Physics Questions/Discussion

[o_sobe green]

Alright I've read or atleast skimmed through nearly every topic. I'm on these forums daily and I've yet to completely get an idea of how the Source engines physics are going to come into play in FF. Here are a few questions I have mostly out of curiosity. I'm not an expert in the physics of the HL engine or TFC so if I'm wrong on any of this let me know.

Concs
In TFC as far as I can tell there aren't any huge differences in how far your thrown. It seems most classes are "pushed" at about the same speed with some slight differences in the distance. For example a scout will be thrown pretty far while a HW most of the time is just pushed back a few notches. With these new physics will the scout have a slight distance benefit from concing over the medic? I've done a few tests and while they aren't really accurate from what I can tell in height the scout and medic rank pretty close. It would seem to make a little more sense if a scout was thrown a little more up and forward than the medic was. Maybe it is already like this in TFC I don't know. My tests consisted of loading a concmap and conc jumping straight up and spraying the wall in front of me at the height of my jump. Not very accurate I know.

Weapons
I'm pretty sure you guys are going to be using the same system as TFC in which each class moves at its own set speed. But out of pure curiosity I'm going to ask anyway. Will there be any weapon weight at all? An example of this can be seen in CS. Maybe not to that severe degree, but will there be any difference in speed -at all- compared to having the AC out or having the shotgun out?

Ragdolls/Gibs + Detpacks
I know its been said that there will be both ragdolls, gibs, and something else we haven't been told yet (which I'm guessing is a mixture of both) depending on the death type. This was brought up in another thread and it had me wondering. Currently in TFC if you are on or near a detpack when it explodes, you gib. Will this be the same or will we maybe see a "CS Bomb Explosion" effect consisting of flying ragdolls? And then for ragdolls themselves we are back to the weight question. Will the dead bodies take on the weight of the class that they were? For example if you shot a dead scout with an RPG would it fly further than a dead HW? Lastly, will the ragdolls/gibs be catching fire in anyway shape or form?

Keep in mind I'm not suggesting any of this, but more curious as how the new physics will come into play. Other than concing none of these questions really effect the gameplay much. It seems most topics consist of suggesting or improving the classes and gameplay. I'm simply trying to drill the devs for some slight answers towards the actual physics of the game.

This post is being made late late into the night, I'll edit it tomorrow for spelling errors if I've made any.

[o_morridyn]

Conc and Ragdoll and Gib are answered in the FAQ (by you?) and you have links to these very topics. I don't understand why you would create a new thread when you tracked down all the threads related to these topics.

[Defrag]

Originally Posted by SoBe Green

Concs
In TFC as far as I can tell there aren't any huge differences in how far your thrown. It seems most classes are "pushed" at about the same speed with some slight differences in the distance. For example a scout will be thrown pretty far while a HW most of the time is just pushed back a few notches. With these new physics will the scout have a slight distance benefit from concing over the medic? I've done a few tests and while they aren't really accurate from what I can tell in height the scout and medic rank pretty close. It would seem to make a little more sense if a scout was thrown a little more up and forward than the medic was. Maybe it is already like this in TFC I don't know. My tests consisted of loading a concmap and conc jumping straight up and spraying the wall in front of me at the height of my jump. Not very accurate I know.

The medic and the scout both jump upwards with the same speed, so they will both jump to the same height with conc acceleration regardless of their weight. We only let the source physics system affect the game where we choose it to do so.

Weapons
I'm pretty sure you guys are going to be using the same system as TFC in which each class moves at its own set speed. But out of pure curiosity I'm going to ask anyway. Will there be any weapon weight at all? An example of this can be seen in CS. Maybe not to that severe degree, but will there be any difference in speed -at all- compared to having the AC out or having the shotgun out?

Even in a realistic mod, it is largely nonsensical. What happens to the heavy gun when it's not equipped? The character must still carry it regardless. If anything, the unwieldiness would result in a loss of mobility in terms of being able to turn around quickly more than anything else. Weighted weapons have no place in a non-realistic mod such as TF. The only time they do appear (HW firing etc.) is when balance requires it.

Ragdolls/Gibs + Detpacks
I know its been said that there will be both ragdolls, gibs, and something else we haven't been told yet (which I'm guessing is a mixture of both) depending on the death type. This was brought up in another thread and it had me wondering. Currently in TFC if you are on or near a detpack when it explodes, you gib. Will this be the same or will we maybe see a "CS Bomb Explosion" effect consisting of flying ragdolls? And then for ragdolls themselves we are back to the weight question. Will the dead bodies take on the weight of the class that they were? For example if you shot a dead scout with an RPG would it fly further than a dead HW? Lastly, will the ragdolls/gibs be catching fire in anyway shape or form?

We're still discussing this. It can be either depending on what we decide. Bear in mind that in most cases, gibs occur when a certain amount of damage is taken. The detpack does ~1200-1300 damage, most other weapons inflict a fraction of that. Gibs would be the most sensible solution, though we could implement an arbitrary falloff that still does the same damage, but changes the distance at which someone is gibbed or not. I.e. the detpack's impact would remain precisely the same, but people on the edges of the blast would die via ragdolls instead.

Ultimately, we can do whatever we like in most cases. It's just a case of figuring out what is the best for gameplay and in terms of effects, what looks coolest / makes more sense

[o__thursday_]

This sounds like the sort of question that will be brought up alot as the community grows larger before release, add to FAQ?

[o_sobe green]

Originally Posted by Morridyn

Conc and Ragdoll and Gib are answered in the FAQ (by you?) and you have links to these very topics. I don't understand why you would create a new thread when you tracked down all the threads related to these topics.

