the way for ff to suceed

[Iggy]

Originally Posted by Ricey

Wait.... what the fuck?!


I'm sorry, but I could of sworn you just said the SG was broken. How in hell is the SG suppose to be fixed then? lol.

Bang it with a wrench.

Seriously, it would be good to know what the older values were, and play around with them until we come up with what isn't TOO strong, nor too weak. That's something we testers CAN do, and it'll take minutes for the Devs to implement, rather than a complete overhaul(which honestly, isn't needed).

[Ricey]

Originally Posted by Iggy

Bang it with a wrench.

Seriously, it would be good to know what the older values were, and play around with them until we come up with what isn't TOO strong, nor too weak. That's something we testers CAN do, and it'll take minutes for the Devs to implement, rather than a complete overhaul(which honestly, isn't needed).

I banged your mom with my wrench

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by Iggy

Bang it with a wrench.

Seriously, it would be good to know what the older values were, and play around with them until we come up with what isn't TOO strong, nor too weak. That's something we testers CAN do, and it'll take minutes for the Devs to implement, rather than a complete overhaul(which honestly, isn't needed).

...

http://www.fortress-forever.com/changelogs/2.0

http://www.fortress-forever.com/changelogs/2.1

The "if only we had the tools!" plea doesn't work when you've had the tools available to you for 2 years.

[Iggy]

I never said we didn't have the tools, just that we should use them. Thanks for the links, we should get some people on and start playing around with it!

[squeek.]

Yeah, I realized that as I was typing it. It's just frustrating. I don't know how much more we can encourage the actions that you seemingly just now are realizing possible.

Especially frustrating coming from you since you were in the beta when Mushy, cake, and I were doing exactly what you are talking about (before Mushy was a dev, and while I was either still a beta or just freshly a dev)...

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by squeek.

...

http://www.fortress-forever.com/changelogs/2.0

http://www.fortress-forever.com/changelogs/2.1

The "if only we had the tools!" plea doesn't work when you've had the tools available to you for 2 years.

Squeek I was told point blank by you that if I was in beta and could demonstrate winning on O AvD on 100% of playtests, that wouldn't necessarily bring about any changes regarding balance. Those are some great tools alright.

Besides my question is still getting sidestepped as to how these awful changes like killing sg push happened in the first place. Sure, you can argue there are many variables to consider and that's certainly true for some changes. But eliminating sg push was countered by what exactly? It's not rocket science to know that when you nerf D hard then give O boosts, the result won't be balanced. Adding very minor boosts to D long after the fact doesn't mean much either. Even with skim capping and hit slowing, a person is still moving faster towards the goal than he would being pushed back.

So how did this happen? Was it to satisfy the pickup crowd so that things were ph balanced for scouts, the weakest class in the game? FF defense has ALWAYS felt weaker than TFC, if it was to cater to them, how did these people get by in TFC?

I think the answer is you don't have any dev on your staff who plays AvD first and foremost. I think it's important to have perspective from an "expert." Same goes for pickups, pub CTF, fun/skill maps, etc. Playing it every now and again isn't the same thing. You can say that you want devs to be well rounded, but the proof that a change like this was made and remained unaddressed means they're not rounded enough. If you do have someone like that, they certainly don't have much impact. These changes sounded like If you did have an AvD person I imagine the conversation for 2.1 would have gone like this:


Devs: Hey, lets reduce push to almost nothing so we can make caps easier for O!

AvD Dev: Wow, that sounds like a bad idea, balance is getting really shaky already what with jump pads and flame jumping and this is a really big nerf to D. How are they going to compensate?

Devs: Skill!

AvD Dev: That's unlikely to change much from previous versions.

Devs: Skim cap!

AvD Dev: That's still not going to stop players from flying in to cap

Devs: Hmm, maybe we shouldn't do this then. Or come up with another plan that won't screw with AvD so much.


whereas it seems to have gone like this:


Devs: Hey, lets reduce push to almost nothing so we can make caps easier for O!

Testers: Hey it works, people are getting more caps!

Devs: High five!

[Iggy]

Originally Posted by squeek.

Yeah, I realized that as I was typing it. It's just frustrating. I don't know how much more we can encourage the actions that you seemingly just now are realizing possible.

Especially frustrating coming from you since you were in the beta when Mushy, cake, and I were doing exactly what you are talking about (before Mushy was a dev, and while I was either still a beta or just freshly a dev)...

I knew before(on Scuzzy's server) that we could do it, and I remember several times when we did... but on the new server, I wasn't sure if the commands had changed, and my work has been too busy for me to concentrate on this for the past few weeks.

[[AE] 82694]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

Besides my question is still getting sidestepped as to how these awful changes like killing sg push happened in the first place.

