suffers.

[Skanky Butterpuss]

i would be all for testing an hw with LESS speed reduction while shooting, but i dont think having no speed reduction at all is a very good idea.