No, the conc topics have nothing to do with weight. Other than this topic the only other mention of conc weight is by me. As for ragdolls, I wasn't asking if gibs and/or ragdolls will be in TFC. I was asking a question about them.

Anyway thanks for answering Defrag.

[o_repair man]

Originally Posted by SoBe Green

Concs
In TFC as far as I can tell there aren't any huge differences in how far your thrown. It seems most classes are "pushed" at about the same speed with some slight differences in the distance. For example a scout will be thrown pretty far while a HW most of the time is just pushed back a few notches. With these new physics will the scout have a slight distance benefit from concing over the medic? I've done a few tests and while they aren't really accurate from what I can tell in height the scout and medic rank pretty close.

To answer your questions on the TFC conc system, the conc push is the exact same for every class in terms of your average drop conc. There isn't any difference class to class, as "weight" doesn't have an effect on the push of a conc. When it comes to grenade or explosion jumps, then you start to see a difference in push. HW's are affected the least, scouts are affected the most. Every once in a while you might see a HW get blown 50 feet in the air from a simple RPG blast, but I'd be willing to bet that thats an engine bug .

The push given in a HH conc is entirely dependent on speed. Medics and Scouts can achieve the exact same height in a HH (jump acceleration is the same for each class), but seeing as the scout moves at a faster rate, it will travel further.

edited because I can't spell

[o_ekim]

The HWGuy gets half the push effect from explosions as his special ability, on top of his slow speed. Not sure about concs.

Medics and scouts achieve the same vertical speed when jumping, but a scout achieves greater horizontal speed so the scout gets greater horizontal push from an HH, leading to increased horizontal distance. They both achieve the same height from a HH conc.

[o_reverie]

I'm very interested to see how this mix of gibs and ragdolls will play out in FF. CS:S's ragdoll usage is topnotch for sure and I would love to see some kind of implementation in FF, despite it not being a realism-based game.

TF isn't the same without gibs, so it'll be great to see how it executes in Source.

[o_binarylife]

Maybe if a player too close gets thrown via ragdoll, but gibbs when they hit the ground.

[o_medi]

ragdoll gibs!! :P

[o_someoldguy]

The concept of the bodies being flung by ragdoll physics raises a few questions... (at least in my mind)

1) would the flying body/bodies be an object while in the air that would block bullets/grenades/other damage (as hiding behind a wall does)?

2) if the flying body/bodies hit someone, would they cause damage from the collision?

3) if the flying body/bodies hit someone, would they push/move that person a la concs?

4) if someone was concing while a body was flying thru the air and "collided" with it, would they be stopped by the collision (or at least pushed in the direction of the flying body)?

I'm sure there are more instances and examples (e.g. bodies flying into breakable glass, etc) that might be affected by the ragdoll body....

Just food for thought in this discussion...

[o_rebo]

As ragdoll bodies are client side in HL2 then there probably wont/and cant be any interaction with live players.

[o_jefferino]

Originally Posted by SoBe Green

Weapons
I'm pretty sure you guys are going to be using the same system as TFC in which each class moves at its own set speed. But out of pure curiosity I'm going to ask anyway. Will there be any weapon weight at all? An example of this can be seen in CS. Maybe not to that severe degree, but will there be any difference in speed -at all- compared to having the AC out or having the shotgun out?

I always wondered in CS why they run slower when holding a different weapon... They are going to have to carry the weapon anyway if they have it equipped or not. But even if it was equipped they may have to run slower for aimming but not as slow as as they have it in the game. Not very realistic and CS is very realistic.... I'm disappointed....

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by Jefferino

I always wondered in CS why they run slower when holding a different weapon... They are going to have to carry the weapon anyway if they have it equipped or not. But even if it was equipped they may have to run slower for aimming but not as slow as as they have it in the game. Not very realistic and CS is very realistic.... I'm disappointed....

The only logic that seems to explain this is that different guns necessitate different "stances" to aim properly (as you suggested), and that holding that stance requres a reduction in speed. So you need to move slower to keep a rife aimed properly vs. a pistol.

Not saying this is correct, just that this is probably why they did it in CS...

The actual size of the reduction is probably based more on balance than logic
What they should do in CS is allow you to run w/o the gun aimed for extra speed - like DoD does. Unlike DoD however, give the player the ability to run for more than 2 seconds w/o gasping for breath...

And CS is really not realistic if you think about it - it just is if you compare it to games like TFC

[o_|404|innoc-tpf-]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

And CS is really not realistic if you think about it

That is utter NONSENSE! Why just the other day I recall Colin Ferrell and his partner bhopping into the bank at the beginning of the movie SWAT. You really ought to get your facts straight...

[o_silver]

terrorists on pogo stix. thats a funny picture

[o_sobe green]

Didn't you know? Its all the rage!

[o_binarylife]

But even if it was equipped they may have to run slower for aimming but not as slow as as they have it in the game. Not very realistic and CS is very realistic.... I'm disappointed....

A: To run and shoot accurately at the same time is very difficult. So difficult that even fully trained marines will not do it. This is why while running in CS youre accuracy drops signifigantly.
B:Having a gun slung around your back makes for easier movement than carrying said gun in your hands. Thus, allowing you to run faster.
C: None of this really matters since TFC is in fact not based on the same level of realism and will not be implimenting said physics into FF.

[o_sobe green]

Yea like I said I wasn't asking if we could have that effect in FF. Just after playing around with Garry's Mod I have started to understand (a little) how almost every object in the game has its own "weight".