This is what happens when things get balanced for the higher skilled players and not somewhere in the middle.

If you shoot for balance at an intermediate point then it's not unattainable for the newcomer and still has some challenge for the more advanced player.

Or you set server.cfg settings for advanced(competitive) play and one for public(newcomers). But this will never happen because it's "more important to keep FF the same for everybody" and as such it will most certainly trend more to the competitive players so those of us with lesser skills or that are just starting will keep on having to play a game for more advanced players or just don't play.

[CHURCHMOUTH]

i think the current sg is completely awesome tbh

[Bridget]

Originally Posted by CHURCHMOUTH

i think the current sg is completely awesome tbh

Yeah because you can conc past it now without gettin' all madsad. (´ー`)y-~~

[chilledsanity]

[AE] 82694: Yeah, I've never understood why that aspect is so important when the difference between pubs and pickups is like night and day anyway. The argument I've heard before is that it would divide the community. It looks like it split it anyway.


CHURCHMOUTH: Mind if I ask what you like about it? It's weaker now than it is in any other TF game. I guess if you only play offense there's a lot to like about it. The only positive thing I can think of is how fast the build time is, though I personally think that's an unwarranted trade off.

[Crazycarl]

I'm not sure I remember why the push was reduced but it probably didn't have to do with "higher skilled players". More like new players who don't know how to corner-snipe or conc past it would get raped by the push. If it hits you once with high push then you're caught and probably have no chance of getting past it.

Anyway none of us devs have really agreed on what the sg's balance should be--health vs. effectiveness, lifespan(which is map-dependant anyway), speed vs. push vs. damage--so somebody works a solution, the betas don't have a problem with it, and it ships.

We play about 50% ID maps in the beta tests, BTW. I have noticed some really fast capping on many maps. Sentries are better at holding now, but you don't always get a chance to build one up.

Squeek I was told point blank by you that if I was in beta and could demonstrate winning on O AvD on 100% of playtests, that wouldn't necessarily bring about any changes regarding balance. Those are some great tools alright.

Being in the beta puts you in an advisory role. You would provide information and we would act on it as we saw fit. There's no guarantee that anyone will do anything. The beta has so many differences from the current release that criticising the release is rather meaningless for us going forward.

[Raynian]

There's one thing anyone can agree on about SGs.

-Increase the push rate.
There's no reason a medic should be able to walk up to an SG while under constant fire. (a la Destroy) It should keep everyone away except for concers and heavies (and even for concers, throw them off course a bit). Helps OvD immensely, makes AIR CONTROL (remember when that took skill? do you?) harder.

A few other minor things have been brought up and discussed a bit.

-Increase htibox of the SG, so the engi is more protected.
I fully agree with this.

-Make repairing take less cells, or slow down the rate of fire on the nailgun/sng.
Right now, I think a full clip of nails from a medic will bring an engi to no ammo and leave the SG weak enough for a few shotties to destroy it. That's fine by my book. BUT, a medic can blow his entire load in about 10 seconds. This leaves practically no time for a teammate to assist the engineer if he's under duress. Halve or just reduce by a quarter the firing rate. (This also indirectly buffs the HW, as the SNG is the primary weapon used against him.)

-Increase turn speed
If this is done, just barely. I don't mind circlestrafing, but it is a bit silly to have fatties do it no problemo.

-Have upgrade cells be spent in portions, similar to TF2
No. If you're getting nailed and there's a short pause in the fire, you don't want to be wasting 25 cells when that could be used to keep the gun alive. Also, pro players know that if they have a L2 SG and 140 cells, they can drop 20 cells to keep their SG alive longer. (holy shit I am giving away trade secrets here you should write this down)

-Increase Health or Damage
Health isn't too necessary if the RoF on the NG/SNG is reduced, mentioned earlier. Damage...perhaps. If it IS buffed, increase the base build time of the SG by a second, and maybe slow the engi a few units.

[Crazycarl]

-bigger hitbox means it will take more damage. Also I hate it when hitboxes don't match up with the visual model.

-We've taken steps in beta to make nails less of a problem.

--repeatedly clanging to upgrade is annoying. However I don't really like making the engy mess around with cells. IMO it doesn't make playing engy more fun.

-I could see turn speed go faster. If you get in behind the gun you are relatively safe, which isn't that great.

[angrypyro]

I think the SG's role needs to be figured out first before what change needs to be made is known. Is the SG going to be used to take out light offense like the medic or scout? Then increase the push and lock on rate but keep its health weak so that they are vulnerable to MIRVs. On the other hand if it is going to be used to keep heavier offense away, then keep the push and lock on rate the same and just buff up its health so that it isn't destroyed so easily. Whatever role the SG doesn't fulfill should go to the other defense classes.

