The Rant of a Disenchanted Fortress Player

[o_sponge]

Somewhat random, so here goes:

I've been following the development of everything Fortress related since the original TF. Ever since QWTF essentially died, I've been looking for something to move on to.

TFC was a no-go; it moved like Half-Life, which just felt too muddy for me.

Q3F was it for a while: large, active community. Mishandling by the dev team killed the mod overnight.

Enemy Territory was my addiction for a long time, and still is to a degree. Splash Damage learned from their failures in Q3F. Unfortuantely, it's not quite TF, though clearly very inspired by it.

This is when ETF came along. "Great!" I say to myself in an optimism I'd soon come to regret, "a Fortress mod that is inspired by the original QWTF"

So months and months of waiting, following eagerly, for the release. Finally comes out, and the Sniper is hideously broken. Understandable, I suppose, since it's only temporarily. The community thrives, having more players than people playing etmain.

I go ahead and start recruiting for our clan {DeV}, one of those wacky multi-gaming clans. Week later, the community is near death. Nearly EVERY person on my pub who said it sucked said it was the bunnyhopping.

Of course, by this time, the old veterans come in. So there goes any chance of making the mod more pub friendly.

Thinking it's not so bad, we enter TWL 9v9, and still are. Then 1.1 is released, as if the community wasn't dead enough. Invisible players, and buggy sounds. And then a 2 week wait to fix these two bugs.

1.2 is released just in time for our first clan match against The Nexus, an incredibly nice group of people that've been extremely helpful to us starting out. The loss of 36-0 wasn't as bad as much as how the game is played: no longer is it about raw skill and finesse of a good frag, it's about memorizing the jumps for that level, and getting in and out with minimal contact. Bunnyhopping and conc jumping everywhere.

The game has regressed into tedium, and not teamwork, to be successful. Nonetheless, we'll probably stick with ETF until the bitter end, which will surely be in 2 seasons, if that. Let the veterans have their community. Take a scan through the TWL 9v9 results for this and previous weeks: you don't see a close match anywhere, really. ( http://etf-center.com/?page=results&id=4 ) Nor do you see many new faces if you're familiar with the community.

Right now, the American ETF community (Europeans apparently have around 50 active clans, and has a nice follinwg) is 15 Q3F teams who know what they're doing, vs 5 clans like us, who are new. And pretty much 19 of those clans are cocky, degrading. No need to point names, though reading through the match writeups above, you can see who.

So basically, we've got an awesome mod, with developers who are only appeased on moving this crippled aging community to engine after engine.

Now, I'm banking on Fortress Forever. From what I've seen, the developers are concerned about making a FUN game, and not a direct port, and even taking aspects of QWTF if they feel it'll make it better. If anything, take this pointless, insomnia induced rant, as encouragement for developers.

The fact is, if FF ends up being a direct port of TFC, as much as I disliked TFC (namely, the movement. HL physics were too slow, and the balance was a bit off than what I would've liked to have seen. Q3 physics minus speed exploits would be heaven) you'll have at least one more dedicated player/clan in the scene.

If FF is really going to be a mix of the best of all the Fortress mods (That's what I understood at least) then you guys will have an absolute hit on your hands-- just the marketing/publicity is what's going to lack, that's the only downfall I forsee. Especially if Valve go ahead and do their own thing.

Anyway, this is about all I can muster to rant on about for now, I'm sure to be keeping tabs on this thread/forum/mod. As long as it doesn't feel like I'm walking in mud like many HL2DM levels

[Defrag]

We understand your concerns, particularly regarding the vets v new players situation. If there's one thing I hate it's cocky people acting like assholes towards new players. Mods that cannot attract and maintain the influx of new players die very quickly.

TFC is still alive and that's mainly down to the A/D scene imo (much easier to get into, and there's a far greater variety of skill levels mixed in on the average pub running dustbowl et al).

Regarding the mod rather than the politics surrounding it: we're basically trying to build a mod that is fun for the majority. The onus is on keeping the new players without watering down the game. We are doing our best to deliver

[o_xerxes-]

Originally Posted by sponge

The loss of 36-0 wasn't as bad as much as how the game is played: no longer is it about raw skill and finesse of a good frag, it's about memorizing the jumps for that level, and getting in and out with minimal contact. Bunnyhopping and conc jumping everywhere.

How well you do in matches depends on your setup and teamwork. It has very little to do with bunnyhop and conc jumping. I think some of the TFC "veterans" from this forum will agree that it is the same for any TF-inspired game.

[o_anthraxium[wu]]

Yes, it is based on your teamwork and setup. We are a TFC clan that has moved into ETF until FF is released. It is going to take experience and knowledge to win matches in ETF. I also feel that bhopping is quite effective in ETF. Too effective.

Granted its not hard to learn but the vet people who know the rjs and concs can walk all over another team. This losing team doesnt even have to be super new or inexperienced. I think much of ETF is built around bhopping. Ever noticed how LARGE the map areas are? extremely wide compared to tfc. This is a result of the concing physics and the bhop turn radius ...

anyhow, i think i have kinda wandered off topic.