[moosh]

Originally Posted by Raynian

-Increase the push rate.
There's no reason a medic should be able to walk up to an SG while under constant fire. (a la Destroy) It should keep everyone away except for concers and heavies (and even for concers, throw them off course a bit). Helps OvD immensely, makes AIR CONTROL (remember when that took skill? do you?) harder.

this. I can't even count how many times a medic has come from the security button passage and nailed+grenaded my sg and it died even when I wrenched it. Shit is whacko.

[[AE] 82694]

Originally Posted by moosh

this. I can't even count how many times a medic has come from the security button passage and nailed+grenaded my sg and it died even when I wrenched it. Shit is whacko.

steam\SteamApps\SourceMods\FortressForever\scripts \ff_weapon_assaultcannon.txt

WeaponData
{
    // Weapon characteristics:
    "CycleTime"            "0.1"        // Rate of fire
    "CycleDecrement"        "2"        // Number of bullets fired per cycle

    "Damage"            "12"        // Damage from burst

    "RecoilAmount"            "0.4"        // Amount of recoil

    // Projectile weapons
    "Speed"                "-1"        // Speed for projectile to travel at
    
    // Hitscan weapons
    "Bullets"            "2"        // Bullets to shoot
    "BulletSpread"            "0.08"        // Spread of projectiles

    "PreReloadTime"            "-1"        // Time taken for the weapon to move to reload state
    "ReloadTime"            "-1"        // Time taken to reload a shell/rocket/etc
    "PostReloadTime"        "-1"        // Time taken to move weapon back to firing state

    "SpinTime"            "0.7"        // For AC

    "clip_size"            "-1"        
    "clip2_size"            "-1"        
    "default_clip"            "200"        
    "default_clip2"            "-1"        
    
    "primary_ammo"            "AMMO_SHELLS"
    "secondary_ammo"        "None"

    // Weapon data is loaded by both the Game and Client DLLs.
    "printname"            "#FF_WPNHUD_ASSAULTCANNON"
    "viewmodel"            "models/weapons/assaultcannon/v_assaultcannon.mdl"
    "playermodel"            "models/weapons/assaultcannon/w_assaultcannon.mdl"
    
    "anim_prefix"            "anim"
    "PlayerAnimationExtension" "assaultcannon"
    "bucket"            "4"
    "bucket_position"        "3"
    
    // Misc
    "weight"            "60"
    "item_flags"            "0"

    // Sounds for the weapon. There is a max of 16 sounds per category (i.e. max 16 "single_shot" sounds)
    SoundData
    {
        "empty"            "generic.empty"
        "special1"        "Assaultcannon.Windup"
        "special2"        "Assaultcannon.Winddown"
        "special3"        "assaultcannon.overheat"
        "double_shot"        "Assaultcannon.loop_shot" // changing to double_shot so I can add the rotate sound
        "single_shot"        "assaultcannon.single_shot"
        "burst"            "assaultcannon.rotate" // going to play for all players
        "stop"            "Weapon.StopSound"
    }

    // Weapon Sprite data is loaded by the Client DLL.
    TextureData
    {
        "weapon"
        {
                "font"        "WeaponIcons"
                "character"    "r"
        }
        "weapon_s"
        {    
                "font"        "WeaponIconsSelected"
                "character"    "r"
        }
        "ammo"
        {
                "font"        "WeaponIconsSmall"
                "character"    "4"
        }
        "crosshair"
        {
                "file"        "sprites/crosshairs"
                "x"            "0"
                "y"            "48"
                "width"        "24"
                "height"    "24"
        }
        "autoaim"
        {
                "file"        "sprites/crosshairs"
                "x"            "0"
                "y"            "48"
                "width"        "24"
                "height"    "24"
        }
        "deathnotice"
        {
                "font"        "StatusGlyphsSmall"
                "character"    "r"
        }
    }
    ModelBounds
    {
        Viewmodel
        {
            Mins    "-10 -4 -13"
            Maxs    "21 9 -1"
        }
        World
        {
            Mins    "-10 -7 -6"
            Maxs    "22 8 9"
        }
    }
}

steam\SteamApps\SourceMods\FortressForever\scripts \ff_weapon_supernailgun.txt

WeaponData
{
    // Weapon characteristics:
    "CycleTime"            "0.1"        // Rate of fire
    "CycleDecrement"        "2"        // Number of bullets fired per cycle

    "Damage"            "12"        // Damage per burst

    "RecoilAmount"            "0.02"        // Amount of recoil

    // Projectile weapons
    "Speed"                "2000"        // Speed for projectile to travel at
    
    // Hitscan weapons
    "Bullets"            "-1"        // Bullets to shoot
    "BulletSpread"            "-1"        // Spread of projectiles

    "PreReloadTime"            "-1"        // Time taken for the weapon to move to reload state
    "ReloadTime"            "-1"        // Time taken to reload a shell/rocket/etc
    "PostReloadTime"        "-1"        // Time taken to move weapon back to firing state

    "SpinTime"            "-1"        // For AC

    "clip_size"            "-1"
    "clip2_size"            "-1"
    "default_clip"            "60"
    "default_clip2"            "-1"    

    "primary_ammo"            "AMMO_NAILS"
    "secondary_ammo"        "None"


    // Weapon data is loaded by both the Game and Client DLLs.
    "printname"            "#FF_WPNHUD_SUPERNAILGUN"
    "viewmodel"            "models/weapons/supernailgun/v_supernailgun.mdl"
    "playermodel"            "models/weapons/supernailgun/w_supernailgun.mdl"
    
    "anim_prefix"            "anim"
    "PlayerAnimationExtension" "supernailgun"
    "bucket"            "3"
    "bucket_position"        "1"

    "weight"            "50"
    "item_flags"            "0"

    // Sounds for the weapon. There is a max of 16 sounds per category (i.e. max 16 "single_shot" sounds)
    SoundData
    {
        "empty"            "generic.empty"
        "single_shot"        "supernailgun.single_shot"
    }

    // Weapon Sprite data is loaded by the Client DLL.
    TextureData
    {
        "weapon"
        {
                "font"        "WeaponIcons"
                "character"    "j"
        }
        "weapon_s"
        {    
                "font"        "WeaponIconsSelected"
                "character"    "j"
        }
        "ammo"
        {
                "font"        "WeaponIconsSmall"
                "character"    "5"
        }
        "crosshair"
        {
                "file"        "sprites/crosshairs"
                "x"            "0"
                "y"            "48"
                "width"        "24"
                "height"    "24"
        }
        "autoaim"
        {
                "file"        "sprites/crosshairs"
                "x"            "0"
                "y"            "48"
                "width"        "24"
                "height"    "24"
        }
        "deathnotice"
        {
                "font"        "StatusGlyphsSmall"
                "character"    "j"
        }
    }
    ModelBounds
    {
        Viewmodel
        {
            Mins    "-10 -4 -13"
            Maxs    "21 9 -1"
        }
        World
        {
            Mins    "-10 -7 -6"
            Maxs    "22 8 9"
        }
    }
}

[CHURCHMOUTH]

what i like about the sentry... i really like the fact that its really easy to conc around and it makes this game so much easier for people like me who are already ballin at the game to begin with! oh my god how i love easy games ones that take like almost no skill at all to rape face in. i love fortress forever

cummon how can u say that to me it seems like the sentry is maybe trying to be a little more appealing to new players than anything. if anything the competitive community should be the ones bitching about sgs but i really dont think anyone in the scene gives a shit. we dont rely on sentry guns like you do maybe? sentry guns are a big pain in the ass on virtually any capture the flag map if the games being played properly. as a scout im always dying in the flag room if theres a gun up therefor a medic has to kill it. well if the medics killing a gun hes also getting shot at by a hwg and a soldier or a demo or something which makes the gun not totally a dead give away.

when you get thru bitching about the gun come try a pickup game out and see if its as easy as you think noobs

[Oreoman]

k i just played a pickup in FF pretty much right after we had a 5v5 ovd on redgiant in tfc and i noticed that the sg is a pussy and so is the hw

the sg is a pussy cuz i was able to stand there in its range and sng it down

the hw is a continuation from the last one the ac did not drop me it wasnt even really pushing me

in tfc if i had done both of those things i woulda gotten the shit kicked outta me
i still play tfc so maybe its just me but i find that playing defense is a pain more than in tfc and offense is just way too easy its like there is no need for the medic other than to kill the demo cuz that sg sure aint doing shit to ya

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by CHURCHMOUTH

when you get thru bitching about the gun come try a pickup game out and see if its as easy as you think noobs

See how long you can hold people back with the sg on an I/D or AvD map then. With soldiers and demomen ripping on it. I bet it won't last long in ksour, cornfield, dustbowl, palermo, napoli, avanti_classic, etc.

Originally Posted by Oreoman

in tfc if i had done both of those things i woulda gotten the shit kicked outta me
i still play tfc so maybe its just me but i find that playing defense is a pain more than in tfc and offense is just way too easy its like there is no need for the medic other than to kill the demo cuz that sg sure aint doing shit to ya

No, it's not just you. It's more like people have forgotten what TFC was like and you have debates raging on for years about whether the game has been skewed or not. It's like people are still debating on whether the Emperor is wearing any clothes or not.