I agree with sponge that etf is dominated by conc + rj + bhop. I think its rather bad and worse in ETF than in TFC. However, you will need the Experience and correct formations to win a clan match in any mod (as xerxes has stated)

[o_rebo]

Our basic philosophy is this:

A thriving pub scene feeds the clanning communities, enabling them to grow and allow players to continue to enjoy and develop their game for years.

Without the former the latter is running on empty.

However that said one has to accept that the fortress game has moved on since the days of QWTF , in a Capture The Flag fortress clan match bunnyhopping and concing have become the de-rigour movement techniques. Whilst you personally may not like these techniques you should understand that in CTF they have become part of the game. In its full majesty the movement, style, and graceful dance of a clan attack combined with the deadly force of the shotgun, knife and grenade is a sight to truely behold in awe. ( c.f. BODYCOUNT avi)

And again we move on, because just as the truely original QWTF player has to accept that the CTF game has evolved so does the clanner. New game styles are developed and become popular most notably the Assault | A/D scene where a player , maybe a QWTF player, may find that gem of action objective and fragability that they loved in the old games. Here the battle revolves around capturing specific targets, with one side defending and the other attacking. Often no/few concs are available on these maps so back are the fully co-ordinated assaults and strategys of taking key points, counter attack, coordination , faux assults, subterfuge and destruction on an unprecidented scale.

What is being in a clan about? isnt it about working past challanges, devising strategys and plans and above all having fun as a team. The CTF style may no longer be what your after in a clan match, thats ok, and that doesnt mean you cant enjoy pubbing on 2fort or openfire. The alternative play styles like assault/AvD can and will support clans just as well. They are an integral part of our mod and we wont be simply paying them lipservice . The game can provide you with what you want. Find your thing and enjoy it.

Whose to say in 2 years time an entirely new style will be popular and the then old pros of CTF and Assault have to to adapt and welcome some new game style. The game is constantly changes, new ideas spring up and ignite peoples imagination. Thats the beauty of the fortress style it gives so much freedom to play a game how you want to.

We move forward

Together.

We Innovate

or Die.

Fortress Forever.

[o_pizzahut]

nvm, delete this please.

[o_xerxes-]

Very nice post rebo. This is why I (an ETF player, q3f and qwtf before) look forward to playing your mod. It just seems like it will suit everyones wants in a fortress mod, backed by a dev team that knows what fortress really is. Hopefully by the time FF comes out, HL2 is in the bargain bin.

[o_ping_chow_chi]

hummm, the above has left me with a quick question.

Will FF (CTF) maps be larger than their TFC equivalent to take into account the higher BH speed? In the same way that the teleporter has been omitted because you would have to take it into account when designing maps, and the maps would then be unbalanced if you where to remove it, the same could be said if you are making maps bigger due to the faster speed, yet bigger maps may then feel a little unbalanced to the people who are unable to master that skill. ( and yes, I am thinking about my stumpy fingers here ;p )

Also there are a couple hints above that you are planing on the public side of the MOD to be mainly A/D type of maps and the CTF maps for clan play, is this the case?

[o_rebo]

The bhop limit wont be significantly higher than it is in TFC so proportions will stay the same. I think the reason map proportions are big in ETF is because there is no upper limit to bunnyhop speed.

The engineer built teleporter was removed mainly because it made it almost impossible for mappers to design balanced maps. Even when the old maps were remade to take into account of teleporters like 2fort2k4, the teleporter still had a negative effect. When designing a map a good mapper uses the layout to slow down defense returning to position and provide obstacles that offence must negociate before being able to make a flag attempt. Engineer built teleporters cut right though this dynamic.

Also there are a couple hints above that you are planing on the public side of the MOD to be mainly A/D type of maps and the CTF maps for clan play, is this the case?

No we are not. We hope both game styles can support a vibrant and active clanning commmunity. It is true that A/D maps are easier for a newer player to comprehend, there is a set objective in these maps and every single person on your team is working towards the same objective. If these map styles help encourage players to pick up the basic skills then when they do try CTF gameplay they wont feel so lost and without direction.

[o_shaggy]

Originally Posted by rebo

The bhop limit wont be significantly higher than it is in TFC so proportions will stay the same. I think the reason map proportions are big in ETF is because there is no upper limit to bunnyhop speed.

As in yall are raising the bhop limit?!? SIGH

[o_rebo]

I never said that, i said it wont be significantly higher. That could mean it will be slightly higher , or it will be the same, or that it will be lower. It just wont be significantly higher.

[o_shaggy]

Say your boss told you, your new position wont significantly increase the number of hours you work. Do you think a. I may have a less hours to work. b. I have the same amount of hours as before. c. I'm screwed, i have to work more hours.

Maybe i'm a pestimist, but i assume c every time

[o_valk]

from 170% to 200%
hardly worth getting the tissues out for

[o_shaggy]

No but it may be worth walking away from the game. BH is already one of the most powerful skills, no need to raise the bar. Here's a question what would you rather have, decent aim, and good bh skill or good aim and decent bh skills. I, myself find the first choice to be a harder person to stop.

[o_eviliguana966]

TFC was my first TF game. It introduced me to the world of class based teamplay oriented action games. I have grown accustomed to it's tempo and style, and myself would probably feel less at home in any game that differs from it. I'm not sure what sponge is suggesting, but I thought that movement in Half Life always felt crisp, and that HL TFC moved at the perfect game speed. Any faster or slower and you would start to lose something. That's why I hope FF doesn't adopt a more "hyper" gameplay style so to speak.

My first online game was Jedi Knight / Mysteries of the Sith. For those unaware the full force + guns all out deathmatch was the most hyperactive twitch based gameplay imaginable. It was fun, but there is so much more potential in a slightly slower paced, more tactical game. MotS always left me hyper and irritable, TFC let me relax enough to enjoy the game. Make no mistake I was alert, fast, and quite good at it, but I didn't need to be worked up and hyper to succeed at it.

In my opinion, going the route of Q3 or UT 2004 deathmatch is not the right way. I don't want it to be so fast paced that only the caffiene high elite gamers can compete at all. That just isn't fun. TFC was still fast paced, but there was a great deal of emphasis on strategy and teamwork that made it all the more fun. The skill was still there, but manifested in a slightly different way than most pure deathmatch games. Are reflexes important? Yes, but so is timing, so is fluid movement, so is knowing which of your limited selection of weapons to use, so is knowing when you are outclassed and when to run. Deathmatch tends to put emphasis more on the former and less on that latter, and a lot of post TFC fortress mods seemed to style their gameplay after the tempo of their vanilla deathmatch games.

The interesting thing is even vanilla Half-Life deathmatch was more tactical than say quake or UT200X. I think that's why I have always liked HL multiplayer so much. It's a lot deeper than Quake 3's run-at-mach-3 spam-rockets-at-the-enemy gather-the-easter-eggs style gameplay.

Hopefully somone understands what I am trying to get at.

[schtoofa]

Nice post -- that was a good read

I hope you'll be pleased with what we release. We're aiming to learn from both the "mistakes" and successes of other TF mods, and games in general.

Admittedly, an enormous obstacle will be marketing FF. We obviously don't have the resources of a big-named game developing company, and the FF devs aren't earning any money for working on Fortress Forever. We're going to try and get the word across, but any help you folks can offer as far as spreading the word is much appreciated.

In the meantime, we'll work hard on giving you guys something good to play and talk about.

[o_valk]

and media updates each week
like this week's... :D?

[schtoofa]

hehe, patience. We have a lot of things being worked on concurrently, and we don't show things until they at least look pretty

[o_valk]

kerm wont be shown for a while then ;(

[o_sponge]

Don't get me wrong, bunnyhopping isn't evil. However while no bunnyhopping would be one extreme, the ETF "solution" is the other extreme. It looks like FF has a happy medium, which is what has me really psyched about the mod.

Really, bhopping adds a new element that seperates one clan from another. Unfortunately, I feel ETF gives this element too much emphasis. That's basically the issue that xerxes responded to: the actual killing has almost taken a back seat to tricks in the engine.

Actually, I LIKE everything that TFC brought to the scene. Just didn't like it's balance or physics, besides at the time I had too many other games that took my attention. Assault maps, handheld concs (which means a smaller learning curve for new people from my perspective) are all awesome changes.

Hell, about a year ago I would play ONLY conc maps in TFC-- I would never bother with the actual game. About 3-4 24/7 conc map servers in my favorites, and that's all I'd do. I would cry myself to sleep if such a thing was removed in FF, or ANY Fortress mod.

Believe me, I'm all for change. I see too many accounts of people finding the mod "fun 7 years ago"-- it's harder to compete today with the games we have, and the community needs to stay alive. Clanning shouldn't be given lipservice either, I fully intend on either joining or starting my own come release. However, again I think it comes down to an issue of extremes, the ETF team basically decided to concern only the clans, and putting pubs at a very distant second. I hear time after time on the forums that it's a clan mod, which is a bad direction to send a mod.

I recognize a few names here (Anthraxium, xerxes) hope to be playing with you folks when the mod comes out. Some ETF influence certainly is neccecary, although it's really a delicate touch.

EvilIguana: Admittetly, my years and years of Quake, and competitve DM/TDM jaded me to the HL physics right from the start. When I say the physics, I really don't know how to quantify it anymore than that, it's very intangible, hell it's probably in my head. There's just something about how the game moved that completly killed my enthusiasm. Maybe it was all the Q3 and Tribes I played back then.

Anyway, I probably come off as a wacko in that first post, however despite that, I'm usually quite moderate in my opinions. Neither QWTF, TFC, Q3F, or ETF had it perfect (some more or less than others) however as long as the developers know this (which they certainly do) they've got my full support.

By the way, major thanks for the lengthy, thoughtful responses dev team: they're much more than you ever would've gotten or expected on the ETF boards these past weeks. The only posts I see nowadays are either "no, we're not changing it" or a locked thread. If there's anyway I can help out, I'd love to take a crack at it, though admittetly my only real skill is graphic design/web development.